Optimized Steam Engine Setup

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mrvn
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Re: Optimized Steam Engine Setup

Post by mrvn »

Given the new size of boilers, 1:2 ratio and water in, water out and steam out connections this needs a complete rethinking.

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Re: Optimized Steam Engine Setup

Post by Patric20878 »

So v0.15 changed how it works again eh. I'll look into this and make an update. Thanks for the notification.

As I haven't played Factorio at all since v0.12, please let me know the following information:
-Was the current steam engine build applicable up to .14?
-Any quirks or unobvious bits of info about the new steam engine implementation.
-A list of changes/new items added to Factorio, related to steam engines, since v0.12.
Tekkit Classic expert and admin of the Tekkit Classic Wikia specializing in factory and frame gunship engineering, creator of the Optimized Steam Engine Setup, and a huge fan of Touhou. My designs may be found at http://patric20878.imgur.com.

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Re: Optimized Steam Engine Setup

Post by BlakeMW »

With the new 1:2 ratio I think the naive/obvious layout is pretty hard to beat. That is a 1:20:40, where the boilers form a single row, and each boiler has two steam engines. This is compact and tileable and generate 36MW. The only real point of finesse is how you manage powerpoles, which depends on power pole size.

Offshore pump now produces 1200 liquid (double what it used to/s, accounting for the 10x multiplier). Steam Engines consume 30 liquid/s, hence the 1:20:40. You can place up to 17 pipes between the offshore pump and boilers: more than that will result in slight performance degradation.

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Re: Optimized Steam Engine Setup

Post by Aeternus »

-Was the current steam engine build applicable up to .14?
Yes. Size and power settings did not change until 0.15

- Any quirks or unobvious bits of info about the new steam engine implementation.
Boiler is a 3x2 sized block now instead of a 1x1. It has the top and bottom of the "front" end for water in/out/throughput, and a pipe exit at the middle section of the "Back" end where the hot steam comes out. So you're no longer doing the pump -> row boilers -> steam engines. Typical setup now has a row of boilers connecting their top to their neighbour's bottom to create a continuous "pipe" of boilers, with a 2 steam engine deep row behind it to generate the power.
Boilers consume 3.6 MW of energy to produce 1.8MW in steam at maximum power.
The higher consumption rate of the boilers favors not using Burner inserters unless you've got that boiler park shut down most of the time. Bigger burners require fuel insertion more often, and the Burner inserters are energy hogs while moving.
Steam engines consume 900KW of steam power at maximum capacity. This translates to a 1-to-2 ratio for boilers-steamengines.
Heat capacity of water has doubled.
Offshore Pump now outputs 1200/s This allows a single pump to feed 20 boilers and 40 steam engines (the old 1-14-10 ratio goes to 1-10-20)
All liquid values and liquid consumption values have been multiplied by 10. So where you previously had a storage tank that held 2500, it now holds 25000, but it's the same amount basically. It's just the measuring scale that changed.
Games that migrate from pre-0.14 will likely get a bit of a blackout since the boilers no longer align with the steam engines and water input. Steamengine based power plants will need to be rebuilt - but given that capacities have increased across the board, you'll not be short of buildings to do so.

-A list of changes/new items added to Factorio, related to steam engines, since v0.12
For the chemical plants? Not much - I believe wooden chests and the basic power poles got a fuel value in 0.13 so you could burn them in boilers to get rid of em. It's still "fuel goes in, steam comes out". The Substation got a bit wider a range but that's not really useful for you I think.
There is a new type of Steam Engine and Boiler that comes with the Nuclear power plant, the Heat Exchanger that gets fed by Heat Pipes connected to a Reactor, and the Turbine which consumes higher energy steam at a faster rate. But for chemical boiler setups of basic steam engines, those aren't relevant.

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Re: Optimized Steam Engine Setup

Post by mrvn »

You can load old games in 0.15? How will it convert the boilers? There

a) won't be space for the 3x2 boiler
b) the pipes don't work

Seems like that should be impossible unless the old boilers are kept.

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Re: Optimized Steam Engine Setup

Post by orzelek »

mrvn wrote:You can load old games in 0.15? How will it convert the boilers? There

a) won't be space for the 3x2 boiler
b) the pipes don't work

Seems like that should be impossible unless the old boilers are kept.
Afaik it can ignore collisions so you end up with lots of boilers bunched together and you need to deconstruct them.

