The perfect OCD compliant nuclear power plant! --- Now v2.4!

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xBlizzDevious
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Re: The perfect OCD compliant power plant! Now 0.15.11 safe

Post by xBlizzDevious »

mophydeen wrote:u sure v2 is working?

added fuel, robots waited then on nothing inserts.
Switch that combinator that outputs A at "1" to "on", then break it. And make sure you've got logistics bots in that network.



New design looks good, Distelzombie. I'll update my setup now.


EDIT: Mophydeen, it does indeed seem to be broken; looks like he wired it wrong. Unwire the constant combinator outputting "A" from where it is connected and wire it into the input side of the combinators beside that are controlling A-A and A-N. Then switch on and remove. Should work then as that fixed it for me.

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Re: The perfect OCD compliant power plant! Now 0.15.11 safe

Post by Distelzombie »

Oh ok. I'll fix that. Make it v2.1

Im glad it appeals. :D
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Re: The perfect OCD compliant power plant! Now 0.15.11 safe

Post by Taipion »

Sorry I did not read through all the pages, just one question:

Why would you want such overcomplicated logics and restrictive design with a separte logistics network?

Got a simple setup that does the same:
- signal ...say "A" when water/steam in storage tanks is below set level (only one decider combination needed)
- the inserters taking out used fuel activate on signal "A", stack size set to 1, outputs hand contets as pulse
- the inserters inserting fuel activate on the used up fule signal from the afore mentioned inserters, stack size set to 1
=> there is only ever 1 fuel cell or used fuel cell (not both) in each reactor, sometimes zero as the current cell is being used

(Also, the inserters taking out used fuel are slow, yellow inserters whereas the inputting ones are fast inserters, which was necessary back when fuel was instantly converted to used fuel when put into the reactor in the earlier versions of 0.15.x, but I guess that is not necessary anymore, yet it does not hurt so I have not changed it yet.)


Did I miss some magic that your setup does, or is the simpler setup just doing the same? :P

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Re: The perfect OCD compliant power plant! Now 0.15.11 safe

Post by iceman_1212 »

Taipion wrote: Got a simple setup that does the same:
- signal ...say "A" when water/steam in storage tanks is below set level (only one decider combination needed)
- the inserters taking out used fuel activate on signal "A", stack size set to 1, outputs hand contets as pulse
- the inserters inserting fuel activate on the used up fule signal from the afore mentioned inserters, stack size set to 1
=> there is only ever 1 fuel cell or used fuel cell (not both) in each reactor, sometimes zero as the current cell is being used
I am using an identical setup as this and it is working quite well - inserter stack size setting makes it very easy. Another benefit of the simplicity is that this low power setup can be placed on an independent power network of solar panels and accumulators (6 panels, 5 accus if it's all yellow inserters). Memory cells can do funny things if power fluctuates for whatever reason and this makes sure that our reactor controller remains unaffected (and continues keeping perfect count of inserted/removed cells) if something should happen.

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Re: The perfect OCD compliant power plant! Now 0.15.11 safe

Post by mophydeen »

I added a few extra roboports to make it easily extensible (shore wise)
v2.1.1 extensible
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Re: The perfect OCD compliant power plant! Now 0.15.11 safe

Post by Distelzombie »

iceman_1212 wrote:
Taipion wrote: Got a simple setup that does the same:
- signal ...say "A" when water/steam in storage tanks is below set level (only one decider combination needed)
- the inserters taking out used fuel activate on signal "A", stack size set to 1, outputs hand contets as pulse
- the inserters inserting fuel activate on the used up fule signal from the afore mentioned inserters, stack size set to 1
=> there is only ever 1 fuel cell or used fuel cell (not both) in each reactor, sometimes zero as the current cell is being used
I am using an identical setup as this and it is working quite well - inserter stack size setting makes it very easy. Another benefit of the simplicity is that this low power setup can be placed on an independent power network of solar panels and accumulators (6 panels, 5 accus if it's all yellow inserters). Memory cells can do funny things if power fluctuates for whatever reason and this makes sure that our reactor controller remains unaffected (and continues keeping perfect count of inserted/removed cells) if something should happen.
It was my own approach to it. :cry:

You're right though. I just played it in my mind and it works perfectly.
Question: How do you start it initially without manually placing all the fuel cell in the rector?
How do you cut power to the base if power runs too low to feed inserters? A little solar power plant in the build (Theres a perfect place for it already) would feed the entire base and the inserters would still not work. So you need a seperate power network for the reactors and its control. But you guys dont like seperate things.

