Stations & other LTN based designs

Adds new train stops forming a highly configurable logistic network.

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Armitage
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Re: Stations & other LTN based designs

Post by Armitage »



I built this station after some trial and error. It doesn't look very ordered and will be rebuilt when i get it working correctly, but for now it works decently well. It has a memory which stores the items on the incoming train and feeds it back to the input so that i do not get a new train dispatched while my logistic robots work on hauling incoming items to their correct warehouses, found it earlier in the thread and it was a godsend. Using bobs inserters and some other of his mods.

I am having a problem though, when i load a train from the top side it usually overloads the train by a few items which is normally not a problem, but the instant it does the inserters on the requester side of the station turn on and each remove a stack, which makes the train under filled and then more are inserted and it repeats. Can i stop this from happening some way?

I could of course solve this by building another LTN station and splitting up the provider and requester parts, but there should be some way to make this work correctly. I know my problem is on the bottom side, the instant the train overfills the decider receives a positive number of whatever is loaded which it then feeds to the inserters due to it already being triggered from cargo wagons being present. Any ideas?

EDIT: Never mind, i changed to multiply by -2 instead of -1 on the arithmetic combinator for the requester part and now it seems to work correctly. Thanks for the mod, stellar work! It's tons of fun to tinker with together with circuit things. My game kind of stalled 40 hours or so ago when i got this mod and stopped expanding my factory in favor of expanding my train network :) .
Last edited by Armitage on Mon May 04, 2020 12:11 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Stations & other LTN based designs

Post by geomod87 »

I'm starting to get LTN hooked up. I'm using this set of blueprints for my stations.

viewtopic.php?f=194&t=47773

I'm have trouble trying to get the fluid provider station to actually dispense fluid via the circuited pumps. I see the station sends a signal to a combinator which converts the value to a negative, then checks if that value is greater than 0, which should output L. I'm not quite sure I understand this signalling. All of the pumps are enabled when L > 100 and hooked up to the combinator with input>0 -> L.

The schedules are all getting created properly, a train pulls up to get loaded, and has it's unload station in it's schedule, but the pumps never activate and the train won't load and just times out. (completely empty train btw). Is there something I need to input into the combinator (in lieu of L maybe) to get this working?

https://imgur.com/a/0dv8ZJE

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Re: Provider/Requester in one stop

Post by jakejakobs »

Optera wrote:
Thu Jul 20, 2017 7:03 am
Basic Provider & Requester
This stop can supply/request any number of items.
To prevent timing issues (stop output is some ticks faster than the yellow combinator) it's waiting until train decoding signals are available before sending unloading signals.
Unloading logic uses 2 times unload amount to prevent unloading provided material once a train is slightly overloaded.


2020-02-18-20-26-28-6665583.png

Pro:
  • very versatile
  • fast loading/unloading
Con:
  • sorting multiple items from steel chests (I'm using merging chests and loaders)
  • inserters can lock up
    requires some tuning between stack size bonus and locked slots/wagon to prevent stuck inserters.

Logistic Provider & Requester for LTN 1.10.13
This is the version I use for my supply trains. Same principle as above, but it also makes use of train composition to activate only when a cargo wagon is parked in a loading bay.


2019-07-30-22-34-06-0663710.png

Pro:
  • extremely versatile
  • bots will automatically sort items from active provider
Con:
  • slow loading/unloading, only useful for small amounts
  • inserters can lock up
When I try to import the following: Basic Provider & Requester

Error while importing string:
Unknown virtual-signal name: ltn-position-Express-Cargo-Wagon

I tried to use your train mod but its dependet on your color mod which they say is now dereciated.

Just thought I would let you know.

Image

Hans

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Re: Stations & other LTN based designs

Post by mrvn »

Armitage wrote:
Sun May 03, 2020 11:57 pm
I am having a problem though, when i load a train from the top side it usually overloads the train by a few items which is normally not a problem, but the instant it does the inserters on the requester side of the station turn on and each remove a stack, which makes the train under filled and then more are inserted and it repeats. Can i stop this from happening some way?

I could of course solve this by building another LTN station and splitting up the provider and requester parts, but there should be some way to make this work correctly. I know my problem is on the bottom side, the instant the train overfills the decider receives a positive number of whatever is loaded which it then feeds to the inserters due to it already being triggered from cargo wagons being present. Any ideas?

EDIT: Never mind, i changed to multiply by -2 instead of -1 on the arithmetic combinator for the requester part and now it seems to work correctly. Thanks for the mod, stellar work! It's tons of fun to tinker with together with circuit things. My game kind of stalled 40 hours or so ago when i got this mod and stopped expanding my factory in favor of expanding my train network :) .
I usually multiply by -2 as well. That works well when your request amount is larger than what you can load in one inserter swing.

