Stations & other LTN based designs

Adds new train stops forming a highly configurable logistic network.

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Re: Stations & other LTN based designs

Post by Optera »

Evilness wrote:
Fri Nov 20, 2020 6:15 pm
So, I downloaded the map, went the extra mile and removed all other mods, just to prove you wrong. Surprise, surprise, I was right and you were wrong.

First a picture of demo unloading station, it does not output expected train content, like I said.
Image
The train contains iron ore, the schedule says iron ore == 0 so expected content is nothing.
Evilness wrote:
Fri Nov 20, 2020 6:15 pm
Next the "filtering" functionality of demo filtered unloading station. I put some random items in the train to see if they will unload. And indeed as I said:
Evilness wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 12:50 pm
Lets say what you propose is true. Expected inventory has to be higher than actual available inventory in the train (and it is). So when a train comes it requests +8.2k copper ore, with 8k space.
8.2k-8k=200, positive number so filter is set and train loads fully.
Next comes unloading
Current inventory-expected inventory= 8k-8.2k=-200, so the train will never unload any copper. Note that it will unload anthing it is not expectig because the filter will be set by items in the train.
"Wrong" items unloaded:
Image
  • When did you put the items in the train?
    LTNs combinator only updates when a train enters the station.
  • The demo still contains v1 requester designs.
    I never bothered updating them as the provider ensures there's no false cargo.
    If you had read the description of v2 requesters you'd know train inventory signals from the stop reach inserters a few ticks sooner than the signal path from LTN output through the inverter resulting in incorrect item unloading.
Evilness wrote:
Fri Nov 20, 2020 6:15 pm
I hate to bring it to you,
but you didn't notice that this design doesn't work for two years.
Drop the attitude if you want assistance.

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Re: Stations & other LTN based designs

Post by Evilness »

Optera wrote:
Sun Nov 22, 2020 6:22 am
The train contains iron ore, the schedule says iron ore == 0 so expected content is nothing.
Indeed, the station is unloading, so the schedule is expecting iron ore to be unloaded, thus go to 0. Perhaps that is why the station combinator does not output iron ore as positive number. Again I get no train content information in my unloading stations, nor does this information get produced in the demo map.
Optera wrote:
Sun Nov 22, 2020 6:22 am
When did you put the items in the train?
I put items in the train after it parked, so this isn't really realistic behavior. Of course the correct way to test would be to put items in the train before it parks.
However, since the unloading station combinator does not output expected content I don't see how it would make a difference.
I already explained my issue with the setup before, but you never addressed it. So again, the issue is:
  • Your requester setup calculates current train content-expected train content and sets filter with the result
  • Train contents are: 7k copper ore and 1k iron ore
  • Expected content is 8k copper ore (if it actually works)
  • Result is: -1k copper ore and 1k iron ore
  • Filter is set to iron ore and only iron ore gets unloaded which is the wrong item
Optera wrote:
Sun Nov 22, 2020 6:22 am
LTNs combinator only updates when a train enters the station.
[*]The demo still contains v1 requester designs.
I never bothered updating them as the provider ensures there's no false cargo.
If you had read the description of v2 requesters you'd know train inventory signals from the stop reach inserters a few ticks sooner than the signal path from LTN output through the inverter resulting in incorrect item unloading.
As explained previously this is not relevant here as not even the basic functionality works.

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Re: Stations & other LTN based designs

Post by Optera »

Evilness wrote:
Sun Nov 22, 2020 8:58 am
I already explained my issue with the setup before, but you never addressed it. So again, the issue is:
  • Your requester setup calculates current train content-expected train content and sets filter with the result
  • Train contents are: 7k copper ore and 1k iron ore
  • Expected content is 8k copper ore (if it actually works)
No, expected is 0 copper ore and 1k iron ore
Expected is always AFTER un-loading is completed.

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Re: Stations & other LTN based designs

Post by Evilness »

Optera wrote:
Sun Nov 22, 2020 11:12 am
Evilness wrote:
Sun Nov 22, 2020 8:58 am
I already explained my issue with the setup before, but you never addressed it. So again, the issue is:
  • Your requester setup calculates current train content-expected train content and sets filter with the result
  • Train contents are: 7k copper ore and 1k iron ore
  • Expected content is 8k copper ore (if it actually works)
No, expected is 0 copper ore and 1k iron ore
Expected is always AFTER un-loading is completed.
Ah, yes that was the missing information here. Went back, tested it again and it works this way.
Seems I was wrong after all. Kudos to you.

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Re: Logistic Network to LTN stop filter

Post by bobdabuilda »

Optera wrote:
Thu Jul 20, 2017 7:06 am
Hooking Logistic Network directly to LTN stops has some side effects due to how logistic network reads its contents.
1) Logistic network doesn't show items in transit as available potentially causing another delivery in a bot unloading station design.
2) If bots try to pick up more than available the number becomes negative, which is LTN's trigger for requesting this amount.

To combat these effects I put together this signal filter.

