3 and 4 way intersections

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SaiMoen
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Re: 3 and 4 way intersections

Post by SaiMoen »

Had this interesting 4-way junction where there is a small bidirectional part. Got the following results from testing it once: 1: 53, 2: 39, 3: 47, s: 46. I call it the Celtic Nope, but I don't even know if this is similar enough to the Celtic Knot.


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hansjoachim
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Re: 3 and 4 way intersections

Post by hansjoachim »

aaargha wrote: ↑
Mon Nov 22, 2021 8:45 pm
Good stuff guys! It's really heartening to see this carried on!

There is so much spirit of invention in this community that I have no doubt this this thread will generate a lot of discussions/innovation, even my old thread had a lot of activity long after I dropped off (thank you to everyone who participated, especially all of you that has shared designs and insight to keep it going - you guys are all amazing!) Keep collaborating, innovating and having fun - I have no doubt this is in good hands.

My request: go all the way! Make this the definitive repository for intersection testing. Make my thread obsolete for anything but history/archaeology. (Surpass Metal Gear etc. etc.) Most (if not all) of the blueprints from the old thread can still be accessed using the Wayback machine or, if you're interested, I probably have all my source material, blueprints included, on some drive somewhere, let me know if you guys want it and I'll have a look this weekend.

And, as a parting "gift" I shall submit my magnum opus for evaluation: one of the greatest works of engineering of today - right up there with the Apollo Program, the Large Hadron Collider, sliced bread, or double ply toilet paper (in case anyone was unsure whether this part is a shitpost or not ;) ).

Finally, good luck, have fun, and Godspeed!
Thanks aaargha! You have been missed

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Re: 3 and 4 way intersections

Post by Hovedgade »

I have made a some blueprints myself and tested them on the testbench. Feel free to add them to the list. Altough I beleive the the stack interchange is a little too similar to the Cross by Tallinu, so adding that one may not be preferential.

Small turbo roundabout
Set 1; 78, set 2: 61, set 3: 43 β‡’ Score: 61


Compressed turbo roundabout
Set 1: 91, Set 2: 71, Set 3: 42 β‡’ Score: 68


Stack interchange
Set 1: 73, Set 2: 50, Set 3: 48 β‡’ Score: 57


Additionally I also tested a intersection by u/Communist_Fella with the following results:
Set 1: 105, Set 2: 77, Set 3: 48 β‡’ Score: 77

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Re: 3 and 4 way intersections

Post by Kano96 »

Lubricus wrote: ↑
Mon Nov 22, 2021 10:14 am
Checking the other intersections. It's only a slightly tighter version of this https://factoriobin.com/post/01B6XBlB
So it's an improvment but slight.
True, I replaced it with your new version.
Lubricus wrote: ↑
Mon Nov 22, 2021 12:37 pm
It's hard to find the separete scores for the LHD and RHD versions. For me the LHD and RHD versions is separate designs and shoundn't be lumped together. Is it possible to filter by LHD and RHD? Maybe also spacing between the rails. I chose LHD/RHD and spacing after the intersections I design not the other way around so for me it would be best to have a straight list with all the designs.
Yeah I agree, LHD and RHD are technically different designs, the current organization is a compromise. We could just add a new category for RHD/LHD and put them in two separate lists, but as you said, if you want to actually compare the different designs it's easier to have one big list containing all designs. We are just trying to find a middle ground between the two. Also the old crushed wide had two different rail spacings for RHD/LHD which is something we don't allow, so those two should have been two different entries.

Filtering the list is currently impossible. I would love to make this possible and then just have one big list for all designs, but I did not find a way to do it in a forum post.

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Re: 3 and 4 way intersections

Post by Kano96 »

FWD wrote: ↑
Mon Nov 22, 2021 11:04 am
Thank you for making this, the tester works wonders and is easy to use as of 4.2.1.

4 ways, 2 lanes, 2-4 trains, LHD, single buffered intersection. I believe the design might exist under the name "Turbine" even though I happened to make it naturally, but I didn't see it online yet. I use a smaller 2-3 trains version on my main.

Compact and easy to resize, and looks quite good.

LHD scores : 39/25/24

Image

https://imgur.com/a/XK07MO0

Pretty cool, it does look quite nice, but tbh that score isn't very good. Right now you separate your straight and right turn path in front of the junction, just to then let them intersect again once they enter the center. You can easily avoid this by just switching the two paths, so have the right turn closer to the center and the straight on the outside, which should significantly increase performance. That would probably also give you some space in the center to separate the paths with chain signals, which is the second big problem holding it back.

