Optimized Steam Engine Setup

[Patric20878]

Upon doing the following math again:

8000KW * 0.5 (boiler efficiency) * 26.67 item/s / 900KW = 118.533.. engines worth of coal, I've come to realize that the only reason the setup can sustain 119 has to do with the bug where the boiler doesn't produce enough steam to sustain 2 engines. Which probably means it's consuming less coal than usual. That along with the fact that this will be the first time where coal throughput is a bottleneck, has allowed me to also realize that the burner inserters that the setup needs will drop the available coal throughput for the boilers too.

So, for sake of making a future-proof build that doesn't just take advantage of the current bug right now, I've decided the best option is 59/118. And initially, I thought the remaining .533 engines worth of output should be used for 5 burner inserters, since previously, it was needed to restart the engines in the case of depleted coal, but upon analysis, I also got reminded that 1 boiler can now power enough engines for all 59 inserters, since now, multiple boilers aren't needed to heat water enough to feed 1 or more engines. So with that, provided the math and analysis are finally complete now, I should be ready to release the new build soon.

[mrvn]

Are you really going to put one engine and the inserters for the 59 boilers on their own electrical network?

As for using burner inserters. I found them to slow for wood fired boilers and lately I've been playing with greenhouses so wood burning is preferable to coal from a sustainable viewpoint.

[Patric20878]

Was considering it. On second thought, it's probably not a great idea for normal operations. Need to test more.

Yeah actually, by math, 5 burner inserts consume 470 KW at max, whereas dedicating a steam engine to all inserters is 900 KW down. So nevermind at the dedicated engine for inserters idea.

Edit: Or not, actually, even putting one burner inserter on the same network is almost the same as putting 5. Must be due to red belts being faster - even with 10 engines running per 118 and half max consumption, it isn't enough to supply inserters with enough power to pick up coal before coal fills up the belt. And the restart speed gains from 1 to 5 burner inserters isn't all that good either - ~47 seconds or so for coal to fill up the red belt, 25 more seconds for the setup to resume producing full power for 1 burner inserter, 21 seconds for 2, and 16 seconds for 5.

So I guess I'll make 1 burner inserter the standard then, to conserve coal. Otherwise, up to 5 burner inserters per 118 engines may be used to minimize downtime in case of coal depletion.

[mrvn]

If you use red belts then in low coal situations (or towards the end of the belt) yellow inserters will often try to grab coal just to have it move past them before they can. Worse with burner inserter because when they fail too often they are out of fuel and stop working. Fast inserters on the other hand need much more power. It's worth the extra tile to split the red belt into 2 yellow belts.

Idea: Can you connect wires to a burner inserter? You could add a tank to one steam engine and set the burner inserters to activate when steam < 10. Then they would only work in a restart situation.

[impetus maximus]

Idea: Can you connect wires to a burner inserter? You could add a tank to one steam engine and set the burner inserters to activate when steam < 10. Then they would only work in a restart situation.

you could wire it to a faster inserter before it that is on the same boiler. enable the burner inserter if *everything = 0. it will still start to move and use a tiny bit of fuel.
not nearly as much as when it's in full operation. it will be there in case the system is run dry, and has to 'reboot'.

[Patric20878]

Eh, you guys are overcomplicating it. Just use one red splitter where one end dead ends at the burner inserter. No need to use circuit network tech

And as for yellow inserters not being fast enough to grab coal from red belts when low power, just one of the drawbacks that come with upgraded belts, which is slower restart time. Coal needs to reach the end of the red belt before it can restart. But it makes for 2x more efficient stacking and less space usage, needed in a long boiler setup like this.

[impetus maximus]

wait, you are saying we are over complicating things?

[Patric20878]

Yes.
1 red splitter vs circuit network logic dependent on steam level of a storage tank connected to an engine, guess which one is simpler and uses far less tech and space?

And I think I've just about optimized everything I can for the setup, up to 2 stacked rows of boilers/engines. Think all that's left is figuring how to compact it when stacking more than 2 - those offshore pumps kinda jut out vertically from the setup.

