Stations & other LTN based designs

Adds new train stops forming a highly configurable logistic network.

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Optera
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Re: Stations & other LTN based designs

Post by Optera » Sat Jul 27, 2019 5:27 am

mrvn wrote:
Fri Jul 26, 2019 10:13 pm
You set -1000 iron plates, -1000 copper plates, -1000 steel plates, -500 coal. Combined/Multi Stack limit 40. In the sum that is 40 stacks so the request is processed. You might still not get a train with all 4 goods because no station provides them all in sufficient quantity or not all at the same place. But that's always a possibility.

I think the idea of the limit is to prevent trains moving for trivial amounts. Which is a) wasteful on fuel, b) causes congestion and c) uses up all the trains so they will have to come from far off depots. For that purpose a combined stack limit would make a lot of sense. As icon it could have the stack limit icon but with 2 stacks, one iron plates, one copper plates.
Good point, but how exactly should this merged thresholds be implemented?
Which threshold should LTN use when players have threshold, stack threshold and merged threshold?
Stack threshold has to take precedence over threshold so both can be used alongside for stations mixing fluids and items.
Would merged threshold take precedence over stack threshold and be fluid + item? Fluid numbers generally are magnitudes higher than items.

Should there even be a merged provide threshold?
It would lock a provider until all provided >= merged threshold, but we don't know if provided goods will be a merged delivery resulting in ltn using less than full loads when players expect full loads.

The more I think about merged threshold the less I want to touch that can of worms.
It seems like an edge case for advanced users that can just as easily be handled by your 3 combinator design without slowing down request processing for everyone else.

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Re: Stations & other LTN based designs

Post by jeepxjbodo » Sun Jul 28, 2019 6:07 pm

Howdy Gang!

I'm trying to use the universal provider blueprint from this thread. It allows a train to park, but the requester chest never activates. I'm sure I'm missing something obvious.

Thanks for your time!

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Re: Stations & other LTN based designs

Post by slippycheeze » Mon Jul 29, 2019 9:29 pm

jeepxjbodo wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 6:07 pm
I'm trying to use the universal provider blueprint from this thread. It allows a train to park, but the requester chest never activates. I'm sure I'm missing something obvious.
Just checking, but ... is it plugged in? As in:
  • connected to the logistic network you expected?
  • covered by the roboport logistic range?
  • have logistic robots present?
I know it seems maybe like a dumb thing to be asked, but I also know I spent 15 minutes trying to figure out what the combinators were doing wrong when I had zero logistic bots in the roboport of a similar thing one time ... so check the basics, and maybe save yourself the pain. :)

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Re: Stations & other LTN based designs

Post by jeepxjbodo » Tue Jul 30, 2019 10:25 am

slippycheeze wrote:
Mon Jul 29, 2019 9:29 pm

I know it seems maybe like a dumb thing to be asked, but I also know I spent 15 minutes trying to figure out what the combinators were doing wrong when I had zero logistic bots in the roboport of a similar thing one time ... so check the basics, and maybe save yourself the pain. :)
No, it's not dumb and I appreciate it! Plenty of logistic bots and coverage. If I set a requester chest down with a request it will get filled.
Interesting thing, if I place an LTN requested item into the requester chest that's wired to the inserters, it doesn't get loaded. Instead it gets removed and placed into the active providers chest.

Something isn't right.

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Re: Stations & other LTN based designs

Post by Optera » Tue Jul 30, 2019 1:26 pm

jeepxjbodo wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 6:07 pm
Howdy Gang!

I'm trying to use the universal provider blueprint from this thread. It allows a train to park, but the requester chest never activates. I'm sure I'm missing something obvious.

Thanks for your time!
Very little useful information to help you.

I presume you are talking about my Logistic Provider & Requester?
Did you hook it up to logistics network through my Logistic Network to LTN stop filter from the following post?

Generally make sure wiring is correct and constant combinators have correct control signals.

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Re: Stations & other LTN based designs

Post by jeepxjbodo » Tue Jul 30, 2019 3:51 pm

Optera wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 1:26 pm
Very little useful information to help you.

I presume you are talking about my Logistic Provider & Requester?
Did you hook it up to logistics network through my Logistic Network to LTN stop filter from the following post?

Generally make sure wiring is correct and constant combinators have correct control signals.
Yup, using your BPs. Here's a screenie showing the setup:

https://imgur.com/a/FEa4FQ3

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Re: Stations & other LTN based designs

Post by Optera » Tue Jul 30, 2019 3:59 pm

Screenshots are a little better, but i dont see anthing there.
Make a bp of the whole station and add the string in bp tags here.

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Re: Stations & other LTN based designs

Post by jeepxjbodo » Tue Jul 30, 2019 6:34 pm



Let's see if I can get that to work! Thanks for the assist.

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Re: Stations & other LTN based designs

Post by Optera » Tue Jul 30, 2019 8:38 pm

Your bp is missing the combinator decoding wagon positions. Seems like blueprints don't place combinators containing no longer available signals at all instead of just leaving the slot empty.

I've updated my original posts blueprint to use new virtual signal for any cargo wagon position.

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Re: Stations & other LTN based designs

Post by jeepxjbodo » Tue Jul 30, 2019 9:34 pm

I tried the latest BP and the behavior is the same. :(

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Re: Stations & other LTN based designs

Post by Optera » Wed Jul 31, 2019 6:50 am

Does it build the arithmetic combinator next to the stop connected between the stop output and constant combinator?