Im going to play with combinators now. :D
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Re: The perfect OCD compliant power plant! Now 0.15.11 safe

Post by mrvn »

Distelzombie wrote:Question: How do you start it initially without manually placing all the fuel cell in the rector?
How do you cut power to the base if power runs too low to feed inserters? A little solar power plant in the build (Theres a perfect place for it already) would feed the entire base and the inserters would still not work. So you need a seperate power network for the reactors and its control. But you guys dont like seperate things.

Im going to play with combinators now. :D
I figure placing one fuel cell into each reactor initially is no hardship. Unless you blue print. But then all your liquid pipes are randomly placed.

As for power he mentioned solar cells for the inserters.

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Re: The perfect OCD compliant power plant! Now 0.15.11 safe

Post by mrvn »

Here is a design I would like to see:

1) Layout with 2 reactors and 5m wide,
2) Layout with 2x2 reactors and 10m wide, which contain 2* option 1 side by side and extra stuff
3) Layout with 2x3 reactors and 15m wide, which contain 3* option 2 side by side and extra stuff

Can you see where I'm going with this?

You start with option 1 for your initial power needs. Then when you outgrow it you place option 2 on top of it and then option 3 on top of that. If you need even more power you take option 3 and place it on top of that but offset by one reactor. So you get 2x4 reactors, then 2x5, 2x6, ...

That's what I would call tileable. Also the wider you build it the more efficient it gets since only the ends don't have the maximum neighbour bonus possible for automatic reactors.

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Re: The perfect OCD compliant power plant! Now 0.15.11 safe

Post by mophydeen »

mrvn wrote:Here is a design I would like to see:

1) Layout with 2 reactors and 5m wide,
2) Layout with 2x2 reactors and 10m wide, which contain 2* option 1 side by side and extra stuff
3) Layout with 2x3 reactors and 15m wide, which contain 3* option 2 side by side and extra stuff

Can you see where I'm going with this?

You start with option 1 for your initial power needs. Then when you outgrow it you place option 2 on top of it and then option 3 on top of that. If you need even more power you take option 3 and place it on top of that but offset by one reactor. So you get 2x4 reactors, then 2x5, 2x6, ...

That's what I would call tileable. Also the wider you build it the more efficient it gets since only the ends don't have the maximum neighbour bonus possible for automatic reactors.
layout 3 alone would be great.

but:
- fuel efficient version: only insert when needed
- roboports
- water input on 1 side
- ocd friendly

=> pipe dream?

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Re: The perfect OCD compliant power plant! Now 0.15.11 safe

Post by Distelzombie »

mrvn wrote:I figure placing one fuel cell into each reactor initially is no hardship. Unless you blue print. But then all your liquid pipes are randomly placed.

As for power he mentioned solar cells for the inserters.
Yea youre right. With this logic I cannot place the initial fuel with a combinator in there. That would mean to connect all inserters together - what brings problems when for some reason a fuel cell runs out before the other, making the insert more than one fuel cell in the reactor.

I also made two seperate power grids:
- one driven by solar panels and accumulators that expands to all for the production of power needed loads (Does also get power from some turbines if absolutely no power left in accumulators -> fail safe)
- and one that connects the turbines with the outside world.
I reduced the amount of Pumps by a lot, but now the build is four tiles higher.

I'll update the blueprint now and give Taipion credit.
Can you see where I'm going with this?

