gGeorg wrote: ↑Thu Oct 14, 2021 6:52 am
We are mixing 2 things then dont understand each other.
yes maybe more than 2 haha.
gGeorg wrote: ↑Thu Oct 14, 2021 6:52 am
1. When insert another cell ?
- cell always burn to the end in 200s (it doesnt pause when not needed like smelting oven)
- designer can use default principle - load as many as possible - which creates fuel waste
- designer can use some smart solution to insert fuel cell only when conditions are filled - fuel waste reduction problem
- ideal solution is wasteless design
This is close to what i called wasteless. the difference between default, load as many as possible, or having a way to control fuel consumption to reduce it when not needed is done to achieve wastelessness.
I think though that it is not a specificity that is proper to a design, but i would say it more the result of how you use designs.
If you use the default method, load as many as possible, but ingame you also use 100% power all the time, you will not waste fuel. The design itself is not smart. The situation that wil happen if you always consume 100% power will still be a situation where the power plant doesn't waste anything.
What op proposed as initial design, your clover leaf power plant, those have dynamic mechanism to seek wasteless situations. Getting information, and reacting to be wasteless no matter what electricity consumption. This means reducing refuel frequency when not needed but also having enough buffer for the energy.
We could say those design function ONLY wasteless. or try to.
While the default system can be wasteless sometimes if the consumption is exactly the same as the maximum production, but the rest of the time it waste fuel. the design is not waste-free waste-impossible, you need the efficiency police to control only when everything is fine, not random control haha.
gGeorg wrote: ↑Thu Oct 14, 2021 6:52 am
2. How create and detect adequate thermal capacity to prevent void heat ?
- game mechanic makes void not used heat from burned cell
- player designer challenge is, use some smart solution to prevent thermal loss - thermal loss reduction problem
- thermal design solution creates such plant design which can absorb all the heat from all the Nuclear cell inserted at once. then prevent another cell load to allow consume stored heat first
- ideal solution is lossless design
This i think is more characteristic to the design itself versus the other part that is more the result of a situation. I don't really see the difference between wasteless and lossless. things are not organised the same way in my mind
for me the keywords here are "detect" and "prevent void heat".
What i read here include the relation between the energy buffer capacity, in steam, or heat, and the fuel cycle.
Taking the example of your clover leaf, the fuel cycle worth 4(core)x3(adjacency)x8GJ= 96 GJ or 96 000MJ, which is 480MWx200sec. If consumption stops just after refuel, you have to buffer 96000 MJ in the form of a heat in few heatpipes, and/or steam in some tanks and iron pipes.
This is because the all the fuel will burn and the heat will be lost if it's not buffered.
This is the MINIMUM energy buffer you need if you want a power plant to be wasteless when the situation is no electricity consumption just after refuel.
This one is not one you can configure yourself, it's how it is in the game and you have to play with that. This is the "no consumption" extreme.
The other extreme is 100% consumption, max capacity, 200fuel timer, they all mean the same for me. In this case no need for buffer.
That leaves 1 thing open : There is no MAXIMUM buffer, you can have 12 millions tanks, and activate the nuclear plant at max power only on mondays if the consumption is only 15% of max capacity. Then next week you know if you activate during 20hours on monday or 19hours or 24 hours, you can adapt ( you count the steam tank left on sunday haha).
Most self regulating/adaptive/automated design ( like your clover leaf) adapt in 1 cycle of fuel, because it reduce the amount of buffer required to store the energy/steam/heat. 12millions tanks is way too many = adapting every week is not often enough.
Those parameter are both embedded in the design, if you include "this" system of regulation, you need "that" amount of buffer.
This comes in second, the first question really is : "what situations can happens ?".
Most self regulating design (like your clover leaf) are designed to handle extreme situations while being wasteless : (A) 0% for long time, (B) 100% for long time, (C) 0% and then 100%, (D)100% and then 0%, (E) 100% then 0% then 100% then 0%, (D) any% (E) x% (F) y% and the list could be just summed up with "every situations".
First one say: " i want my power plant to handle EVERY situation" , then you need to know how many MW maximum, it means how many core, from that you can calculate the minimum buffer of energy, it's the 96000 MJ for a 2X2 power plant, 1 cycle of fuel worth. Only at this point you have multiple choices, you can use more buffer if you want but to reduce the building footprint and material cost the minimum buffer is the best. Then you need a mechanism to adapt the refuel timing to the electric consumption given the buffer you have choosen superior or equal to the minimum.
But if you say " my power plant willl be ON/OFF only" then you can design differently.
Or if you say " my uranium production is x per minutes" i want to only use 1/2 for power", you need to design differently.
Maybe the other uranium patch is very far away in biters land or in unknown location, the only patch you have is very small, you need nuclear power because low oil and no coal but you don't have the tech for enrichment yet.
Maybe the nuclear plant is only for the science bus and you research only 1 tech, with the starter base and outpost uses solar.
Maybe the nuclear plant is only for laser turret drain, and they use solar and accumulators for spikes.
Maybe the nuclear plant is on another planet or an asteroid and you send uranium using rockets which cost a lot.
that's how things are in my mind x)
gGeorg wrote: ↑Thu Oct 14, 2021 6:52 am
mmmPI wrote: ↑Wed Oct 13, 2021 8:05 pm
it doesn't have to be constant, it has to average in the amount of cycle of fuel that you can buffer under the form of heat.
if you use enough heat pipes to store 3 cycle of fuel, the consumption can be 10% for 5 minutes then 90% for five minutes. If you set it at 50% it's fine, still no fuel loss. wasteless.
Well, by the rules I have just highlighted, you talk about partial lossless design. Thermal buffer capacity. e.g. such design which can absorb (buffer) an certain portion of heat.
Yes i understand i think what you call partial lossless design, it's partial because it's only happening if the player set the timer correctly and the consumption is somewhat predictable. Otherwise it's not lossless.
the other designs like the clover leaf would be "fully lossless" to compare. Or adapting to be lossless in every situation, in my mind
. What called "self-regulated".
gGeorg wrote: ↑Thu Oct 14, 2021 6:52 am
I can add some other ideas for
(1. When insert another cell ?) :
detect used cell unload event
detect fresh cell load event
measure time to burn the cell
i don't understand 1 and 2 it seems to me that those are just mechanism that triggers, it's not where you read information to adapt the timers contrary to the other in OP's list.
3 i think is basically using time/a timer/clock to trigger refuel, a bit like what i started to do? except mine is unfinished you cannot change timer easily. Same as not reading any value in game right ? because a cell is always burnt in 200 sec.
All the other way are indirect means to measure electric consumption to adapt refuel timers.