Stations & other LTN based designs

Adds new train stops forming a highly configurable logistic network.

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npuldon
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Re: Stations & other LTN based designs

Post by npuldon »

Yeah, you have the setup right or the fluids will mix incorrectly. If you setup it up right, they don't mix. That's what all the pumps, circuits, and valving are for.
From the designer's notes:
"The check valves plus overflow valve is key to it functioning correctly. To add a new fluid to the station, the small tanks + pumps setup can be repeated. Configure the delivery in the station, and then set the pumps on a new block to use (fluid X) = 0, then when the fluid arrives, change it to (fluid X) > 0."

You are definitely correct that the design I proposed is slower but it also does a lot of fluids.

I'm not clear how rotating every 2nd tank in your design only does 4 fluids instead of 12. Are the unloading pumps not set independently?

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Re: Stations & other LTN based designs

Post by npuldon »

author's can't delete their own posts on this forum? :/

https://i.imgur.com/EudhbT4.png

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Re: Stations & other LTN based designs

Post by Optera »

npuldon wrote:
Fri Feb 22, 2019 4:30 pm
author's can't delete their own posts on this forum? :/

https://i.imgur.com/EudhbT4.png
I removed your double post.

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Re: Stations & other LTN based designs

Post by Optera »

npuldon wrote:
Fri Feb 22, 2019 4:29 pm
I'm not clear how rotating every 2nd tank in your design only does 4 fluids instead of 12. Are the unloading pumps not set independently?
The tanks in my design are connected to have a balanced buffer.

I'd build a station for 4 fluids to unload at full speed like this.
2019-02-22-18-15-43-1455657.png
2019-02-22-18-15-43-1455657.png (1.43 MiB) Viewed 4925 times
I don't consider having 4 fluids at a stop a good design. Having 2 per stop, adding more stops as needed for additional fluids generally doesn't need much more space and has better throughput and fluid balance between the tanks.

12 fluids cant be pumped directly into a tank so I never bothered with that, but it's theoretically possible.

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Re: Stations & other LTN based designs

Post by npuldon »

Thanks for the post. Is there a reason all the pumps and tanks are not just daisy chained or do you need to set the wires like that (spaghetti fest)?

I may take this design for areas where only 1-4 fluids are needed and change the tanks to PyMod tanks that are 30k 2x2s.

Cheers

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Re: Stations & other LTN based designs

Post by Optera »

npuldon wrote:
Fri Feb 22, 2019 5:23 pm
Thanks for the post. Is there a reason all the pumps and tanks are not just daisy chained or do you need to set the wires like that (spaghetti fest)?
That's my way of wiring everything irl and ig.
Daisy chaining always rubs me wrong, one faulty element takes down everything in the chain and finding the error takes ages. Wire everything parallel or in a tree and only the faulty part goes dark.
npuldon wrote:
Fri Feb 22, 2019 5:23 pm
I may take this design for areas where only 1-4 fluids are needed and change the tanks to PyMod tanks that are 30k 2x2s.
With 30k 2x2 tanks you could do 6 fluids per wagon easily at full speed if they don't connect to another when placed side by side.

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Re: Stations & other LTN based designs

Post by npuldon »

Yes, they don't connected side by side. good to know

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Re: Stations & other LTN based designs

Post by npuldon »

So, I either disable the stopout timer or have the catch at the depot right? I currently use Optera's depot design that turns off the station if anything is present in the wagons. This seems like a better place to do the catch (and LTN tracker mod will alert you at the depot) because it doesn't block the requester station.

Can the multifluid request stations presented recently be used without the stopout timer disabled?

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Re: Stations & other LTN based designs

Post by Optera »

npuldon wrote:
Fri Feb 22, 2019 5:36 pm
Can the multifluid request stations presented recently be used without the stopout timer disabled?
No.
To lock a train into a requester you first need to know what's really inside it, cue rant about train stops rounding 0.4 down to 0.

If you have to worry about locking trains at a requester without disabling stop timeout there's no way around enabling Schedule Circuit Conditions and using Inventory Sensor to send a red signal to the train via stop while there's any trace amount of fluid in a fluid wagon.

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Re: Stations & other LTN based designs

Post by npuldon »

Optera wrote:
Fri Feb 22, 2019 5:49 pm
No.
To lock a train into a requester you first need to know what's really inside it, cue rant about train stops rounding 0.4 down to 0.
Know if the devs are ever going to change that? I assume they know about the issue.

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Re: Stations & other LTN based designs

Post by Optera »

npuldon wrote:
Fri Feb 22, 2019 5:52 pm
Optera wrote:
Fri Feb 22, 2019 5:49 pm
No.
To lock a train into a requester you first need to know what's really inside it, cue rant about train stops rounding 0.4 down to 0.
Know if the devs are ever going to change that? I assume they know about the issue.
They know for a long time now.
You could bump this ancient plea to change rounding to always up: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=49274
I kinda lost hope this will change by now.

0.17 will remove residue fluids from pipes. Maybe that extends to tanks and wagons. Otherwise it wouldn't be hard to make LTN dump all fluids < 1 when leaving a requester.

