old LTN discussion thread

Adds new train stops forming a highly configurable logistic network.

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Re: [Mod 0.14/0.15] Logistic Train Network 1.2.3

Post by TaztheRotten » Wed May 10, 2017 10:01 pm

Nagapito, try going to Options/Mods/Map, uncheck "finish loading", i believe it will fix you up.

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Re: [Mod 0.14/0.15] Logistic Train Network 1.2.3

Post by torne » Wed May 10, 2017 10:32 pm

Yeah; if you disable "finish loading" in the mod settings, it will stop adding the inactivity conditions. As long as all your provider stations only provide one type of item, this will be fine: sometimes you'll have inserters stuck with an item in their hands, but those items will just get inserted into the next train, which is picking up the same item type anyway so it doesn't matter.

If you have multi-item providers, then disabling this setting will probably cause some amount of contamination of your trains, and possibly stuck loading in some cases. Multi-item providers already require some circuit logic to load the correct item in the first place, so making sure that logic also only loads the correct *number* of those items isn't really any harder (especially in 0.15 where the train stop can output the train contents), and that's where the inactivity condition comes in handy: if the circuit logic doesn't manage to perfectly load the *exact* number it was supposed to (because of stack bonuses, etc) then the inactivity condition makes sure that the train waits for the circuit to trigger and stop the loading (maybe putting a few more items on the train than intended), instead of just departing instantly and leaving inserters potentially holding items.

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Re: [Mod 0.14/0.15] Logistic Train Network 1.2.3

Post by nagapito » Thu May 11, 2017 12:04 am

I dont think you really understood my situation...
This is my situation: http://imgur.com/a/0bNX9

That station is waiting for some order and so its reserved and no one can use it. But there is no order and has been like this for hours!
If I remove the station and place it again, it fixes it but... I dont know what consequences it might internally have, since clearly there is a lost order in the queue.

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Re: [Mod 0.14/0.15] Logistic Train Network 1.2.3

Post by Mobius1 » Thu May 11, 2017 12:36 am

nagapito wrote:I dont think you really understood my situation...
This is my situation: http://imgur.com/a/0bNX9

That station is waiting for some order and so its reserved and no one can use it. But there is no order and has been like this for hours!
If I remove the station and place it again, it fixes it but... I dont know what consequences it might internally have, since clearly there is a lost order in the queue.
You managed to import the JAX tanks to 0.15, nice. I suggest clicking on the station, check which train is scheduled to it and check that train's scheduled delivery order. If for some reason that train that is scheduled to that station is stuck in another station in a load/unload loop it will never reach that station its scheduled to go.

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Re: [Mod 0.14/0.15] Logistic Train Network 1.2.3

Post by Optera » Thu May 11, 2017 4:55 am

nagapito wrote:I dont think you really understood my situation...
This is my situation: http://imgur.com/a/0bNX9

That station is waiting for some order and so its reserved and no one can use it. But there is no order and has been like this for hours!
If I remove the station and place it again, it fixes it but... I dont know what consequences it might internally have, since clearly there is a lost order in the queue.
Replacing stops is no problem for LTN.
Trains will behave like with manual schedules and have the replaced station turn red. If you place down a new stop with same name they will continue towards it.
Internally LTN will remove all references to the old stop and create a new one, including the seemingly lost order.
The worst thing that will happen is trains en route being not registered as deliveries anymore and LTN will dispatch new trains. You can prevent that by not requesting anything while there are still old trains en route.

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Re: [Mod 0.14/0.15] Logistic Train Network 1.2.3

Post by nuhll » Thu May 11, 2017 8:20 am

TaztheRotten wrote:Nagapito, try going to Options/Mods/Map, uncheck "finish loading", i believe it will fix you up.
Sad, that you cant change that from station to station... but ill try it, thanks.