You start with option 1 for your initial power needs. Then when you outgrow it you place option 2 on top of it and then option 3 on top of that. If you need even more power you take option 3 and place it on top of that but offset by one reactor. So you get 2x4 reactors, then 2x5, 2x6, ...
I'll try to extract parts of it as smaller plants, but I dont think it is possible to go over a certain amount of reactors because of the recent changes. I needed NINE TRIES to get this one right. Have fun trying 2x6 or more.
mophydeen wrote:but:
- fuel efficient version: only insert when needed
- roboports
- water input on 1 side
- ocd friendly

=> pipe dream?
No idea what you mean :)


EDIT: The builds with 2, 4 and 6 reactor are available. They all have full amount of pavings just to make sure you're not building something in the way of the higher blueprints.
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Re: The perfect OCD compliant power plant! Now 0.15.11 safe

Post by iceman_1212 »

Here is how I have the combinators setup atm - you might be able to simplify further.

Regarding the power connections. Shift-clicking on a power pole once disconnects all copper wires (which can be readded in specific spots using the copper wire from the crafting menu). Also, the only part of the nuclear reactor setup that needs connectivity to an electrical network (aside from the controller) is the steam turbine setup. The nuclear reactor cores / heat pipes / heat exchangers do not need to be connected to anything, which is how I localize a small solar cell for the inserters/combinators.

P.S. The way my combinators are setup, it doesn't need to be manually primed. What can be useful when experimenting around is a constant combinator that outputs some random value > 2 for signal I, which has the effect of overriding the other combinators and manually forcing the inserters to remain off.
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Re: The perfect OCD compliant power plant! Now 0.15.11 safe

Post by iceman_1212 »

Distelzombie wrote:That would mean to connect all inserters together - what brings problems when for some reason a fuel cell runs out before the other, making the insert more than one fuel cell in the reactor.
Good catch - one way to check for this is to have a chest with one item that feeds each input inserter and to check that there are sufficient fuel cells across all of these chests. Alternatively (and probably probably simpler), we can keep track off of how many fuel cells (i.e., not depleted fuel cells) are on the belt feedign the reactor. We already keep track of removals from the belt - just need to keep track of additions to the belt which would be one additional inserter.

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Re: The perfect OCD compliant power plant! Now 0.15.11 safe

Post by Distelzombie »

iceman_1212 wrote:Here is how I have the combinators setup atm - you might be able to simplify further.

Regarding the power connections. Shift-clicking on a power pole once disconnects all copper wires (which can be readded in specific spots using the copper wire from the crafting menu). Also, the only part of the nuclear reactor setup that needs connectivity to an electrical network (aside from the controller) is the steam turbine setup. The nuclear reactor cores / heat pipes / heat exchangers do not need to be connected to anything, which is how I localize a small solar cell for the inserters/combinators.

P.S. The way my combinators are setup, it doesn't need to be manually primed. What can be useful when experimenting around is a constant combinator that outputs some random value > 2 for signal I, which has the effect of overriding the other combinators and manually forcing the inserters to remain off.
Have you seen that I only have one combinator now?
Also I have pumps that need fail safe power. The way it is now works good.
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Re: The perfect OCD compliant power plant! Now 0.15.11 safe

Post by iceman_1212 »

Distelzombie wrote:
iceman_1212 wrote:Here is how I have the combinators setup atm - you might be able to simplify further.

Regarding the power connections. Shift-clicking on a power pole once disconnects all copper wires (which can be readded in specific spots using the copper wire from the crafting menu). Also, the only part of the nuclear reactor setup that needs connectivity to an electrical network (aside from the controller) is the steam turbine setup. The nuclear reactor cores / heat pipes / heat exchangers do not need to be connected to anything, which is how I localize a small solar cell for the inserters/combinators.

P.S. The way my combinators are setup, it doesn't need to be manually primed. What can be useful when experimenting around is a constant combinator that outputs some random value > 2 for signal I, which has the effect of overriding the other combinators and manually forcing the inserters to remain off.
Have you seen that I only have one combinator now?
Also I have pumps that need fail safe power. The way it is now works good.
I had not seen that you'd updated the original post, my bad. Very nice simplification. :D

Would be good to add a check to make sure that all input inserters have fuel to insert before inserting, as you mentioned in a previous post.


