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end-game iron/copper and steel smelting (non-smart)
Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2016 4:09 pm
by vanatteveldt
Below is a design for productivity + speed beacons based smelting, which outputs a blue belt of iron/copper plates using 13 smelters*
Output:
At crafting speed 1, a smelter with 20% productivity should produce x = (1 / 3.5) * 1.2 * 60 = 20.57 plates per minute.
Current setup has 11 at speed 9.4 and 2 at speed 7.4, giving (11 * 9.4 * x + 2 * 7.4 * x) = 2431.54 plates per minute, which is close to the maximum throughput of a blue belt at 2410. As far as I can see the is no real bottleneck. I'm not quite sure the balancer at the top is needed, but it might help to balance out temporary imbalances. I'm also not sure the bottom splitter is needed, but it divides the output over both lanes so each lane has 6.5 smelters.
Re: end-game smelting (non-smart)
Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2016 10:30 am
by vanatteveldt
For steel, I use the following setup:
Double productivity means (5 / 1.44 =) 3.5 iron ore to a steel. Since the iron smelter is more productive, less iron smelters are needed per steel smelter.
Of course, I could just output iron plates to a row of steel furnaces, but I prefer keeping them together so it's easy to control (I switch off power to a block if buffers are full) and can be expanded as needed without affecting iron plate capacity.
So, I decided to use fewer beacons for the iron smelters, 6 beacons per iron and 8 beacons per steel smelter gives a small (5%) loss in steel output, but iron will be buffered if there is too much steel, so it won't affect production unless it's running full-time. Adding another beacon to the iron production gives a 7% overproduction of iron.
The current setup is designed to be as long as the iron/copper smelters so it's easy to tile and share beacons. It uses almost exactly a red belt of iron ore (26.3/s), and produces just over a lane of yellow belt of steel (7.5/s)
(note: just noticed one of the beacons misses the modules, this is corrected in the blueprint string.
This setup can be tiled by mirrorring, producing 15 steel/s from 52 ore/s. If you remove three smelters from all columns you consume exactly one blue belt of ore and produce almost a full yellow belt of steel:
And finally a longer version that consumes 2 blue belts of ore and outputs almost a full red belt of steel (23/s):
Re: end-game iron/copper and steel smelting (non-smart)
Posted: Sat Nov 19, 2016 9:07 pm
by socket
vanatteveldt wrote:Below is a design for productivity + speed beacons based smelting, which outputs a blue belt of iron/copper plates using 13 smelters*
Hi vanatteveldt, I think your first setup has a problem: the bottom 6 furnaces all have output on the left side of the final belt and the other 7 furnaces have output on the other side.
The splitter for the bottom furnace doesn't matter as the whole bottom half of the output gets side-loaded onto the left side of the belt.
This limits production as 5 furnaces at 9.4 and 1 at 7.4 produce only about 18.65 plates per second (one side of a blue belt can carry 20 items per second).
As a result, the top half of furnaces should back up faster than expected while the left side of the output belt should have empty space.
Rebalancing doesn't fix it as before rebalancing the belt is already not full.
Re: end-game iron/copper and steel smelting (non-smart)
Posted: Sun Nov 20, 2016 11:33 am
by vanatteveldt
Thanks for the comments! I'll have a better look at the splitting, you're right that the bottom splitter doesn't solve the problem.
Edit: let me add a link to your design from the 'clever builds' thread:
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=6008&start=420#p225683
Edit2: I had a look in creative mode, I don't see any gaps in the output belt. It outputs just under 2.4k/m, the 5s statistic seems to oscillate between 200 and 199 plates, with 200/5s being the maximum output of a blue belt. So I think it is producing at very close to maximum blue belt output.
You're right of course that the first splitter has no effect in the current setup, and indeed one of the top-7 smelters is getting backed up (no 9 seems to freeze for 10-20% of the time).
It's a while ago since I made the setup, but the reason I think it is working is that the last two smelters actually output on a separate belt which is joined at the balancer. Without the balancer, output drops to around 193/5s or 2.3/m. The theoretical maximum output of the whole setup is (2*7.4 + 11*9.4)*1.2 / 3.5 = 40.5 plates/s, so it makes sense that one of the smelters is running at <100%. Maybe a better inserter setup and/or inserting into underground belts would work without the balancer, but as far as I can see this setup is almost "perfect" in the sense that it has maximal output with minimal amount of beacons.
I have no idea how to increase output from ~2390/m to 2400 without outputting to an underground belt, I've tried a couple of things but it always blocks somewhere else.
Re: end-game iron/copper and steel smelting (non-smart)
Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2016 6:39 pm
by socket
vanatteveldt wrote:
Edit2: I had a look in creative mode, I don't see any gaps in the output belt. It outputs just under 2.4k/m, the 5s statistic seems to oscillate between 200 and 199 plates, with 200/5s being the maximum output of a blue belt. So I think it is producing at very close to maximum blue belt output.
You're right of course that the first splitter has no effect in the current setup, and indeed one of the top-7 smelters is getting backed up (no 9 seems to freeze for 10-20% of the time).
It's a while ago since I made the setup, but the reason I think it is working is that the last two smelters actually output on a separate belt which is joined at the balancer. Without the balancer, output drops to around 193/5s or 2.3/m. The theoretical maximum output of the whole setup is (2*7.4 + 11*9.4)*1.2 / 3.5 = 40.5 plates/s, so it makes sense that one of the smelters is running at <100%. Maybe a better inserter setup and/or inserting into underground belts would work without the balancer, but as far as I can see this setup is almost "perfect" in the sense that it has maximal output with minimal amount of beacons.
