I'm trying to optimize this classic LTN blueprint

Adds new train stops forming a highly configurable logistic network.

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mrvn
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Re: I'm trying to optimize this classic LTN blueprint

Post by mrvn » Thu Jul 18, 2019 1:16 pm

mmmPI wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 1:01 pm
mrvn wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 11:56 am
When I see all your balancers I have to ask: Why?
1) It look awesome
2) It was a lot of fun to make
3) It function

mrvn wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 11:56 am
Your smelters take in 4 blue belts. Assuming you put the same number of smelter per belt they all consume goods at the same speed. So why not simply have each cargo wagon fill one belt and feed that into the smelter. The wagons are balanced, the consumption is balanced the production is balanced and loading the plate is balanced too. There theoretically is 0 need to balance at all. (except for those inserters putting ore in a chest. What for? They make no sense there.) Any slight imbalance that might occur the circuit logic on the inserters will correct by halting some of them.

You don't even need splitter for merge the output from one wagon. Simply side load all the output form one wagon onto one blue belt. The circuit logic ensures all 6 buffer chests are used equally and 6 stack inserter can fill both sides of a blue belt without tricks. Overall a lot of splitters and underground belts can be saved.
The furnaces were spread onto 6 uneven lane because i was filling a spot on the map between a nice coastline and a diagonal rail track and wanted to make it look nice. :roll:. Plus i trashed my things in waiting train in this no-bot base so it created always some unbalance in the wagon load. Even with that it's still probably overdone.( Hence why i call it a non-optimized mess every station is a unique weirdo in this base).

I do agree with your logic for making things simple. as in "optimized".
The thing to realize is that if you build half way smart balancing is a minor issue. Just keep normal production/consumption balanced on its own and then very little is needed to keep it there or get it back to balanced. Even if you only correct 1 item/s towards being balanced then after 4000s an imbalance of a whole cargo wagon is corrected. Stack inserters work more than 12 times as fast and you have 6 per wagon. So less than a minute of stopping the inserters to correct the imballance of a whole missing cargo wagon. And the usually imbalance is more like taking a stack of 100 iron plates out of a chest for personal use. Taking out one stack simply stops the inserter for under 10s and you are back in balance.

Note: Make sure that each satelite factory has some (not matter how small) mechanism to balance from every initial input to every final output at at least one point. For example if you build green circuit boards from 4 wagon trains then iron plates from the first wagon and copper plates from the 2nd wagon must be able to balance green circuit boards for the 4th wagon. Otherwise you could end up with a deadlock eventually. And it really only takes the smallest balancing force to keep things in line.

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Re: I'm trying to optimize this classic LTN blueprint

Post by coppercoil » Thu Jul 18, 2019 6:17 pm

mrvn wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 11:48 am
And that really how you should design your factory. You have to consume items slower than you can unload them from the train to make up for the time between trains when no unloading happens. Otherwise the buffer chests will just run dry. And that basically means the inserters from the buffer chests to belts don't run 100% of the time. The difference in speed between wagon-chest inserters and chest-belt inserter is too little to compensate for the time when no train is present. You have to slow them down more.
Slow down??? No way. My goal is 100%, not 99%. Optimizing and pushing to the limits makes this game interesting 8-). Fully compressed blue belt is the lowest measurement unit in my factory. Not compressed setups are not interesting to me :)

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Re: I'm trying to optimize this classic LTN blueprint

Post by mmmPI » Thu Jul 18, 2019 8:32 pm

you can have several fully compressed blue belt that moves very slowly if you don't consume it all it's not great either :)

Let say you consume 4 belts of material, and unload the equivalent of 6 in chest when a train is there, but 0 where a train is not there obviously; you need a train parked at the station 2/3 of the time (and a buffer large enough to store material for 1/3).

If you consume 4 belts, and unload the equivalent of 4 in a chest, there is a problem since you need a train 100% of time. Hence the advise of mrvn to consume slower than you can unload.

