3 and 4 way intersections

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causa-sui
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Re: 3 and 4 way intersections

Post by causa-sui »

DaveMcW wrote: ↑
Sun Nov 21, 2021 7:04 am
Branch Predictor
Ran a test with 1:4 trains and the result doesn't seem ideal. (see attachment)



Did I do something wrong? Or is this just a BP where worst case is extremely bad but in practical situations it does better?

Edit:
Factoriointersection wrote: ↑
Sun Nov 21, 2021 3:12 pm

That is pretty cool:) it gets a score of 53 which is better than an 2 lane unbuffered intersections. Regulary turning signals of, with combinators, causes trains to repath and try to avoid the intersection.
I got 42/33/48/41.
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out.mp4
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Re: 3 and 4 way intersections

Post by Factoriointersection »

Lubricus wrote: ↑
Sun Nov 21, 2021 5:59 pm
I have a design that I haven't seen any other use and shouldn't be too bad. 4-way unbuffered
https://factorioblueprints.tech/api/str ... c6df053472

https://factorioblueprints.tech/bluepri ... 450d3521dd
Nice, but it deadlocks.
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Deadlock.jpg
Deadlock.jpg (743.66 KiB) Viewed 398 times

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Re: 3 and 4 way intersections

Post by Factoriointersection »

causa-sui wrote: ↑
Sun Nov 21, 2021 8:27 pm
DaveMcW wrote: ↑
Sun Nov 21, 2021 7:04 am
Branch Predictor
Ran a test with 1:4 trains and the result doesn't seem ideal. (see attachment)



Did I do something wrong? Or is this just a BP where the worst case is extremely bad but in practical situations, it does better?

Edit:
Factoriointersection wrote: ↑
Sun Nov 21, 2021 3:12 pm

That is pretty cool:) it gets a score of 53 which is better than a 2 lane unbuffered intersection. Regularly turning signals of, with combinators, causes trains to repath and try to avoid the intersection.
I got 42/33/48/41.
1-4 trains results are not comparable to 2-4 trains.
Regarding your video. That can happen in set 3, in-game it wouldn't happen though because you won't have trains that tightly packed.

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Re: 3 and 4 way intersections

Post by mmmPI »

Factoriointersection wrote: ↑
Sun Nov 21, 2021 9:28 pm
Lubricus wrote: ↑
Sun Nov 21, 2021 5:59 pm
I have a design that I haven't seen any other use and shouldn't be too bad. 4-way unbuffered
https://factorioblueprints.tech/api/str ... c6df053472

https://factorioblueprints.tech/bluepri ... 450d3521dd
Nice, but it deadlocks.
I think there are missing signals one the screenshot from the test :
pic




It look like a ( more ) compact LHD version of the one called "crushed wide" in the 4 way 2 lane unbuffered

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Re: 3 and 4 way intersections

Post by Factoriointersection »

causa-sui wrote: ↑
Sun Nov 21, 2021 8:08 pm
2-lane, 4-way buffered by Tallinu. RHD.



Results in testbench 4.2.1, factorio 1.1.46 (build 59110, linux amd64): 45/48/45/46
Do you have the LHD version as well? I'll test and add this one

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Re: 3 and 4 way intersections

Post by aerolfos »

I cannot design a junction that's better - so instead, I've made something incredibly cursed.
image

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Re: 3 and 4 way intersections

Post by causa-sui »

Factoriointersection wrote: ↑
Sun Nov 21, 2021 9:41 pm

Do you have the LHD version as well? I'll test and add this one
Unfortunately no :(

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Re: 3 and 4 way intersections

Post by Sopel »

Thank you for your effort! This thread was really needed.

One note, Compressed Multicross can, I think, be tested with unsafe output. Even though the signals on the output lanes are placed closer than train length apart there are no chain signals there. Additional safe output would only be needed if the intersection ended earlier than the last chain signal could be influenced from. Same goes for other intersections with similar properties. It might change the throughput.

Also, the actual size is 128x128 (4x4 chunks), but the poles stand out (to be tilable). Here's the original reddit thread too https://www.reddit.com/r/factorio/comme ... tion_with/.

I suggest enabling comments in the doc, it would be easier to post corrections that way I feel :)

btw. I think it would be nice to know which intersections are best for UPS too. Possibly UPS/train measure could be useful. The pathing can also impact performance, as well as diagonal tracks. I was thinking about a setup where there's a grid of, say, 8 by 8 intersections and trains going randomly between all 32 possible ends.

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Re: 3 and 4 way intersections

Post by DaveMcW »

Factoriointersection wrote: ↑
Sun Nov 21, 2021 3:12 pm
Regularly turning signals off, with combinators, causes trains to repath and try to avoid the intersection.
I know it has a pathfinding penalty, but does it really make trains repath if they are already travelling through the intersection?

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Re: 3 and 4 way intersections

Post by Kano96 »

aerolfos wrote: ↑
Sun Nov 21, 2021 11:31 pm
I cannot design a junction that's better - so instead, I've made something incredibly cursed.
image
This is the quality content I'm here for :D
DaveMcW wrote: ↑
Mon Nov 22, 2021 12:44 am
Factoriointersection wrote: ↑
Sun Nov 21, 2021 3:12 pm
Regularly turning signals off, with combinators, causes trains to repath and try to avoid the intersection.
I know it has a pathfinding penalty, but does it really make trains repath if they are already travelling through the intersection?
No, not when they are already commited to traveling through the intersection. However, they do repath way before then while they still have multiple options available. Trains recalculate their path quite often while traveling through the train network, every time they have to slow down for example. When your rail signals are set to red during that recalculation, the train will probably chose a less optimal path that avoids your intersection, granted there is one available.

