(SPOILERS!) Space Exploration 0.6.101 / 1,358 spm / mining 867 / 11.7k hours

[blazespinnaker]

Your question made sense. I visited every single asteroid field and grabbed the first 5 or 6 spheres, plus I spent quite a few silos on one particular field. I spendt some of the spheres on arcostorage.

I can't really tell from your pic how your setup is, but I'm assuming some kind of assembly line transformations. Mine was a lot simpler, I think, I just let the logistic bots figure it out, but ensured that a request for a particular greek's recipe wouldn't be made if the greeks was greater than its inputs. This way, the bots never fed assemblers in a way that produced too much of a particular greek. I had a few other combinator limits for some of the oddball recipes. Throw in max modules on everything, put all the requester chests closes togeth, and throughput was enough that my arcosphere wasn't my bottleneck.

Mostly it was just naq processing. Like I said, I kinda lost heart because of the magic teleportation stuff.

The spaceship floor hack is interesting, though I wonder if perhaps that's sort of going against the spirit of the mod. The idea, at least how I see it, is to separate out space / planetside processing and require transportation logistics to assemble stuff, utilizing prod mods in one place, and speed in the other. It feels like something that should be nerfed, imho.

Also, one might imagine that the space machines are meant to work only in zero g or close to it.

[blazespinnaker]

Also, it's not enitrely clear to me that the casting machines aren't ups efficient. They have a dual purpose as pipes, so it's possible using them might be better UPS wise than your setup with the spaceship floors.

I'm curious what you think about the latest updates. Other than the lack of PMs in casting machines, I'm really enjoying the changes. Really mixes stuff up a lot. You're pretty much forced to do full assembly on other planets because of transpo packing limits. Moving utility and prod to space as well is a big early game change.

Can't wait to get the space elevator. I always found the lack of trains in SE was a big problem and this should help.

[spiral_power]

I can't really tell from your pic how your setup is, but I'm assuming some kind of assembly line transformations. Mine was a lot simpler, I think, I just let the logistic bots figure it out, but ensured that a request for a particular greek's recipe wouldn't be made if the greeks was greater than its inputs. This way, the bots never fed assemblers in a way that produced too much of a particular greek. I had a few other combinator limits for some of the oddball recipes. Throw in max modules on everything, put all the requester chests closes togeth, and throughput was enough that my arcosphere wasn't my bottleneck.

I don't think it is possible to achieve mining research 800 spm with 80 arcospheres.
I think even 100 spm would require several hundred arcospheres. Was that 800 spm measured correctly?
If you want to make sure that arcopheres are being handled properly and persistently, a 10-hour graph should be sufficient.

The spaceship floor hack is interesting, though I wonder if perhaps that's sort of going against the spirit of the mod. The idea, at least how I see it, is to separate out space / planetside processing and require transportation logistics to assemble stuff, utilizing prod mods in one place, and speed in the other. It feels like something that should be nerfed, imho.

The recipes available are explicitly specified by Earendel, whether that assembly machine is in space or on the ground. The use of that assembly machine on earth is itself legal. The point that it is only a floor and not in the form of a spaceship is debatable. If necessary, suggestions should be made in the discord.

[spiral_power]

example
I am in the process of migrating to 0.6, so I am currently down to 630 spm

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[blazespinnaker]

example
I am in the process of migrating to 0.6, so I am currently down to 630 spm
1.png2.png

That's still very decent, especially if it's sustained. I can generally only get spm up if I have a few buffers filled. Sustained, it's pretty low

[ptx0]

haha i should have known to expect spoilers in this thread (after all, it's a finished base) but could you perhaps mark it as such in the primary title so that other fools like myself don't accidentally peek things we're not ready for yet? also free to say no, i respect your choices too.

[blazespinnaker]

Another thing is that we really should have a warehouse the size of the landing pad. Even if it costs the same resources. It seems a bit weird to spam landing pads everywhere, but it's sooo handy.

[spiral_power]

That's still very decent, especially if it's sustained. I can generally only get spm up if I have a few buffers filled. Sustained, it's pretty low

I understand your factory situation.
The spm should be calculated according to the bottleneck with the greatest impact.
Your insistence on 800 spm is misleading to others.
To take it to the extreme, if you accumulate a lot of SP and research it all at once, you can make spm as high as you want, can't you? And that it is a worthless number.
Let's end the talk about 80 uses of arcospheres.

haha i should have known to expect spoilers in this thread (after all, it's a finished base) but could you perhaps mark it as such in the primary title so that other fools like myself don't accidentally peek things we're not ready for yet? also free to say no, i respect your choices too.