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Re: The perfect OCD compliant power plant! Now 0.15.11 safe

Post by iceman_1212 »

Here's a setup for a belt system that (1) ensures zero waste, (2) inserts only one fuel cell at a time and (3) checks that all reactors have fuel available before inserting. It basically just checks the belt-tiles that the input inserters are picking up from and makes sure that they are full (for single lane).

It uses one decider and 2 constant combinators. The steam level check is performed on the output inserters themselves. If there is not enough fuel as per the check, then a "bogus" value for the steam signal (100m) is sent along the wire, which has the effect of tricking the output inserters into thinking that there is indeed enough steam in the system, which prevents output/input from taking place.

A count-perfect approach would involve filling a chest for each input inserter and then making sure that there is atleast one fuel cell in each chest. But that would require a lot more inserters and, from a practical standpoint, I think this one will perform just as well in the vast majority of situations.
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Re: The perfect OCD compliant power plant! Now 0.15.11 safe

Post by Distelzombie »

mophydeen wrote:could you add 2 roboports left and right.
mophydeen wrote:pls fix
Done

EDIT: I would love include a radar somewhere but couldnt find a good spot. Any ideas?
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Re: The perfect OCD compliant power plant! Now 0.15.11 safe

Post by mrvn »

Fail prooving the circuits:

1) monitor fuel available for all reactors. It is better to wait for all to have fuel than to start only some. The output will be a fraction when the neighbour bonus is lost. I would add a buffer chest to each reactor that holds only 1-2 fuel cells if fuel is sparse.

2) remove the spend fuel cells into a buffer chest and use the chest contents as trigger. cells > number-of-reactors can be used as trigger. Use a flip flop or a token to remember that spend fuel cells had been present. I think a token works best because you can put it on a belt to add a delay before the token can be returned.

3) if steam < some-large-number and token present and fuel present then insert one fuel cell in each reactor.

4) If steam < 100 then either it is startup time or something went wrong. Move the token from 2 in this case. This will probably insert a few fuel cells (if available) but you probably need a few to get the reactor started and steam buffered. Increase the token return delay to keep the number low. If too many fuel cells are inserted they will be wasted but it should only happen once. If you are realy OCD set the delay to just below the burn time of a single cell (a timer might be better there than belts for this long).

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Re: The perfect OCD compliant power plant! Now 0.15.11 safe

Post by Distelzombie »

mrvn wrote:Fail prooving the circuits:

1) monitor fuel available for all reactors. It is better to wait for all to have fuel than to start only some. The output will be a fraction when the neighbour bonus is lost. I would add a buffer chest to each reactor that holds only 1-2 fuel cells if fuel is sparse.

2) remove the spend fuel cells into a buffer chest and use the chest contents as trigger. cells > number-of-reactors can be used as trigger. Use a flip flop or a token to remember that spend fuel cells had been present. I think a token works best because you can put it on a belt to add a delay before the token can be returned.

3) if steam < some-large-number and token present and fuel present then insert one fuel cell in each reactor.

4) If steam < 100 then either it is startup time or something went wrong. Move the token from 2 in this case. This will probably insert a few fuel cells (if available) but you probably need a few to get the reactor started and steam buffered. Increase the token return delay to keep the number low. If too many fuel cells are inserted they will be wasted but it should only happen once. If you are realy OCD set the delay to just below the burn time of a single cell (a timer might be better there than belts for this long).
1: Seperation was done to prevent multiple fuel inputs because one reactor was faster and had send a signal. Alo you manually put the fuel in to start the power plant. I dont know how you get to this described situation without a fuel shortages. And there is a pesking alarm to remind you to act fast.
But you're maybe right. This will need a second combinator isolating the other one from the circuit though. On the other hand it could result in blackouts instead of brownouts. Need more opinions on that.

2: This is not necessary and would result in me simply using my old circuit with 12 combinators again. Because you cant control robots themselves you have to control the requester chest.

3: This will get covered with the combinator from 1, the disadvantage too.

4: I dont see what that gives in fail proovability. If the steam gets under a certain amount it will put in a fuel cell anyway. No need to have a second combinator telling the circuit the same thing again.
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