[impetus maximus]

ok, i guess you don't get what i was hinting at.

[Patric20878]

Hinting at me spending 15 pages of discussion optimizing the crap out of these designs, yes yes I know.
But I'm doing it to simplify and optimize the design, not complicate it :>

[impetus maximus]

ok, but i don't see how a single wire between two inserters is complicated.
how does your red splitter solution keep a burner inserter from using fuel?

[Patric20878]

I was addressing that in context of red belts being too fast for burner inserters to reliably pull coal off of, and the other ideas mrvn had with splitting the belt into 2 yellow ones to slow it down and such. If it was intended to be an unrelated idea on saving the 81 more KW a burner inserter consumes than a normal one, not worth increasing tech costs for the standard design just for that small a gain.

In context of being a solution for red belts being too fast, a circuit network requires additional research, resources, and time on top of the logistics 1 and 2 you need for red belts. It doesn't require additional research to just replace a red belt with a red splitter, since it's the same tech. Slowing down coal on a belt is just one of the ways to enable a burner inserter to pull coal off it reliably. The simplest way is just to stop the coal completely, by routing the main coal flow through one end of the splitter for the normal inserters and having nothing attached to the other end, so the burner inserter directly pulls off the red splitter.

[impetus maximus]

i just put the burner inserter at the end of the belt so it doesn't matter what the belt speed is.

i found something interesting. i used a 'configurable super boiler' from creative mode mod.
pre-heated the water going into a Boiler from 15°C to 18°C. running two turbines at 100% the boiler never runs out of steam.

[Patric20878]

Typically a minor difference, but putting it at the end makes the setup restart significantly slower after coal depletion when power consumption is relatively low, and results in more time spent moving the burner inserter to the end everytime a row is expanded towards the 59 boiler max per row. So I feel placing it up front is worth it overall. This was discussed a while ago in previous pages also.

[mrvn]

Eh, you guys are overcomplicating it. Just use one red splitter where one end dead ends at the burner inserter. No need to use circuit network tech

The point wasn't that a burner inserter is too slow to grab from a red belt. It was that it wastes fuel to have it working while having enough power for a yellow inserter. The idea was to have both a yellow inserter and burner inserter feeding the boiler but the burner inserter only works in low power situations to enable a cold start.

And as for yellow inserters not being fast enough to grab coal from red belts when low power, just one of the drawbacks that come with upgraded belts, which is slower restart time. Coal needs to reach the end of the red belt before it can restart. But it makes for 2x more efficient stacking and less space usage, needed in a long boiler setup like this.

Also not about restarts. When a coal enters a belt tile the yellow inserter starts trying to grab it. But the fast transport belt is too fast and carries the coal past the inserter. If there isn't a second coal following close behind the first then the yellow inserter will fail to grab anything and return. Next coal comes along and everything repeats. Only when coal backs up from the end of the belt the inserter can grab coal. And that already happens while the power plant is running, not just on restart. And that means your boilers won't be running full power since they temporarily run out of coal every now and then.

[Patric20878]

The only time yellow inserters aren't fast enough is right after a restart, when the inserters aren't supplied enough power to run properly. It works at full power just fine until the 1:2 bug depletes steam. Where do you get the idea yellow inserters aren't fast enough to pick things up from a red belt? Maybe you're confusing red belts with blue ones.

And I covered the other things you said in my previous posts already.

[mrvn]

Seen it happen when watching. The inserter moves, picks up some coal. Next one it moves half way and then gives up. Maybe it only happens when the coal is on the wrong side of the belt or something but I've seen it happen while having full power.

[Patric20878]

It works on both sides of the belt. I only seen burner inserters fail to pickup coal if it's on the closer side of the belt.

[Patric20878]

And the update is finally here! This design held up my favorite hobby, Touhou, for over half a year. So glad to be done. I don't even play this game anymore, since almost 3 years ago.

[septemberWaves]

Seeing this old thread is quite a surprise. I did not realize the change to boilers and steam engines occurred over four years ago; I recall playing when the pumps:boilers:engines ratio used to be 1:14:10.