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Re: [Mod 0.14/0.15] Logistic Train Network 1.2.3

Post by ray4ever » Thu May 11, 2017 8:47 am

Hi all,

I would like to set up a compact, rail-based, factory for all items. To keep it compact and loading times still manageable, i would like to set up a LTN Station with stack filter inserters where a train (wagon position is in both cases the same) can be loaded and unloaded. My Problem is that when I use the "read train content" signal as the input for my stack filter inserters they would directly unload everything that I'm loading at the same time.

Another problem with multi item stack inserters is that i don't know how to set their stack size for a perfect count. E.g. if i want to load iron and copper, the filter would be set for iron. If all the iron is loaded the filter would switch to copper. But how do I generate a signal that i can use to control the stack size? It would have to represent the value of iron and if iron is zero it would represent the value of copper. Does anybody have a good solution for this?

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Re: [Mod 0.14/0.15] Logistic Train Network 1.2.3

Post by nagapito » Thu May 11, 2017 10:04 am

Mobius1 wrote:
nagapito wrote:I dont think you really understood my situation...
This is my situation: http://imgur.com/a/0bNX9

That station is waiting for some order and so its reserved and no one can use it. But there is no order and has been like this for hours!
If I remove the station and place it again, it fixes it but... I dont know what consequences it might internally have, since clearly there is a lost order in the queue.
You managed to import the JAX tanks to 0.15, nice. I suggest clicking on the station, check which train is scheduled to it and check that train's scheduled delivery order. If for some reason that train that is scheduled to that station is stuck in another station in a load/unload loop it will never reach that station its scheduled to go.
Seems I should had posted another screenshot with the station schedules, to show there are none. And another from the full list of trains to show all of them parked at the depot, with no pending orders.
This is not a delivery request that is stuck somewhere. This is a station that did fill the train but failed to unregister as waiting for a train. So now, LTN still thinks she is reserved when there is no train schedules and will probably never revert itself since LTN will never send a train there and be able to run the 'clear state' code to make it availble again.

In sum, this is not a misconfiguration that resulted in an inconsistence state of the trains. This is a bug in the code, one of those bugs hidden in very dark places, that occur so rarely that its almost impossible to find and debug. I do not expect any of us to have it again soon and much less Optera to find and fix the issue any time soon.
Optera wrote: Replacing stops is no problem for LTN.
Trains will behave like with manual schedules and have the replaced station turn red. If you place down a new stop with same name they will continue towards it.
Internally LTN will remove all references to the old stop and create a new one, including the seemingly lost order.
The worst thing that will happen is trains en route being not registered as deliveries anymore and LTN will dispatch new trains. You can prevent that by not requesting anything while there are still old trains en route.
Nice, what I wanted to know. Will replace it and if somehow it happens again, I will try to know more on how to reproduce it. I really dont expect it to happen again any time soon.

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Re: [Mod 0.14/0.15] Logistic Train Network 1.2.3

Post by Mobius1 » Thu May 11, 2017 3:57 pm

ray4ever wrote:Hi all,

I would like to set up a compact, rail-based, factory for all items. To keep it compact and loading times still manageable, i would like to set up a LTN Station with stack filter inserters where a train (wagon position is in both cases the same) can be loaded and unloaded. My Problem is that when I use the "read train content" signal as the input for my stack filter inserters they would directly unload everything that I'm loading at the same time.
Hook up the unloader inserters with a red wire comming from the yellow combinator of the LTN station, set each inserter with "Anything < 0" in "enable/disable" mode. Which means, whenever a train is "providing" stuff, the yellow combinator will output a negative signal allowing the inserters to operate but if the train is "requesting" stuff on the station, all the signals will be positive and the unloader inserters won't operate. Simple as that.
ray4ever wrote:Another problem with multi item stack inserters is that i don't know how to set their stack size for a perfect count. E.g. if i want to load iron and copper, the filter would be set for iron. If all the iron is loaded the filter would switch to copper. But how do I generate a signal that i can use to control the stack size? It would have to represent the value of iron and if iron is zero it would represent the value of copper. Does anybody have a good solution for this?
Do you REALLY need a perfect count of, say, 200 iron ore and 200 copper ore in the train, no more, no less? Or it can be 272 iron ore and 268 copper ore for example? The way I set up my stations I really don't care if they let a few spares on the train, they'll all be consumed anyway. So I do this:
1- Red wire from yellow combinator to an arithmetic combinator(1) with the signal "Each / <number of chests> | Each"
2- Red wire from the LTN station to another arithmetic combinator(2) with the signal "Each * -1 | Each"
3- Green Wire from the output of combinator (2) to the input of combinator (1)
With logistic loading system:
4- Red wire from the output of combinator (1) to each requester chest with the setting "set requests"