This thread does not prohibit spoilers.
I have hidden things that I really don't want to disclose, such as detailed builds of arcospheres.
I'll add a spoiler notation.

[blazespinnaker]

I understand your factory situation.
The spm should be calculated according to the bottleneck with the greatest impact.
Your insistence on 800 spm is misleading to others.

Well, that's weirdly hostile. And we were having such a nice conversation. I said at the beginning it wasn't sustained.

I think it's great what you've done, and I imagine it required a great deal of effort, but maybe tone down the projection a bit.

The arcosphere setup I explained was very simple(now protected by spoilers, but you can read it again because you might have missed something), but it was very stable and had excellent throughput and wasn't the bottleneck that I dealt with.

[spiral_power]

Well, that's weirdly hostile. And we were having such a nice conversation. I said at the beginning it wasn't sustained.

I think it's great what you've done, and I imagine it required a great deal of effort, but maybe tone down the projection a bit.

The arcosphere setup I explained was very simple(now protected by spoilers, but you can read it again because you might have missed something), but it was very stable and had excellent throughput and wasn't the bottleneck that I dealt with.

If you feel something is wrong, it may be because of the translation.
Simply out of technical curiosity I wanted to know how much your spm was at 80 arcospheres, but you did not give an answer. I predicted in an earlier post that it would be lower than 100 spm.
That's all.

[spiral_power]

I finally finished mining the right side, so I trimmed and regenerated naq patches.

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[blazespinnaker]

If you feel something is wrong, it may be because of the translation.
Simply out of technical curiosity I wanted to know how much your spm was at 80 arcospheres, but you did not give an answer. I predicted in an earlier post that it would be lower than 100 spm.
That's all.

That's a very good question and great challenge! In many ways, it sort of goes to the heart of SE in terms of production as the arcospheres are limited - especially if you spend them on arco storage. Which I suppose was the ultimate point, but I think it would have been better made if arcostorage was more expensive. 50 arcospheres or so would have sharpened it quite nicely, IMHO.

I will endeavor to determine what my best sphere/dss output is and publish it to this thread. Might be awhile, as I'm just back on initial space sciences. I do encourage you to try out my production approach though. Really requires very little effort and you'll be pleasantly suprised at the production throughput I suspect. Just make sure to squeeze relevant bits close together, and of course, it goes without saying to have it all on a separate network.

[spiral_power]

I will endeavor to determine what my best sphere/dss output is and publish it to this thread. Might be awhile, as I'm just back on initial space sciences. I do encourage you to try out my production approach though. Really requires very little effort and you'll be pleasantly suprised at the production throughput I suspect. Just make sure to squeeze relevant bits close together, and of course, it goes without saying to have it all on a separate network.

I may not fully understand your method. Is it different from the generally well-known method of force-feeding, where some type of recipes are executed when there is more of a certain greek ? And my concern is that the method may not produce high spm and many arcospheres are needed.

In any case, please show me the results when you get them. Then I will be convinced.

[ptx0]

This thread does not prohibit spoilers.
I have hidden things that I really don't want to disclose, such as detailed builds of arcospheres.
I'll add a spoiler notation.

indeed, thank you! i was just dumb. nothing major lost.

[spiral_power]

I made the migration to 0.6.86 in the last week of September and am currently at 0.6.87 and stable at 210 spm.

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The migration followed these steps. It has been changed somewhat from previous posts. It is now complete except for e, which is slightly left d.
The research was stopped for 4.5 hours during the migration and took 5 days to stabilize.

1. Assembling 0.6 production chains using helmod
2. Reserve SP for added research
3. Adjustment of some station interfaces to facilitate migration to 0.6
4. Set up resource mines just in case the supply-demand balance changes drastically (iron, copper, coal, bery, holm, irid, methane)
5. Reduce the 0.5 factory from 1,360 spm to 630 spm
6. 0.6 ores process setup.
7. prepare 0.6 rocket, space, prod SP

a. Stop the 0.5 factory and switches to 0.6
b. Do some research added ( require 0.6 rocket SP )
c. setup new 0.6 facilities and gradually bring them on line (expect outages of several hours or days).
d. deconstruct 0.5 facilities
e. Optimization and aim for higher spm


One of the major characteristics (and difficulties) of SE is the management of by-products.
In 0.6.87 my factory looks like this below.