The alternative is to add some comparators to the inserters so most only work if the amount is >= 12*N (where N is the number of inserters that will be active) and have one inserter where the amount sets the stack size override. That way the inserters will never load more than indicated. I use that for the market place where requests could be 400 iron plates or 1 nuclear reactor. You do not want to load in 48 nuclear reactors when only 1 is requested.

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Re: Provider/Requester in one stop

Post by Optera »

jakejakobs wrote:
Wed Jul 22, 2020 10:04 am
When I try to import the following: Basic Provider & Requester

Error while importing string:
Unknown virtual-signal name: ltn-position-Express-Cargo-Wagon

I tried to use your train mod but its dependet on your color mod which they say is now dereciated.

Just thought I would let you know.

Image

Hans
Thanks for notifying me.
It's annoying how loading a game with signals missing gracefully migrates while importing blueprints throws a fit.
I took a new set of bp strings using only LTN, hopefully getting rid of that for good now.

Also that's the 2nd time I had to de-deprecated Wagon Colors.

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Re: Stations & other LTN based designs

Post by syncness »

[e] posted in wrong place. Sorry.

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Re: Stations & other LTN based designs

Post by dakkar »

I could need some help understanding the "LTN Provider & Requester v2.3" blueprint.
Where do I configure, what should be provided? And what should be requested?

I tried to put a positive value in the both of the CC, but nothing gets ordered by the requester chest?

A little usage section would be awesome :D when I have it working, it's easier to understand/debug it :D

Thanks
Dakky

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Re: Stations & other LTN based designs

Post by ssilk »

Follow the signal line that goes out from the lamp Of the LTN stop. That is the input for this stop. Negative values: request, positive: provide.
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Re: Blueprint's Don't place Station

Post by Ringkeeper »



I have this Blueprint for an universal provider with your filter for stuff that should not be available to the network.

When ever a 1-1 (so 1 waggon only) arrives the first and the fourth set the request for the items.

I have no clue why this happens. Any idea?

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Re: Blueprint's Don't place Station

Post by Optera »

Ringkeeper wrote:
Wed Sep 23, 2020 11:52 am
I have this Blueprint for an universal provider with your filter for stuff that should not be available to the network.

When ever a 1-1 (so 1 waggon only) arrives the first and the fourth set the request for the items.

I have no clue why this happens. Any idea?
moved to design thread

Not sure about the error, it seemed to work fine for me.
However I fixed the wiring mess and removed a pointless combinator.


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Re: Stations & other LTN based designs

Post by Ringkeeper »

works :) thanks a lot.

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Re: Stations & other LTN based designs

Post by Evilness »

I have a question about the Requester station posted on the first page. I assume that the setup is supposed to filter unwanted items i.e. not unload them. But the station which is outputting train contents is connected to combinator output so anything in the train will set filter. Am I missing something here? The station combinator of the requester station doesn't output what is supposed to be on the train either (this only works for provider stations), so it seems to me that this couldn't work anyway.

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Re: Stations & other LTN based designs

Post by Optera »

Evilness wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 6:24 pm
The station combinator of the requester station doesn't output what is supposed to be on the train either (this only works for provider stations), so it seems to me that this couldn't work anyway.
Wrong, the combinator always outputs expected inventory so loading = expected inventory - current inventory and unloading = current inventory - expected inventory.

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Re: Stations & other LTN based designs

Post by Evilness »

Optera wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 9:06 pm
Evilness wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 6:24 pm
The station combinator of the requester station doesn't output what is supposed to be on the train either (this only works for provider stations), so it seems to me that this couldn't work anyway.
Wrong, the combinator always outputs expected inventory so loading = expected inventory - current inventory and unloading = current inventory - expected inventory.
Lets say what you propose is true. Expected inventory has to be higher than actual available inventory in the train (and it is). So when a train comes it requests +8.2k copper ore, with 8k space.
8.2k-8k=200, positive number so filter is set and train loads fully.
Next comes unloading
Current inventory-expected inventory= 8k-8.2k=-200, so the train will never unload any copper. Note that it will unload anthing it is not expectig because the filter will be set by items in the train.
Clearly you are wrong and the unloading will only work if expected inventory is not outputted as I said.
The correct way to set unloading filter is actually to take the negative of current amount in storage+requested amount to set filter. Note requested ammount is negative number so negating it will make it positive. This will not only unload the correct items but also the correct amount.

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Re: Stations & other LTN based designs

Post by Optera »

Evilness wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 12:50 pm
Clearly you are wrong and the unloading will only work if expected inventory is not outputted as I said.
Yeah certainly.
Thanks for telling me how my mod and station designs I've been using for 2 years work. :roll:
Evilness wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 12:50 pm
The correct way to set unloading filter is actually to take the negative of current amount in storage+requested amount to set filter. Note requested ammount is negative number so negating it will make it positive. This will not only unload the correct items but also the correct amount.
That will not cycle through different items for multi item requesters.
Partially unloading is not required. Only load what is requested in the first place.