With regular chest loading system:
4- Red wire from the output of combinator (1) to each loader inserter with the signal "Anything > 0"

And that's it. Simple as that you'll have a work order really close to what you need and it won't overload the wagon. Haven't done any count-perfect system as I don't need those.

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Re: [Mod 0.14/0.15] Logistic Train Network 1.2.3

Post by nuhll » Fri May 12, 2017 9:46 am

I used LTN for oil before 0.15 was working good.

But now it dont seem to work, is there anything i need to do?

I have extra LTN Station (with constant combinator "is depot"). With extra fluid wagons. Req station -> constant combinator (-50000 oil, 25k min req, max 3 min 3 long (i always do this i only have 3 long trains). It shows correct -48k but no delivery gets created?!

Supply station shows correct + amount of oil.

(i dont want to barrel it) manual i can drive the way and load and unload...

Station shows blue (working)
req shows green
prov shows green...

Edit:
removing req station and build (the same) again, just worked fine dont know how.


1) Is there a way to tell LTN to dont take something from other stations? (since im in the start of the game i dont ahve enaught laser turrets for all my outposts, now LTN creates delivers like from outpost 1 to outpost 2, which is ofc, not working)
2.) Why delivery min is not working? I set to 7000. LTN creates deliverys with 4000 e.g.
Last edited by nuhll on Fri May 12, 2017 11:41 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: [Mod 0.14/0.15] Logistic Train Network 1.2.3

Post by Optera » Fri May 12, 2017 10:46 am

removing req station and build (the same) again, just worked fine dont know how.
Can't say for sure if it's a bug with migration to 1.2 or something else. I didn't see broken stations in my own maps when migrating to 1.2
Is there a way to tell LTN to dont take something from other stations? (since im in the start of the game i dont ahve enaught laser turrets for all my outposts, now LTN creates delivers like from outpost 1 to outpost 2, which is ofc, not working)
turn off the cc producing the requests?

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Re: [Mod 0.14/0.15] Logistic Train Network 1.2.3

Post by nuhll » Fri May 12, 2017 11:42 am

Optera wrote:
removing req station and build (the same) again, just worked fine dont know how.
Can't say for sure if it's a bug with migration to 1.2 or something else. I didn't see broken stations in my own maps when migrating to 1.2
Is there a way to tell LTN to dont take something from other stations? (since im in the start of the game i dont ahve enaught laser turrets for all my outposts, now LTN creates delivers like from outpost 1 to outpost 2, which is ofc, not working)
turn off the cc producing the requests?
What does that mean.

Also, i edited my prevoius post, maybe you have an idea.

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Re: [Mod 0.14/0.15] Logistic Train Network 1.2.3

Post by ichVII » Fri May 12, 2017 6:24 pm

Hey,
I have a Problem when using fluid wagons: I have LL-CCCCC-F and a LL_CCCCCC Train, the first is used to suppply mining outpost with acid and deliver the ore to smelters, the second is used to send ressources to different stops in my base and is not supposed to stop at the mining outpost. They both have the same length, but different composition, is there any way yet to tell a stop to only accept Trains of a certain composition? I tried to binary decode the Position using the geiven extra Signals, but that is propably not recognized as an Input. I think this would be a great Addition, becouse with fluid wagons you will propably have different Trains of the same length.