Wood:
Used to create circuits and the excess is converted to biosludge

Stone:
matter fusion uran, irid, beryl, and holm hybrid ( i.e. matter fusion only if there are extra stones )

Coal:
Unlike 0.5, generation from fragments is a little short. Currently I am mining from patch, but I will get it from coremining in due time.
I tried "Pressure cooking coal". But, it is inefficient in producing coal. It is also a recipe that should be used when there is a large surplus of biosludge or wood. That is not the case in this case.

Pyroflux:
Since it is not enough, it is generated by the vulc process.

Methane:
Generated by the vita process, but since the consumption in naq is more, so I am mining at asteroid belt 2. However it is in very small quantities.

I have not identified any positive (ever-increasing) by-product conditions, including the above.


Already the train transport between nauvis and norbit has been replaced by a 0.6 elevator. This eliminates the frequent and depressing lag caused by the spaceship elevator used in 0.5 and makes the game progress much more comfortable.
With steady operation at 210 spm and a 1.4 kspm facility (excess, however, this number is at 0.5, and should be more excessive at 0.6, since data cards are less consumed.) in norbit, UPS 60 and sleep is about 3-4 ms.
There are some minor UPS optimization ideas, so the spm target is 1k-1.4k spm.

[blazespinnaker]

I may not fully understand your method. Is it different from the generally well-known method of force-feeding, where some type of recipes are executed when there is more of a certain greek ? And my concern is that the method may not produce high spm and many arcospheres are needed.

No, and lol, I wasn't aware there were 'well known' things about SE. Probably because I don't do discord. I did try that approach though, I could not get it to work very well however. And you're right, it seemed quite slow.

Not sure it's a spoiler, but just in case -

This approach is similar perhaps, but it simply only requests when the output greeks are lesser than its inputs for a particular greek.

I hit a bit of a snag with SE in the new version unfortunately. The new space elevator is a ups killer Not sure if it can be fixed.

[blazespinnaker]

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Already the train transport between nauvis and norbit has been replaced by a 0.6 elevator. This eliminates the frequent and depressing lag caused by the spaceship elevator used in 0.5 and makes the game progress much more comfortable.

I'm seeing the opposite, unless by spaceship elevator you actually mean spaceships rather than cargo rockets. Spaceships could definitely be laggy.

Maybe I'll look for an update or something. Seems very very laggy every time a train goes through. UPS goes down to 30 from 60. No fun at all. My train is a bit long 20, but that's just about 800 stacks or so. A cargo rocket does 500 and only lagged it for a couple of seconds or so. My trains are going through every 3 minutes right now, but I'm fairly sure I had cargo rockets in my previous map firing off about every 30 seconds and it wasn't this bad. Plus I had spaceships moving things around as well. They definitely caused some lag but I didn't use them as frequently as cargo rockets.

Part of the problem might be is that trains are doubling the load, because they have to return, whereas cargo rockets did not. Also, it looks like he's rebuilding the trains on the fly as they go through.

Cargo rockets take up a lot of fuel, but the mod author could add something to fix that late game. Seems a shame to just let it lag out like that.

Rather than teleporting, perhaps what the mod author should do is have advanced packing technologies, like what is done for cargo parts. It can be deep max level black space science stuff. 10x, 100x, 1000x, etc. Maybe it can only be transported by space ship! That'd be cool.

[spiral_power]

I'm seeing the opposite. Maybe I'll look for an update or something. Seems very very laggy everytime train goes through. UPS goes down to 30 from 60. No fun at all. My train is a bit long 20, but that's just about 800 stacks or so. A cargo rocket does 500 and only lagged it for a couple of seconds or so. My trains are going through every 3 minutes right now, but I'm fairly sure I had cargo rockets in my previous map firing off about every 30 seconds and it wasn't this bad. Plus I had spaceships moving things around as well.

I wrote that it would be more UPS friendly to use the elevator in 0.6 than to use the spaceship that carries the train I used in 0.5.
Nothing more was said.

Also, please don't write any kind of suggestion for SE here. What do you expect from me? You should write to the appropriate channel on discord if necessary.

[blazespinnaker]

Yeah, I avoided using spaceships as much as possible, except for moving naq around and the DSS generating stuff. They felt buggy and were definitely UPS killers.

And no worries, I expect nothing of no one Just idle chatter.

Discord in general is a very bad idea, imho. Slack for work makes sense, but social media? A step too far, imho. Twitter is bad enough, but telegram channels hopefully will replace that nonsense. Facebook is OK as long form is accepted there.

[spiral_power]

Please let me know when you are able to give me the proper information on the arcospheres, as there is no point in talking about anything when I am unable to confirm it, and it would be a waste of both of our time.