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Re: Optimized Steam Engine Setup

Post by Smarty »

this is what i have built
Image
The entire plant produces 538MW
it is made up of 5 sections
Here is the blueprint for 1 section

Code: Select all

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

Aeternus
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Re: Optimized Steam Engine Setup

Post by Aeternus »

mrvn wrote:You can load old games in 0.15? How will it convert the boilers? There

a) won't be space for the 3x2 boiler
b) the pipes don't work

Seems like that should be impossible unless the old boilers are kept.
It'll convert the boilers anyway. They'll overlap and not connect so powerplants based on them fail to work until you modify them.

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Re: Optimized Steam Engine Setup

Post by BlakeMW »

Another technique to increase the space density is to braid underground belts with inserters. This still leaves room for medium power poles to provide power for the steam engines. I'd say that this is not worth doing because the power density is already so high, but to be fair the "drag and drop" functionality is perfect for the underground belt spacing and the power pole placement so it's not that much effort.

Image

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Re: Optimized Steam Engine Setup

Post by dbatyuk »

Try this: 480MW continuous and 556MW peak (night, lasers, etc)

Image

Code: Select all

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Re: Optimized Steam Engine Setup

Post by mrvn »

I noticed that one heat exchanger isn't enough for 2 turbines. Has anyone figured out the perfect ratio and pipe setup?

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Re: Optimized Steam Engine Setup

Post by mrvn »

With the new boilers one can't pack them like before to use every single coastal tile.

But now one can put water into fluid wagons or barrels.

So has anyone tried playing with that? Build a power plant in the middle of nowhere and supply it with water by belt or train?

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Re: Optimized Steam Engine Setup

Post by MeduSalem »

mrvn wrote:I noticed that one heat exchanger isn't enough for 2 turbines. Has anyone figured out the perfect ratio and pipe setup?
1 Heat Exchanger requires 10 MW / 5.8 MW = 1.72 Steam Turbines..., 4 Heat Exchangers require 6.9 Steam Engines... so there surely is a sweetspot somewhere for those who want perfect ratios.

But that said I'm using a 10 Boiler : 4 Heat Exchanger : 10 Steam Turbines configuration (using the boilers to preheat the water before they go into the Heat Exchangers)... because 10 Boilers + 4 Heat Exchangers = 10 * 1.8 MW + 4 * 10 MW = 18 MW + 40 MW = 58 MW... which goes perfectly with 10 Steam Engines = 10 * 5.8 MW = 58 MW.

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Re: Optimized Steam Engine Setup

Post by mrvn »

MeduSalem wrote:
mrvn wrote:I noticed that one heat exchanger isn't enough for 2 turbines. Has anyone figured out the perfect ratio and pipe setup?
1 Heat Exchanger requires 10 MW / 5.8 MW = 1.72 Steam Turbines..., 4 Heat Exchangers require 6.9 Steam Engines... so there surely is a sweetspot somewhere for those who want perfect ratios.

But that said I'm using a 10 Boiler : 4 Heat Exchanger : 10 Steam Turbines configuration... because 10 Boilers + 4 Heat Exchangers = 10 * 1.8 MW + 4 * 10 MW = 18 MW + 40 MW = 58 MW... which goes perfectly with 10 Steam Engines = 10 * 5.8 MW = 58 MW.
Boilers and Heat Exchangers together? How does that work? I thought boilers only produced low temperature steam and turbines run best with high temperature steam. Can you show a screenshot?

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Re: Optimized Steam Engine Setup

Post by MeduSalem »

mrvn wrote:Boilers and Heat Exchangers together? How does that work? I thought boilers only produced low temperature steam and turbines run best with high temperature steam. Can you show a screenshot?
Yeah, well I preheat the water in the boilers before they go into the Heat Exchangers (generic setup for testing purposes):
nuclear plant v2.jpg
nuclear plant v2.jpg (353.37 KiB) Viewed 18427 times
Pump Switch:
nuclear plant v2a.jpg
nuclear plant v2a.jpg (326.92 KiB) Viewed 18427 times
The pump switch allows me to select the mode I want to run the power plant in depending on availability of Uranium/Coal/Solid Fuel/Rocket Fuel and of course the power demand. So it can run either solely on Uranium, solely on Coal/Solid Fuel/Rocket Fuel or in a hybrid mode using both which has even higher power output than Nuclear alone. Didn't include the necessary Circuit network though, but just imagine that it's there. xD

So basically the 165 Degree preheated water allows me to power an additional 3.1 Steam Engines. A native upgrade from Chemical Fuel with Boilers/Steam Engines to Nuclear Power... Don't have to tear anything down (except Steam Engines in favor of Steam Turbines)... can leave the entire infrastructure intact and integrate it once Nuclear power is available.