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Re: Stations & other LTN based designs

Post by Evilness »

Optera wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 5:26 pm
Evilness wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 12:50 pm
Clearly you are wrong and the unloading will only work if expected inventory is not outputted as I said.
Yeah certainly.
Thanks for telling me how my mod and station designs I've been using for 2 years work. :roll:
I presented arguments how the station should work. I am open to being wrong, At the end of the day I just want to understand how stations work, that is why I asked a question here in the first place. You did not attempt to refute any of my arguments nor did you answer my question in the first place. Instead you come out saying that you made the mod, therefore you cant be wrong. The fact that stations work means nothing, things in Factorio can often work unintentionally. Also did you know that when you make a software and it does not work as intended, this is called a bug? Did you also know that different bugs can manifest in different system environments? Well you should know now.
Not I am not uasually as smug and insulting, but you started it when I politely asked my first question.
See the attached picture for proof that my requester station clearly does not output requested amount.

Image
Image
Image
image uploader

I tried your blueprint as well, same result.
Evilness wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 12:50 pm
The correct way to set unloading filter is actually to take the negative of current amount in storage+requested amount to set filter. Note requested ammount is negative number so negating it will make it positive. This will not only unload the correct items but also the correct amount.

That will not cycle through different items for multi item requesters.
Partially unloading is not required. Only load what is requested in the first place.
Yes this is indeed an issue with stack filter inserters. Not with regular filter inserters though.

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Re: Stations & other LTN based designs

Post by Optera »

Download the demo map to see how LTN is supposed to work.

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Re: Stations & other LTN based designs

Post by Evilness »

Optera wrote:
Fri Nov 20, 2020 6:01 am
Download the demo map to see how LTN is supposed to work.
So, I downloaded the map, went the extra mile and removed all other mods, just to prove you wrong. Surprise, surprise, I was right and you were wrong.

First a picture of demo unloading station, it does not output expected train content, like I said.
Image

Next the "filtering" functionality of demo filtered unloading station. I put some random items in the train to see if they will unload. And indeed as I said:
Evilness wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 12:50 pm
Lets say what you propose is true. Expected inventory has to be higher than actual available inventory in the train (and it is). So when a train comes it requests +8.2k copper ore, with 8k space.
8.2k-8k=200, positive number so filter is set and train loads fully.
Next comes unloading
Current inventory-expected inventory= 8k-8.2k=-200, so the train will never unload any copper. Note that it will unload anthing it is not expectig because the filter will be set by items in the train.
"Wrong" items unloaded:
Image

Lastly the train schedule, which was left as it was:
Image

I hate to bring it to you,
Optera wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 5:26 pm
Yeah certainly.
Thanks for telling me how my mod and station designs I've been using for 2 years work. :roll:
but you didn't notice that this design doesn't work for two years.

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Re: Stations & other LTN based designs

Post by Unsaying »

I've spent about ten hours trying to get this thing figured out, but no luck so far.

Is there just a 'basic functionality guide' anywhere?

I don't want trains that carry more than one type of good or trains that carry more than is requested and need to be cleaned out at the depot. I just want basic functionality, where trains carrying full loads of one type of item are called when needed, unload completely, and go back to their depot.

Can anyone recommend a build or post? Or even just where to start?

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Re: Stations & other LTN based designs

Post by Evilness »

Unsaying wrote:
Sat Nov 21, 2020 4:45 am
I've spent about ten hours trying to get this thing figured out, but no luck so far.

Is there just a 'basic functionality guide' anywhere?

I don't want trains that carry more than one type of good or trains that carry more than is requested and need to be cleaned out at the depot. I just want basic functionality, where trains carrying full loads of one type of item are called when needed, unload completely, and go back to their depot.

Can anyone recommend a build or post? Or even just where to start?
Hello Unsaying
Apart from this thread, where desgns are posted, there is also a manual posted by the author:
viewtopic.php?t=51072
The manual contains the demo map you can check out and further links, but I would especially recommend linked video by Diablo:
https://youtu.be/ZtcKlNous9o

There is also a compilation of designs on Factorio prints:
https://factorioprints.com/view/-KpbH6bzIae1s5eo0g3s

Another guide I found is on Imgur:
https://imgur.com/r/factorio/5l47h3i

Since you say you only want basic functionality using the filtered loader and any unloader station linked in this thread will do great for you. See the first page for details or just copy the blueprint here.
You can use just a station for depot, no fancy stuff needed there.
Optera wrote:
Thu Jul 20, 2017 6:44 am
Requester

Provider

Best regards

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