Furthermore ltn repeatedly tried to use the LL-CCCCC_F wagon to deliver 75k steam to a Station that has Minimum delivery size set to 200k. How can that happen?

Im playing with creative mode active.

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Re: [Mod 0.14/0.15] Logistic Train Network 1.2.3

Post by Optera » Fri May 12, 2017 6:43 pm

turn off the cc producing the requests?
What does that mean.
Means you use a constant combinator to set negative values for requests. Well turn it off to NOT have the station request stuff.
is there any way yet to tell a stop to only accept Trains of a certain composition?
Too prone to user error.
Furthermore ltn repeatedly tried to use the LL-CCCCC_F wagon to deliver 75k steam to a Station that has Minimum delivery size set to 200k. How can that happen?
If there is no train for a full capacity delivery available LTN will use the next best train. In your case one with a single wagon.

PS: Mixed trains are not supported by LTN. It will always generate a separate delivery for each fluid.
Unless there is a way to check stations pump layout and fluid wagon configuration quickly this won't change.

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Re: [Mod 0.14/0.15] Logistic Train Network 1.2.3

Post by ichVII » Fri May 12, 2017 7:00 pm

If there is no train for a full capacity delivery available LTN will use the next best train. In your case one with a single wagon.
I though this behaviour would only appear, if "use best effort" is active, which is not the case in my config file.
Too prone to user error.
So this leaves me with 2 Options: have only one Train composition per Train length or edit the Control file to check for exactly that. I dont like either of those Options and might go with the second.

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Re: [Mod 0.14/0.15] Logistic Train Network 1.2.3

Post by Optera » Fri May 12, 2017 8:13 pm

ichVII wrote:
If there is no train for a full capacity delivery available LTN will use the next best train. In your case one with a single wagon.
I though this behaviour would only appear, if "use best effort" is active, which is not the case in my config file.
Best Effort and Ignore Minimum Delivery Size change providers to be used even when they are below the threshold.
Trains are picked by best match regardless.
Too prone to user error.
So this leaves me with 2 Options: have only one Train composition per Train length or edit the Control file to check for exactly that. I dont like either of those Options and might go with the second.
You are free to do that for personal use as long as you don't make the fork publicly available.

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Re: [Mod 0.14/0.15] Logistic Train Network 1.2.3

Post by nuhll » Sat May 13, 2017 4:07 am

Optera wrote:
turn off the cc producing the requests?
What does that mean.
Means you use a constant combinator to set negative values for requests. Well turn it off to NOT have the station request stuff.
is there any way yet to tell a stop to only accept Trains of a certain composition?
Too prone to user error.
Furthermore ltn repeatedly tried to use the LL-CCCCC_F wagon to deliver 75k steam to a Station that has Minimum delivery size set to 200k. How can that happen?
If there is no train for a full capacity delivery available LTN will use the next best train. In your case one with a single wagon.

PS: Mixed trains are not supported by LTN. It will always generate a separate delivery for each fluid.
Unless there is a way to check stations pump layout and fluid wagon configuration quickly this won't change.


"Means you use a constant combinator to set negative values for requests. Well turn it off to NOT have the station request stuff."

I WANT all that stations to REQUEST stuff, LTN USES the REQUEST STATIONS as SUPPLY. THAT is the problem. Like i explained!?

many request stations for towers, miners etc. one supply, if supply is empty, ltn creates unlimited transferes to get things from REQUESTER to REQUESTER instead of BASE to REQUESTER.

And still, min delivery is not working.

I only have the same type of trains, i set it to 7k, ltn only creates 4k transfers... even if 20k is missing....

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Re: [Mod 0.14/0.15] Logistic Train Network 1.2.3

Post by Optera » Sat May 13, 2017 4:21 am

nuhll wrote: "Means you use a constant combinator to set negative values for requests. Well turn it off to NOT have the station request stuff."