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Re: Stations & other LTN based designs

Post by jeepxjbodo » Wed Jul 31, 2019 11:14 am

Nope, that one was missing along with a green wire from the pole between the engine and first car to the pole next to the station.

Works as expected now! Thanks for the help.

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Re: Stations & other LTN based designs

Post by mrvn » Thu Aug 01, 2019 12:13 pm

Optera wrote:
Sat Jul 27, 2019 5:27 am
mrvn wrote:
Fri Jul 26, 2019 10:13 pm
You set -1000 iron plates, -1000 copper plates, -1000 steel plates, -500 coal. Combined/Multi Stack limit 40. In the sum that is 40 stacks so the request is processed. You might still not get a train with all 4 goods because no station provides them all in sufficient quantity or not all at the same place. But that's always a possibility.

I think the idea of the limit is to prevent trains moving for trivial amounts. Which is a) wasteful on fuel, b) causes congestion and c) uses up all the trains so they will have to come from far off depots. For that purpose a combined stack limit would make a lot of sense. As icon it could have the stack limit icon but with 2 stacks, one iron plates, one copper plates.
Good point, but how exactly should this merged thresholds be implemented?
Which threshold should LTN use when players have threshold, stack threshold and merged threshold?
Stack threshold has to take precedence over threshold so both can be used alongside for stations mixing fluids and items.
Would merged threshold take precedence over stack threshold and be fluid + item? Fluid numbers generally are magnitudes higher than items.

Should there even be a merged provide threshold?
It would lock a provider until all provided >= merged threshold, but we don't know if provided goods will be a merged delivery resulting in ltn using less than full loads when players expect full loads.

The more I think about merged threshold the less I want to touch that can of worms.
It seems like an edge case for advanced users that can just as easily be handled by your 3 combinator design without slowing down request processing for everyone else.
I think merge threshold only makes sense for solids. Or will LTN ever send trains with mixed fluids? I haven't seen that ever. So threshold remains in use for fluids or if no other threshold is set. Setting either stack threshold or merged threshold applies only to solid goods.

As for merge threshold for requesters and providers I would think they have to work differently.

For requesters LTN would try creating a train schedule when either a stack threshold or the merged threshold is exceeded. So trains are send early if the sum of needed goods exceeds the threshold or if an individual good exceeds the threshold. Only set a merged threshold on requesters if you also provide mixed goods.

For provider stations schedules would be constructed like now but if the resulting schedule doesn't exceed the merged threshold it is ignored. So even if there are plenty of goods provided don't accept empty trains. This would prevent a requester wanting 100 iron plates and 3900 copper plates from getting only 100 iron plates.

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Re: Stations & other LTN based designs

Post by michalus » Sat Aug 03, 2019 8:45 am

Hi,

i am having trouble getting the Blueprint "Requester v2 for LTN 1.10.13" to work.
Although the train station has "read contents from train" checked, the logistic train stop output is not outputting the contents of my waggon. So the filter inserters are not unloading.
Anyone have an idea what i am doing wrong?
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Re: Stations & other LTN based designs

Post by Optera » Sat Aug 03, 2019 10:55 am

michalus wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 8:45 am
Hi,

i am having trouble getting the Blueprint "Requester v2 for LTN 1.10.13" to work.
Although the train station has "read contents from train" checked, the logistic train stop output is not outputting the contents of my waggon. So the filter inserters are not unloading.
Anyone have an idea what i am doing wrong?
I had one wire connected wrong in the bp. That's fixed, but bp tags seem broken now.

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Re: Stations & other LTN based designs

Post by michalus » Sat Aug 03, 2019 12:15 pm

New BP is working. Thx

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Re: Stations & other LTN based designs

Post by Germanfragger » Sat Aug 10, 2019 11:44 pm

Using factorio 0.17.60 and the depot ist not refueling any train at all any ideas???

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Re: Stations & other LTN based designs

Post by slippycheeze » Tue Aug 13, 2019 4:15 pm

Germanfragger wrote:
Sat Aug 10, 2019 11:44 pm
Using factorio 0.17.60 and the depot ist not refueling any train at all any ideas???
When you say it isn't refueling, do you mean that it isn't trying, or that it is trying, but not succeeding (eg: inserter holding fuel block but not putting it into train), or something else.

My psychic powers say that you need to adapt the setup to use the new "any locomotive" position signal, though.

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Re: Stations & other LTN based designs

Post by csduff » Wed Aug 14, 2019 8:05 pm

slippycheeze wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 4:15 pm
My psychic powers say that you need to adapt the setup to use the new "any locomotive" position signal, though.
I was both happy and annoyed when I saw that signal arrive.

Happy because it's so easy to decode now.

Annoyed because I had just put together a decoder for something like 9 different locos that is now irrelevant.

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Re: Stations & other LTN based designs

Post by slippycheeze » Wed Aug 14, 2019 8:51 pm

csduff wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 8:05 pm
slippycheeze wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 4:15 pm
My psychic powers say that you need to adapt the setup to use the new "any locomotive" position signal, though.
I was both happy and annoyed when I saw that signal arrive.
Happy because it's so easy to decode now.
Annoyed because I had just put together a decoder for something like 9 different locos that is now irrelevant.
Heh. The previous signals still remain, though, so it hasn't actually broken anything past.

What I guessed is that the blueprint was updated to use them, but the posters unspecified problem was triggered by an older setup or smth.

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