You are right, the rebalancer fixes the problem! Sorry, I should have tested it first before commenting. I had similar issues but I didn't try rebalancing as it made designs slightly larger.
vanatteveldt wrote:
I have no idea how to increase output from ~2390/m to 2400 without outputting to an underground belt, I've tried a couple of things but it always blocks somewhere else.
The technique I like to use is to have two half-full output belts and merge them at the end instead of merging with a single output belt. Maybe it can be used here. I have fixed my design you've linked by the way, edited my post there.
I'm not sure the rebalancer can be removed though. At some point some balancing is required because number of furnaces is odd.
Re: end-game iron/copper and steel smelting (non-smart)
Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2016 10:06 pm
by nr2117
hi, noob here.
That code you got there, I can copy and paste that into my game, what happens, how? Does it make a blueprint?
Re: end-game iron/copper and steel smelting (non-smart)
Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2016 12:23 am
by vanatteveldt
nr2117 wrote:hi, noob here.
That code you got there, I can copy and paste that into my game, what happens, how? Does it make a blueprint?
Welcome
You need the blueprint string mod:
https://mods.factorio.com/mods/DaveMcW/blueprint-string
Re: end-game iron/copper and steel smelting (non-smart)
Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2017 1:59 pm
by hansinator
vanatteveldt wrote:
I have no idea how to increase output from ~2390/m to 2400 without outputting to an underground belt, I've tried a couple of things but it always blocks somewhere else.
Why wouldn't you want to output to underground belts? It would make it cheaper since all those splitters cost advanced cirucits.
Re: end-game iron/copper and steel smelting (non-smart)
Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 10:04 am
by vanatteveldt
hansinator wrote:vanatteveldt wrote:
I have no idea how to increase output from ~2390/m to 2400 without outputting to an underground belt, I've tried a couple of things but it always blocks somewhere else.
Why wouldn't you want to output to underground belts? It would make it cheaper since all those splitters cost advanced cirucits.
Somehow it feels like an exploit, but maybe that's just me being silly. And to be honest I've never really tried, so I don't know exactly how to set that up
Re: end-game iron/copper and steel smelting (non-smart)
Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 2:07 pm
by hansinator
vanatteveldt wrote:
Somehow it feels like an exploit, but maybe that's just me being silly. And to be honest I've never really tried, so I don't know exactly how to set that up
I know what you mean, but it is so convenient. As soon as inserters output onto a nearly compressed underground belt exit/entrance from the side they exploit that, like in socket's design. Lot's of things wouldn't be possible without and I think it is not that bad.
From my test map:
The combinator makes the belt nearly compressed, so there is a 1-tick gap every 9 ticks. Then the nice underground belts get a request from the inserters to stop the belts just long enough so they can output their items into them. How nice of them!
Do you notice the stuttering on the input side when the inserters drop their stuff? That's how it works. Interestingly you can see some copper plates flicker on the upper underground belt entrance in the first few frames of the gif. Never seen that in-game though, must have to do with the gif recorder. But it explains whats happening technically: The underground belts just remove the items in front of them when it's time. In fact they are teleporters. The tiny 1-tick gaps in the input mean that there is no plate immediately following so for a very brief period of time an item-sized free slot appears on the belt.
Re: end-game smelting (non-smart)
Posted: Fri Mar 24, 2017 2:05 pm
by pieppiep
This is 11+11+5+11+11 beacons.
If you switch the 2 parts, iron on the outside and steel on the inside, you need 5+11+11+11+5 beacons, saving 6 beacons.
Re: end-game iron/copper and steel smelting (non-smart)
Posted: Fri Mar 24, 2017 5:52 pm
by vanatteveldt
That makes perfect sense, good idea
Re: end-game iron/copper and steel smelting (non-smart)
Posted: Thu May 04, 2017 6:45 pm
by Jesus8000
why endgame with red belts =?
and i cant add these blueprints with v15.x ????
edit: i red, that cant import blueprints from 14.x to 15.x
can u repost it in version 15.x?
Re: end-game iron/copper and steel smelting (non-smart)
Posted: Sat May 13, 2017 2:33 am
by axelsword
Steel, iron, copper, but don't forget brick ! It's important because it's used to produce purple science.
Re: end-game iron/copper and steel smelting (non-smart)
Posted: Sun May 14, 2017 5:43 am
by Phantom329
I got a 2.4k/m setup that uses less splitters. Same amount of smelters and beacons though. Looks like about 32.4MW. You can actually remove one of the speed modules in one of the top beacons and it will still maintain 2.4k/m and the top smelter will build up slower. (second image)
Re: end-game iron/copper and steel smelting (non-smart)
Posted: Thu May 18, 2017 7:32 am
by iceman_1212
Here's one which uses no splitters but more underground belt and a few more inserters. I thought the lack of splitters and limited visible belt might make it just a tad more UPS friendly (esp the splitters) which could add up across large smelting volumes. It does cost more iron but by the time these beaconed systems are put into play, it's a rounding error.
Re: end-game iron/copper and steel smelting (non-smart)
Posted: Thu May 18, 2017 7:50 am
by vanatteveldt
Yeah when I built those designs I didn't know about using UG belts for compression, so these are much nicer and simpler, thanks!