Bigger variant:
nuclear plant v1.jpg
nuclear plant v1.jpg (428.13 KiB) Viewed 18427 times

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Re: Optimized Steam Engine Setup

Post by mrvn »

And here I was thinking that the water temperature was useless since now you only have water and steam and no way to heat water. Silly me.

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Re: Optimized Steam Engine Setup

Post by Patric20878 »

Thanks Aeternus and everyone for the information. I believe I have a promising idea for arranging the setup in a better way than the obvious 1:2 layout, and if it works, I'll optimize it and post the update.
Will need to know more about steam turbines though, are they mid-late game or what, and are they just upgraded steam engines or do they use different mechanics altogether?
Tekkit Classic expert and admin of the Tekkit Classic Wikia specializing in factory and frame gunship engineering, creator of the Optimized Steam Engine Setup, and a huge fan of Touhou. My designs may be found at http://patric20878.imgur.com.

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Re: Optimized Steam Engine Setup

Post by BlakeMW »

MeduSalem wrote: Yeah, well I preheat the water in the boilers before they go into the Heat Exchangers
But what's the advantage of a setup like this, over a separate nuclear power plant, and a power switch (or accumulator bridge) with the coal/oil power plant? I mean it's obviously cool, but doesn't seem like it's actually doing anything better than a completely separate boiler and nuclear power plant (with power switches and/or accumulator bridges to manage power flow)


My own ratio solution to create something pleasing out of the ratio is this:

Image

8:14 leaves one boiler without steam turbines: the gap is perfect for 3 tanks.
Altough I also think there's something to be said for going slightly over-ratio on the steam turbines (i.e. 8:15, 8:16, or even higher) because power use is always above or below average - but going over-ratio to buffer fluctuations is only really beneficial if not using large accumulators banks. My inclination these days is to use accumulator banks as buffers (and especially to cover MW spikes for laser turret batteries) so as to have a clean separation between baseline generation capacity and buffering capacity.

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MeduSalem
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Re: Optimized Steam Engine Setup

Post by MeduSalem »

BlakeMW wrote:But what's the advantage of a setup like this, over a separate nuclear power plant, and a power switch (or accumulator bridge) with the coal/oil power plant? I mean it's obviously cool, but doesn't seem like it's actually doing anything better than a completely separate boiler and nuclear power plant (with power switches and/or accumulator bridges to manage power flow)
Actually I don't think that there is a huge advantage of doing a hybrid powerplant instead of building two seperate ones and using power switches.

That said maybe there is a little advantage... I was too lazy to prepare another shore for the Nuclear Power plant... By making it a hybrid power plant I could use the existing shoreline and existing infrastructure/space. Before I made it a Hybrid power plant I actually had a 28:20 Steam Power plant there back from 0.14. So if you so want... you spare yourself the work of preparing another shore. I just replaced the 20 Steam Engines per row with the 4 Heat Exchangers and 10 Steam Turbines per row and left the Boilers be. :)

There's nothing wrong with doing it seperately of course...

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Re: Optimized Steam Engine Setup

Post by mrvn »

MeduSalem wrote:
BlakeMW wrote:But what's the advantage of a setup like this, over a separate nuclear power plant, and a power switch (or accumulator bridge) with the coal/oil power plant? I mean it's obviously cool, but doesn't seem like it's actually doing anything better than a completely separate boiler and nuclear power plant (with power switches and/or accumulator bridges to manage power flow)
Actually I don't think that there is a huge advantage of doing a hybrid powerplant instead of building two seperate ones and using power switches.

That said maybe there is a little advantage... I was too lazy to prepare another shore for the Nuclear Power plant... By making it a hybrid power plant I could use the existing shoreline and existing infrastructure/space. Before I made it a Hybrid power plant I actually had a 28:20 Steam Power plant there back from 0.14. So if you so want... you spare yourself the work of preparing another shore. I just replaced the 20 Steam Engines per row with the 4 Heat Exchangers and 10 Steam Turbines per row and left the Boilers be. :)

There's nothing wrong with doing it seperately of course...
That should be easy to test:

1) nuclear reactor with one heat exchanger and 2 turbines.
2) Same as 1 but water preheated with one or more boilers.

Which one gives more power?

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