Also 4 belts of material is a fixed quantity based on the belt, the equivalent number of inserter per wagon changes depending on your tech level during the game, so there could be some margin of inefficiency here and there. ( The second case naturally becoming the first one if you increase the inserter capacity enough).
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Re: I'm trying to optimize this classic LTN blueprint

Post by coppercoil » Fri Jul 19, 2019 6:26 am

mmmPI wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 8:32 pm
If you consume 4 belts, and unload the equivalent of 4 in a chest, there is a problem since you need a train 100% of time. Hence the advise of mrvn to consume slower than you can unload.
No. An unload wagon -> chest is way faster than chest -> belt. If you use 6 chests, then train unload takes no more than 20-30% of cycle time at maximum consumption. I have done it already, it's simple if you have boosted stack inserter bonus. If you have not, then I agree consumption should be limited. However incomplete inserter bonus research is a temporary inconvenience and should not be regarded for a long term investment.

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Re: I'm trying to optimize this classic LTN blueprint

Post by mmmPI » Fri Jul 19, 2019 10:05 am

coppercoil wrote:
Fri Jul 19, 2019 6:26 am
mmmPI wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 8:32 pm
If you consume 4 belts, and unload the equivalent of 4 in a chest
No. An unload wagon -> chest is way faster than chest -> belt. If you use 6 chests, then train unload takes no more than 20-30% of cycle time at maximum consumption.
"If you use 4=>4 you will have a problem" " No, because 4=>6 is fine"


Then if you follow my reasonning, I wrote "the equivalent of 4" so for 4 blue belt, you take 45x4 and you divide by inserter capacity=> ((180item/sec) / 27.69 ) It gives 6.5 stack inserter at max capacity.

So with 4 chest you just don't have enough material to fill 4 belt. You need at least 7 chest even 6 is wrong!

BUT if 7 inserter going from wagon to chest is enough material to fill 4 blue belt 1 inserter from chest to belt is slower.

now you need ((180item/sec)/ 13.85)=> 13 inserter !! to put the material on the belt.

NOW If your station is supposed to output constantly 4 full belt, of material and you unload 180 item/second in chest. there is a problem since you need a train 100% of the time. Else you can't ever fill a buffer for when trains changes.
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Re: I'm trying to optimize this classic LTN blueprint

Post by coppercoil » Fri Jul 19, 2019 11:23 am

There is some miscommunication here. I mean 4-6 chests per one blue belt for each wagon side. Thus 4 wagons are able to provide 8 blue belts at max throughput leaving enough time for train to depart and arrive. There's nothing to discuss about it.

I discuss about balancing and Madzuri logic. I suspect there are some cases Madzuri logic will fail to provide 8 full blue belts and recommend to use balancers instead of it.

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Re: I'm trying to optimize this classic LTN blueprint

Post by mmmPI » Fri Jul 19, 2019 2:44 pm

coppercoil wrote:
Fri Jul 19, 2019 11:23 am
There is some miscommunication here
that for sure :D
coppercoil wrote:
Fri Jul 19, 2019 11:23 am
I mean 4-6 chests per one blue belt for each wagon side. Thus 4 wagons are able to provide 8 blue belts at max throughput leaving enough time for train to depart and arrive. There's nothing to discuss about it.
On one side of 1 wagon, you could do 2 blue belts, thus 4 wagons are able to provide 16 blue belts at max throughput leaving barely no time for train to depart and arrive.
viewtopic.php?t=58728

(sure wagon->chest is faster than chest->belt but what if you have more inserter doing the later option ?!)

That's why i am reasoning counting the material that are unloaded per second. You need to unload faster than your consumption else your buffer will run dry when train leave.

Now if you plan correctly you don't even need balancer nor circuit, but both of them can be used for optimal result espcially if you try for (only) 1 blue belt per side ( 45/sec).

if you try for 2 red belts (60/sec) or even for 2 blue belts ( 90/sec) you will need to prevent the situations that would slow down the madzuri's logic, this means as even consumptions of material as possible,if you choose to use a balancer you need to make sure that it is throughput unlimited ( and not only balanced).
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Re: I'm trying to optimize this classic LTN blueprint

Post by mrvn » Mon Jul 22, 2019 9:36 am

coppercoil wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 6:17 pm
mrvn wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 11:48 am
And that really how you should design your factory. You have to consume items slower than you can unload them from the train to make up for the time between trains when no unloading happens. Otherwise the buffer chests will just run dry. And that basically means the inserters from the buffer chests to belts don't run 100% of the time. The difference in speed between wagon-chest inserters and chest-belt inserter is too little to compensate for the time when no train is present. You have to slow them down more.
Slow down??? No way. My goal is 100%, not 99%. Optimizing and pushing to the limits makes this game interesting 8-). Fully compressed blue belt is the lowest measurement unit in my factory. Not compressed setups are not interesting to me :)
But 6 inserters fill more than a blue belt. So you get your compressed belt and you can have it moving at full speed. The inserters still will be on part time.