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Re: 3 and 4 way intersections

Post by Kano96 »

mmmPI wrote: ↑
Mon Nov 22, 2021 12:43 pm
Lubricus wrote: ↑
Mon Nov 22, 2021 10:14 am
Checking the other intersections. It's only a slightly tighter version of this https://factoriobin.com/post/01B6XBlB
So it's an improvment but slight.
This is correct !

i think there was a misunderstanding, i wanted to say that your version, the more compact, is missing 4 chain signal on the website factoriobin, i saw that from the screenshot because when looking at the blueprint i didn't notice.

I think it should replace the existing (obsolete because bigger) Crushed Wide (LHD) eventually but tests takes time :).

[I did the conversion from RHD to LHD so i'm responsible for the suboptimal existing version that's why i recognized it, i tried to make it as similar as the RHD and as small as possible, i think you came up with a better junction from scratch since small size was the goal ;I would tend to agree LHD and RHD version sometimes feel like a different design, which could yield different score]



I tried to make a small junction of my own and it ended up being a more compact RHD version of "compact". in the 4 way 2 lane unbuffered (44x44 RHD instead of 46x46 RHD). where the LHD version is only 36x36 !
Compact RHD 44x44


In another attempt to make it smaller I ended up with a symetrical version of the " asymetric 6 tile RHD" although larger, 34x34 instead of 30x29.
symetrical cross 6 tile
True, replaced the rhd compact with yours.

Yeah I wanted to add that symmetrical cross already, it's a pretty natural design. I changed the signaling to be optimal for testing and made an LHD version. It scored a Set1:51, Set2:40, Set3:50, Score:47 which puts it at the top of unbuffered 2lanes.

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Re: 3 and 4 way intersections

Post by farcast »

Kano96 wrote: ↑
Wed Nov 24, 2021 5:27 am
Filtering the list is currently impossible. I would love to make this possible and then just have one big list for all designs, but I did not find a way to do it in a forum post.
Put each entry into a new reply, then we can use the forum search. :D
Efficient inefficient design.

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Re: 3 and 4 way intersections

Post by SaiMoen »

Testbench v4.2.1, Factorio v1.1.46
3-Way, 2-Lane, Unbuffered, spacing is 4 everywhere. Currently better than the only thing listed on that section.
R452736.png
R452736.png (740.96 KiB) Viewed 151 times

Results with exit blocks; 1:45, 2:27, s:36.

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Re: 3 and 4 way intersections

Post by farcast »

Clockwork
Clockwork in action.gif
Clockwork in action.gif (404.6 KiB) Viewed 117 times
What could be better than having synchronized crossings? Having synchronized straights too!

RHD & LHD Score: 81
Set 1: 83
Set 2: 80
Set 3: 82

Given scores were obtained with 30 rail tile signal spacing for incoming trains only. It's okay to add this to the list.

Signal spacing seems to be less important now, of the spacings I've tested (4, 14, 19, 27, 30 rails) sets 1 & 3 were always above 80, and set 3 was always stable. The worst I've seen was 70 TPM for set 2, and that was with 4 rail spacing.

An earlier version of clockwork just wouldn't re-synchronize after a disruption with 27 rail signal spacing and needed 30, but rail spacing isn't much of an issue now. The only relevant difference from then is that the buffers were lengthened from 27 rails to 30 rails. Maybe increasing the buffer size increased the tolerance? Maybe there's a sweet spot for buffer size where signal spacing isn't needed anymore?

My current theory is that crossings have a sort-of resonant frequency from when a chain signal turns yellow to when that same chain signal turns yellow again. Signal spacing helps with synchronization by throttling train arrivals to a frequency similar to that of the slowest crossing. Buffer size should only matter so far as it affects how much trains need to slow down and how far away the next crossing is, and as a consequence, how quickly they clear the previous crossing and the next crossing.

An intersection can be synchronous if the graph of the buffers is 2 colorable, where 2 buffers share an edge if they are consecutive in the direction of travel, or if the paths cross at the end of both buffers. More intuitively, you should be able to mark each buffer as either "train" or "no train", alternating as you trace each path until you've marked every buffer without 2 "train"s or "no train"s in a row and without 2 "train"s both pointed at or away from where they would immediately cross.

Benefits of designing intersections this way:
-consistent mid-high tier throughput in all situations
-potentially linear throughput scaling with more lanes since synchronous crossings in series won't lower throughput
-very fun to watch

Downsides:
-Extremely finicky
-restricted max throughput
-synchronized trains means synchronized re-paths

Efficient inefficient design.