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Re: Stations & other LTN based designs

Post by themadgunman »

Its a shame fluid wagons don't have multiple compartments like stacks so that you could simulate 2-3 individual tanks in one train which would make it much easier to carry multiple fluids in one train.

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Re: Stations & other LTN based designs

Post by Optera »

themadgunman wrote:
Sun Mar 10, 2019 8:38 pm
Its a shame fluid wagons don't have multiple compartments like stacks so that you could simulate 2-3 individual tanks in one train which would make it much easier to carry multiple fluids in one train.
Automating merged fluid deliveries are impossible, unless we get filter pumps. Which will never happen now that pipes are locked to a specific fluid.

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Re: Stations & other LTN based designs

Post by NeuralParity »

Optera wrote:
Fri Feb 22, 2019 4:20 pm
Yours is interesting but allowing multiple fluids through one pipe has several problems
c) 0.17 will even prevent connecting pipes of different fluids
Doesn't 0.17 entirely remove the need for any sort of wiring to unloading pumps? Unless you're doing some sort of multi-fluid transfer station, even with multiple different fluids getting unloaded, each pump will be locked to correct fluid because it's connected to something using that fluid.

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Re: Stations & other LTN based designs

Post by bcwhite »

The LTN is amazing, thanks for the work! Here's my complete train manifesto and blueprint book based upon it. It has various length provider and requester stations, plus a roboport serviced depot "hub".

https://factorioprints.com/view/-LaIPNgh8f16V8EwXXpW

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Re: Stations & other LTN based designs

Post by boran_blok »

So, I made a thinggie.

I had issues with double deliveries happening to outposts with roboports. What was happening that while the stuff was being moved by the bots from the active providers to the storage chests they were not counted as being in the network. This almost always caused a second delivery to be triggered.

I don't really mind overdelivery per-se but the extra train traffic is what I was mainly trying to avoid.

Therefore I made a memory cell that stores the arriving train contents for 60 seconds (configurable) and puts it out on red, if your request contents is also on red this prevents overdelivery as the bots now have 60 seconds to deliver the arrived goods to storage chests (the exact time has to be tweaked per outpost depending on storage chest distance and available logistics bots)

At the same time if usage at the outpost continues a new delivery will be triggered because there would be a shortage after the delivery anyways.

So anyways, here is the explaining image:
Factorio keep train contents for 60 seconds.png
Factorio keep train contents for 60 seconds.png (1.09 MiB) Viewed 4511 times
And this is the blueprint:


This does not contain any LTN specific elements so there might be a usage scenario for this outside of LTN as well.

Any suggestions and improvements always welcome.

Edit: I did some more tests and for exact numbers this does require the standard LTN filter setup on the filtered stack inserters. If you use unfiltered regular inserters they unload too fast (faster than 2 ticks) and on the second memory store tick not the entire train contents are stored.

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Re: Stations & other LTN based designs

Post by TwentyEighty »

I don't see a lot of multi fluid provider action anywhere so I'll post this.

Is there any better way to do this? Does this even make sense? I know this is modded but just asking about the principal.

Image

The pumps are set to "Everything < 0" and the decider combinators are set to "If anything > 0, output 1"

There are 3 fluids here, and the input to the decider combinators is their associated tank. So they each are saying "Tailings = 1" or "co2 = 1"

The input to the pumps is the output to the decider combinator, and the negative LTN output, and the positive Read Train Contents. So when a fluid wagon rolls up, the off pumps will see 1 Tailings plus -50k co2. Those stay off. The on pumps will see 1 c02 plus -50k co2. All the values are < 0 so those pumps turn on. So it feels hacky but I'm not seeing any problems in practice.

Is this a solved problem I'm just not finding anywhere?

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Re: Stations & other LTN based designs

Post by DaleStan »

Unless you're doing some serious magic with sending partially loaded wagons (why?) just enable the pumps that are associated with the fluid that the train wants.
Don't bother messing with how much is already on the train, and the pumps don't need to know how much is available. That is, connect the pumps to the station combinator, and set the CO2 pump to CO2>0.

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Re: Stations & other LTN based designs

Post by zOldBulldog »

I am an LTN novice. I got my initial stations going, and I am happily receiving my trains empty at the depot thanks to a simple design to load only as much as was requested.

For safety, my initial design only made the provider available when its chests were at least half full, and the requests where only made when there as at least space for half a chest. But... it bugs me that the trains don't travel full, increasing rail network congestion.

So I am toying with the idea of using two sets of chests, with a balancer between them, and to only request when the chests next to the train are empty. That would ensure a full chest set of buffer, while making all trains to travel fill and ensures space to fully unload.

QUESTION: Other than being a bit wasteful of space, are there any negatives to this approach?

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Re: Stations & other LTN based designs

Post by TwentyEighty »

DaleStan wrote:
Sat Apr 27, 2019 5:17 am
Unless you're doing some serious magic with sending partially loaded wagons (why?) just enable the pumps that are associated with the fluid that the train wants.
Don't bother messing with how much is already on the train, and the pumps don't need to know how much is available. That is, connect the pumps to the station combinator, and set the CO2 pump to CO2>0.
I guess I was trying to make it foolproof, in others words there is no action to take after placing a blueprint, just start pumping in liquid

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