And for your goal being 100% that is exactly the point. You want to consume items as fast as the train can bring them. That means consuming them slower than you can unload to allow trains to depart and arrive.

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Re: I'm trying to optimize this classic LTN blueprint

Post by SuHwak_01 » Fri Aug 09, 2019 9:22 pm

I have been using the same BP book that Bogen refered to in his op. But I was annoyed with the bug (which is showing also in the posted pictures)Image and so I addressed that, and also the annoying thing that sometimes the trains are leaving (after the timeout) not completely empty, because (indeed) the chests closest to the balancer are fuller then the others in the station.

So I wanted to tackle this as well. This is my current solution, but it might not be the best. I was not going here for full blue compressed belts, but rather reliability. As throughput doesn't bother me so much (just add an extra station), but the alerts that LTN Tracker give me (and the items left in trains do.

This is my take on it:

(BP in next post because of character limit)

For the unloaders (red and blue belt versions are provided, and the adjusted balancers):

In the Aritmetic combinator:
Change both Steam signals (bottom in picture) to the item you want to request.

In the Constant combinator:
Do NOT remove the X in the Constant combinator
Change the S signal to the stack size in negative (for iron plate: -100)

Then ADD the same item you want to request (set to 1) on the same Constant combinator, like so:
Image

Warning: not the most elegant, but my basic testing (with Iron plate ánd Nuclear fuel (stack size=1)) showed it did not get trains stuck at a station because it could not unload all items.
BP Book on the next post because of character limit.

Also, my first post and first contribution online with a BP, please be gentle, but improvements are welcome ;)

Let me know if this BP Book warrants a separate thread.

Edit: I am still struggling with output to the belts.
Edit 2: I think I found the solution for 8 belt compressed unloading!
Last edited by SuHwak_01 on Sat Aug 10, 2019 11:37 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: I'm trying to optimize this classic LTN blueprint

Post by SuHwak_01 » Fri Aug 09, 2019 9:25 pm


Old, Check the one below
Last edited by SuHwak_01 on Sat Aug 10, 2019 11:37 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: I'm trying to optimize this classic LTN blueprint

Post by SuHwak_01 » Sat Aug 10, 2019 11:36 am

And its updated again, so instead of reposting here, I edited this one to link to the blueprint on factorioprints:

https://factorioprints.com/view/-LlwTbS7OPiK6bqkp2KW
Last edited by SuHwak_01 on Wed Aug 14, 2019 12:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: I'm trying to optimize this classic LTN blueprint

Post by mrvn » Mon Aug 12, 2019 10:34 am

I've set the timeouts to 0 (or 4 billion where 0 isn't allowed) because they never do anything I consider sane. Leaving with fluids left in a train is fatal, leaving with goods is annoying (or even more fatal if you don't unload at the depot). And the overall timeout breaks everything too since it will simply send another train making the problem worse.

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Re: I'm trying to optimize this classic LTN blueprint

Post by slippycheeze » Tue Aug 13, 2019 4:14 pm

mrvn wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 10:34 am
I've set the timeouts to 0 (or 4 billion where 0 isn't allowed) because they never do anything I consider sane. Leaving with fluids left in a train is fatal, leaving with goods is annoying (or even more fatal if you don't unload at the depot). And the overall timeout breaks everything too since it will simply send another train making the problem worse.
I recently came to that conclusion, after observing that I had made five adjustments in a row where I increased a timeout because of something or other. Most recently, filling an "oil tanker" from Cargo Ships, which would take a bit over 15 minutes for 625,000 oil from one rig. Which was perfectly acceptable for that particular line, since that was how the water-trains worked, but hit the 15 minutes I'd last pushed up the issue to.

Instead I adopted Train Alert GUI which has a nice, polite, "waiting at station too long" warning, as well as the ability to disable particular stations. So I get an alert if a train is stuck, but not because LTN rescheduled it and announced the failure. :)

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