I WANT all that stations to REQUEST stuff, LTN USES the REQUEST STATIONS as SUPPLY. THAT is the problem. Like i explained!?

many request stations for towers, miners etc. one supply, if supply is empty, ltn creates unlimited transferes to get things from REQUESTER to REQUESTER instead of BASE to REQUESTER.

And still, min delivery is not working.

I only have the same type of trains, i set it to 7k, ltn only creates 4k transfers... even if 20k is missing....
If you have a requester turning into provider your circuit logic is flawed.

Minimum delivery size works as intended on my test maps.

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Re: [Mod 0.14/0.15] Logistic Train Network 1.2.3

Post by Mobius1 » Sat May 13, 2017 4:39 am

nuhll wrote:"Means you use a constant combinator to set negative values for requests. Well turn it off to NOT have the station request stuff."

I WANT all that stations to REQUEST stuff, LTN USES the REQUEST STATIONS as SUPPLY. THAT is the problem. Like i explained!?

many request stations for towers, miners etc. one supply, if supply is empty, ltn creates unlimited transferes to get things from REQUESTER to REQUESTER instead of BASE to REQUESTER.

And still, min delivery is not working.

I only have the same type of trains, i set it to 7k, ltn only creates 4k transfers... even if 20k is missing....
I see the problem, Every station created by LTN automatically becomes a SUPPLY Station so you don't need to make any type of combinator magic on them, by default they are providers. You only need to use combinator signals to REQUEST items from all your train network.
Your min delivery is not working because your outpost is requesting stuff while it should be providing stuff and you never set the signal "min delivery size" on any of the requester outposts and with the mod configuration "use best effort" selected on the settings page before creating a new game or loading a map or with the "minimum delivery size" setting set to something lower than 1000 makes the trains request lower than the work order size.

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Re: [Mod 0.14/0.15] Logistic Train Network 1.2.3

Post by nuhll » Sat May 13, 2017 6:50 am

Mobius1 wrote:
nuhll wrote:"Means you use a constant combinator to set negative values for requests. Well turn it off to NOT have the station request stuff."

I WANT all that stations to REQUEST stuff, LTN USES the REQUEST STATIONS as SUPPLY. THAT is the problem. Like i explained!?

many request stations for towers, miners etc. one supply, if supply is empty, ltn creates unlimited transferes to get things from REQUESTER to REQUESTER instead of BASE to REQUESTER.

And still, min delivery is not working.

I only have the same type of trains, i set it to 7k, ltn only creates 4k transfers... even if 20k is missing....
I see the problem, Every station created by LTN automatically becomes a SUPPLY Station so you don't need to make any type of combinator magic on them, by default they are providers. You only need to use combinator signals to REQUEST items from all your train network.
Your min delivery is not working because your outpost is requesting stuff while it should be providing stuff and you never set the signal "min delivery size" on any of the requester outposts and with the mod configuration "use best effort" selected on the settings page before creating a new game or loading a map or with the "minimum delivery size" setting set to something lower than 1000 makes the trains request lower than the work order size.
How should this whole mod be USEABLE when every REQUESTER will be automatic a SUPPLY station? I used this mod now 50h or something like this, i never had so hard problems except now since 0.15. I just setup a constant combinator and set e.g. -50 Belts. Since min delivery for outposts is only 25..... (i set now min delivery to 50- so this error is nearly fixed). Also min delivery is not always broken, only on all of "my ore stations -> requester in base".


Nice idea what you told about min delivery, but its not true. It gets ore from supply stations and send it to my requester in base, working perfectly. I set min delivery on the requesting station, that is, as far as i know, correct.

In base requester i set - 20000 iron ore, min delivery 7 (tried also 8) 000, it just creates 4k orders.. :) FIXED, vanilla (2) can only carry 4k instead of 8... ;) Just in case, if i use not vanilla trains, will LTN know i can carry more? (MK2 Version e.g. from bobs)

But how should i stop the requester stations from getting provider? Oo(!!!)

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