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Re: 3 and 4 way intersections

Post by Kano96 »

farcast wrote: ↑
Wed Nov 24, 2021 7:35 am
Kano96 wrote: ↑
Wed Nov 24, 2021 5:27 am
Filtering the list is currently impossible. I would love to make this possible and then just have one big list for all designs, but I did not find a way to do it in a forum post.
Put each entry into a new reply, then we can use the forum search. :D
Simple, yet elegant. I'll make sure to remember this for the next intersection post. :P
SaiMoen wrote: ↑
Thu Nov 25, 2021 4:58 pm
Testbench v4.2.1, Factorio v1.1.46
3-Way, 2-Lane, Unbuffered, spacing is 4 everywhere. Currently better than the only thing listed on that section.
R452736.png

Results with exit blocks; 1:45, 2:27, s:36.
Your design is essentially equivalent to the existing entry, so it didn't make any sense that you scored that much higher. I restested the original design and it also scored a 46|27 , meaning the original results were somehow messed up. Thanks for the contribution, I added a 4tile version to the entries blueprints.

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Re: 3 and 4 way intersections

Post by Kano96 »

aaargha wrote: ↑
Mon Nov 22, 2021 8:45 pm
Good stuff guys! It's really heartening to see this carried on!

There is so much spirit of invention in this community that I have no doubt this this thread will generate a lot of discussions/innovation, even my old thread had a lot of activity long after I dropped off (thank you to everyone who participated, especially all of you that has shared designs and insight to keep it going - you guys are all amazing!) Keep collaborating, innovating and having fun - I have no doubt this is in good hands.

My request: go all the way! Make this the definitive repository for intersection testing. Make my thread obsolete for anything but history/archaeology. (Surpass Metal Gear etc. etc.) Most (if not all) of the blueprints from the old thread can still be accessed using the Wayback machine or, if you're interested, I probably have all my source material, blueprints included, on some drive somewhere, let me know if you guys want it and I'll have a look this weekend.

And, as a parting "gift" I shall submit my magnum opus for evaluation: one of the greatest works of engineering of today - right up there with the Apollo Program, the Large Hadron Collider, sliced bread, or double ply toilet paper (in case anyone was unsure whether this part is a shitpost or not ;) ).
No Gods


Finally, good luck, have fun, and Godspeed!
Thanks for laying the foundation to make all of this possible. :)

Also we don't accept entire train networks as submissions, sorry. :P

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Re: 3 and 4 way intersections

Post by Kano96 »

causa-sui wrote: ↑
Mon Nov 22, 2021 3:32 pm
Factoriointersection wrote: ↑
Sun Nov 21, 2021 9:41 pm
Do you have the LHD version as well? I'll test and add this one
I asked Bocian to convert it to LHD and he did, because he's a swell guy

That design is already submitted under the name "Whirlpool" in the 2lane buffered category. I added the LHD version.

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Re: 3 and 4 way intersections

Post by Kano96 »

SaiMoen wrote: ↑
Mon Nov 22, 2021 10:24 pm
Had this interesting 4-way junction where there is a small bidirectional part. Got the following results from testing it once: 1: 53, 2: 39, 3: 47, s: 46. I call it the Celtic Nope, but I don't even know if this is similar enough to the Celtic Knot.

You need to have safe exit blocks when testing an intersection, look at the "Testing" section of the post for an explanation (I added it recently, probably after you commented, so not your fault). I retested it with safe exit blocks and got a 48|37|46|44 . The signaling was already optimal and I like the aesthetics, so it's added to the post. Also the name lol :D

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Re: 3 and 4 way intersections

Post by SaiMoen »

Kano96 wrote: ↑
Fri Nov 26, 2021 12:59 pm
SaiMoen wrote: ↑
Mon Nov 22, 2021 10:24 pm
Had this interesting 4-way junction where there is a small bidirectional part. Got the following results from testing it once: 1: 53, 2: 39, 3: 47, s: 46. I call it the Celtic Nope, but I don't even know if this is similar enough to the Celtic Knot.

You need to have safe exit blocks when testing an intersection, look at the "Testing" section of the post for an explanation (I added it recently, probably after you commented, so not your fault). I retested it with safe exit blocks and got a 48|37|46|44 . The signaling was already optimal and I like the aesthetics, so it's added to the post. Also the name lol :D
Yep I can't read :cry:
Oh and also, the size is listed incorrectly because I forgot to remove the big electric poles so the intersection itself is actually 48x48, not 61x61.

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