2017-06-30 Logistic Filter.jpg
Green sets the amounts of desired items as usual for LTN with negative sign.
Red (optional) filters signals entirely.

Note:
When used with LTN stops it will require an additional cc setting LTN parameters.
Hi Optera - loving your mod, and getting a bit more serious in my base (currently working on 3k SPM) now, and working on setting up some bot-based train stations. However, I've been having trouble getting the stations to work how I'd like them to due to issues reading the contents.

Reading the above, it SEEMS to be what I am after, but I'm not too sure about the final note re: needing an additional CC to use it with an LTN station - not too sure why you would provide an example with a non-LTN station, considering the examples are being provided in demonstration of LTN??

Anyways, I've been trying to work out how to get it set up, but just can't wrap my head around how to incorporate that last CC into the mix. Any chance you can provide a better example of a requestor station, using an LTN station and some active provider boxes, perhaps??

Cheers,
bob.

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Re: Stations & other LTN based designs

Post by Optera »

You connect the logistic filter like this:

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Re: Stations & other LTN based designs

Post by bobdabuilda »

Thanks for the response :)

I was totally overthinking it and should have just tried it, instead of trying to think my way through it lol. Didn't even consider that I literally just needed to hook it all up to the LTN station via a CC for the LTN-specific settings and it'd do the rest...

Thanks again for the info :)

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Re: Stations & other LTN based designs

Post by pro5 »

I share my 3 stations: Extra fast provider. Extra fast requester. 100% accurate provider.
- Extra fast provider -
scr-b1.jpg
scr-b1.jpg (241.54 KiB) Viewed 11337 times


Pluses:
- Load takes 2-3 sec! (my inserter hand is 24).
- No need lock slots (set to 0).
- Can load 1 or 2 wagoon.

Minuses:
- Always load full wagon. Request station should request minimum 1 wagons (request thresold should be 60 or 120 stacks).
- Can delivery only 1 item at same time. (can't delivery 2 items together)
- Can load only items with max stack size >= 5. (You can't delivery sattelites, because stack size of sattelite = 1).

Info:
- All inserters sets dot at center. When inserters have angle < 90 and dot places at center - then inserter work faster.
- 3 combinators fixes this LTN bug: viewtopic.php?f=214&t=90090 If LTN developer will fix this bug, then you may delete all combinators and connect inserters direct to output of station. And will removed all limitations (7 inserter per wagon, Max hand 42, Min stack size 5)
- Value of central combinator should be = 5 x 60 (wagoon size) = 300.
- How this works: Example: If requested irons, then station emit irons. Inserters sets white filters - load only irons. But when arrive train, inserters drop previus items from hand to wagons. Backwards inserters sets black filter - unload from wagon to warehouse all items except irons.

- Extra fast requester -
(used together with extra fast provider)
scr-b2.jpg
scr-b2.jpg (213.93 KiB) Viewed 11337 times


If you want delivery maximum 1 wagons, then change thresold from 120 to 60. And set max train length from 3 to 2.

- 100% Accurate Provider -
scr-a1.jpg
scr-a1.jpg (302.46 KiB) Viewed 11337 times


Pluses:
- Load exact amount of requested items. You may delivery at time several items with any max stack sizes and any counts. And inserters hand may be any.
Example: You may request from this staions: 3 sattelites + 921 irons + 16 barels + 2733 stones. Your inserter's hand may be 3 or 12, or 55, or 123, or 1000 (any). Anyway, the station will load exact count of each items.
- No need lock slots.

Minuses:
- Can load only 1 wagon. No way to expand design for 2 or more wagons.

Info:
All inserters (except load to warehouse) should be RED (bob's) No faster. (Rotating speed <= 864 degrees / sec). And angle should be = 90. If you upgrade the inserters to more faster, or set smallest angle - then combinators do not have time to update status, and will load not exact.

Used mods:
- LTN
- Bob's (Inserters, locomotive MK3 , wagons MK3 - 60 stacks)
- Angel's refining (Warehouse). But you may use any other storage 6x6.
Book of the stations placed here: https://factorioprints.com/view/-MPqNgIa5R4UJM5I9RWZ

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Re: Stations & other LTN based designs

Post by mnvoronin »

Optera wrote:
Wed Nov 25, 2020 4:23 pm
You connect the logistic filter like this:
What's the purpose of the bottom constant combinator in this one? I don't quite understand it.

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Re: Depot, Requester, Provider

Post by Teura »

Optera wrote:
Thu Jul 20, 2017 6:44 am
Requester v2 for LTN 1.10.13
This station can handle multiple items and will only unload items scheduled to unload.
Fixes the old requesters glitch of moving one cycle of any item in inventory before the subtracted signal properly kicks in.

2019-08-03-12-44-25-0902456.png
Possibly a stupid question, but wouldn't this just read the train inventory as that is set on the train stop with a connection to inserters and thus, set stack filters for all items inside?

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Re: Depot, Requester, Provider

Post by mrvn »

Teura wrote:
Wed Jan 12, 2022 3:41 pm
Optera wrote:
Thu Jul 20, 2017 6:44 am
Requester v2 for LTN 1.10.13
This station can handle multiple items and will only unload items scheduled to unload.
Fixes the old requesters glitch of moving one cycle of any item in inventory before the subtracted signal properly kicks in.

2019-08-03-12-44-25-0902456.png
Possibly a stupid question, but wouldn't this just read the train inventory as that is set on the train stop with a connection to inserters and thus, set stack filters for all items inside?
No, the reverse. It's supposed to delay the signals so the train content and expected content (after unloading) arrive at the subtractor at the same time.

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Re: Stations & other LTN based designs

Post by pro5 »

I updated my LTN stations book: https://factorioprints.com/view/-NCoowNjx1iMexGFLFz1
Changes:
- Wagon size changed from 60 stacks to 80.
- Removed anti-bug combinators. To fix this bug uncheck map-setting: "Providers output existing cargo". This option exists in LTN 1.16.8 or newer.
- Changed warehouse to angel's warehouse.
- Added fluid providers/requesters.

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Re: Stations & other LTN based designs

Post by cmnielsen »

pro5 wrote:
Mon Sep 26, 2022 2:47 am
I updated my LTN stations book: https://factorioprints.com/view/-NCoowNjx1iMexGFLFz1
Can you please link to all mods used? (like you do with LTN Combinator Modernized)?

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Re: Stations & other LTN based designs

Post by pro5 »

cmnielsen wrote:
Sun Nov 06, 2022 8:04 am
pro5 wrote:
Mon Sep 26, 2022 2:47 am
I updated my LTN stations book: https://factorioprints.com/view/-NCoowNjx1iMexGFLFz1
Can you please link to all mods used? (like you do with LTN Combinator Modernized)?
I do not know exactly links.
I created the blueprints while playing SeaBlock modpack.

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Re: Stations & other LTN based designs

Post by Optera »

pro5 wrote:
Thu Nov 10, 2022 12:05 pm
I do not know exactly links.
I created the blueprints while playing SeaBlock modpack.
I used a Creative World with only LTN enabled to prevent errors in blueprints for others without the same mods.

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Re: Stations & other LTN based designs

Post by dakkar »

Logistic Provider & Requester for LTN 1.10.13
This is the version I use for my supply trains. Same principle as above, but it also makes use of train composition to activate only when a cargo wagon is parked in a loading bay.
Can someone explain, how this one is configured? I don't get it :(

When I want to use it as requester (supply outpost) i need to set the required items with a negative number?
And what about the provider? Setting a postive number of the item i want to provide creates an order but the requester is not set to anything?

Edit: after some testing i learned:
As provider station I have to set to a postive number (i.e. 1k ammo)
As requester i have to set to a negative number (i.e. 100 ammo)
The items are ONLY transported to the providers requester chest as soon as a train is there. This makes it quite slow

The problem now is, that there are always created new orders to carry 100 ammo from provider to requester, although the requester has ammo set to -100. So in fact i guess I don't understand that setup :?

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Re: Stations & other LTN based designs

Post by Optera »

"Logistic Provider & Requester for LTN 1.10.13" was designed to connect entire logistics networks content to LTN without items sitting in buffer chests.
I use it for automated base building and restocking ammo and repair packs.

For higher volume use the buffered version "Basic Provider & Requester" or dedicated designs "Requester v2 for LTN 1.10.13" and "Provider".

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Re: Stations & other LTN based designs

Post by dakkar »

Optera wrote:
Fri Mar 17, 2023 5:59 am
"Logistic Provider & Requester for LTN 1.10.13" was designed to connect entire logistics networks content to LTN without items sitting in buffer chests.
I use it for automated base building and restocking ammo and repair packs.

For higher volume use the buffered version "Basic Provider & Requester" or dedicated designs "Requester v2 for LTN 1.10.13" and "Provider".
Thats exactly what i need. But my Requester Counterpart (the one with -100 ammo configured) keeps permanently requesting packs of size 100. although its active provider chests are waaaay more filled up with ammo.

But is my configuration correct? The requester ist set to the negative amount i want and the provider station to a positive amount?

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Re: Stations & other LTN based designs

Post by Optera »

Constantly feeding -100 ammo to LTN stops means always deliver 100 ammo.
What you need to feed to LTN is inventory - 100 ammo. With 100 threshold that'd trigger a delivery when there's 0 ammo left.
For 500 ammo in storage with 100 threshold use inventory - 600 ammo

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Re: Stations & other LTN based designs

Post by dakkar »

hmm so in the blueprint this "LTN inventory - X" is missing? sry for asking over and over again, but these factorio circuits are driving me nuts :-D

I was expecting to stamp down the bluprint:
* one in my base and in the CC wired to the LTN station I enter +1000 ammo (any random postive number?)
* one in my output and in the CC wired to the LTN I enter -500 ammo

This results in the endless delivery. When i understand you correctly, I need to wire the two active provider chests to the CC in order to get an postive number as long as there is enough ammo in the two chests?

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