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Re: 3 and 4 way intersections

Post by Kano96 »

Sopel wrote: ↑
Mon Nov 22, 2021 12:03 am
Thank you for your effort! This thread was really needed.

One note, Compressed Multicross can, I think, be tested with unsafe output. Even though the signals on the output lanes are placed closer than train length apart there are no chain signals there. Additional safe output would only be needed if the intersection ended earlier than the last chain signal could be influenced from. Same goes for other intersections with similar properties. It might change the throughput.

Also, the actual size is 128x128 (4x4 chunks), but the poles stand out (to be tilable). Here's the original reddit thread too https://www.reddit.com/r/factorio/comme ... tion_with/.

I suggest enabling comments in the doc, it would be easier to post corrections that way I feel :)

btw. I think it would be nice to know which intersections are best for UPS too. Possibly UPS/train measure could be useful. The pathing can also impact performance, as well as diagonal tracks. I was thinking about a setup where there's a grid of, say, 8 by 8 intersections and trains going randomly between all 32 possible ends.
Damn I was impressed when I first saw the compressed multicross. I got it from your comment on the previous forum thread in case you're wondering.

I'm pretty sure I did test it with unsafe inputs, it's just not noted in the doc (it's not noted for a lot of the newer designs). We already use unsafe inputs whenever possible, just like you described it. Maybe I should clarify that in the description. Also the size is adjusted and comments are enabled now.

UPS performance would be interesting, but that would require too much work for now. Maybe in the future one day.

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Re: 3 and 4 way intersections

Post by Lubricus »

Factoriointersection wrote: ↑
Sun Nov 21, 2021 9:28 pm
Lubricus wrote: ↑
Sun Nov 21, 2021 5:59 pm
I have a design that I haven't seen any other use and shouldn't be too bad. 4-way unbuffered
https://factorioblueprints.tech/api/str ... c6df053472

https://factorioblueprints.tech/bluepri ... 450d3521dd
Nice, but it deadlocks.
Then just add the chainsignals then it won't deadlock

BP: 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Re: 3 and 4 way intersections

Post by Lubricus »

3-way instersection 4 lanes buffered. Should have hight throuput and the design is quite easily expanded to more lanes if needed.
https://factorioblueprints.tech/bluepri ... 83aac6d9ce

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Re: 3 and 4 way intersections

Post by Lubricus »

Factoriointersection wrote: ↑
Sun Nov 21, 2021 9:28 pm
Lubricus wrote: ↑
Sun Nov 21, 2021 5:59 pm
I have a design that I haven't seen any other use and shouldn't be too bad. 4-way unbuffered
https://factorioblueprints.tech/api/str ... c6df053472

https://factorioblueprints.tech/bluepri ... 450d3521dd
Nice, but it deadlocks.
Checking the other intersections. It's only a slightly tighter version of this https://factoriobin.com/post/01B6XBlB
So it's an improvment but slight.

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Re: 3 and 4 way intersections

Post by FWD »

Thank you for making this, the tester works wonders and is easy to use as of 4.2.1.

4 ways, 2 lanes, 2-4 trains, LHD, single buffered intersection. I believe the design might exist under the name "Turbine" even though I happened to make it naturally, but I didn't see it online yet. I use a smaller 2-3 trains version on my main.

Compact and easy to resize, and looks quite good.

LHD scores : 39/25/24

Image

https://imgur.com/a/XK07MO0


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Re: 3 and 4 way intersections

Post by Lubricus »

It's hard to find the separete scores for the LHD and RHD versions. For me the LHD and RHD versions is separate designs and shoundn't be lumped together. Is it possible to filter by LHD and RHD? Maybe also spacing between the rails. I chose LHD/RHD and spacing after the intersections I design not the other way around so for me it would be best to have a straight list with all the designs.

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Re: 3 and 4 way intersections

Post by mmmPI »

Lubricus wrote: ↑
Mon Nov 22, 2021 10:14 am
Checking the other intersections. It's only a slightly tighter version of this https://factoriobin.com/post/01B6XBlB
So it's an improvment but slight.
This is correct !

i think there was a misunderstanding, i wanted to say that your version, the more compact, is missing 4 chain signal on the website factoriobin, i saw that from the screenshot because when looking at the blueprint i didn't notice.

I think it should replace the existing (obsolete because bigger) Crushed Wide (LHD) eventually but tests takes time :).

[I did the conversion from RHD to LHD so i'm responsible for the suboptimal existing version that's why i recognized it, i tried to make it as similar as the RHD and as small as possible, i think you came up with a better junction from scratch since small size was the goal ;I would tend to agree LHD and RHD version sometimes feel like a different design, which could yield different score]



I tried to make a small junction of my own and it ended up being a more compact RHD version of "compact". in the 4 way 2 lane unbuffered (44x44 RHD instead of 46x46 RHD). where the LHD version is only 36x36 !
Compact RHD 44x44


In another attempt to make it smaller I ended up with a symetrical version of the " asymetric 6 tile RHD" although larger, 34x34 instead of 30x29.
symetrical cross 6 tile

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Re: 3 and 4 way intersections

Post by Lubricus »

Lubricus wrote: ↑
Mon Nov 22, 2021 10:07 am
3-way instersection 4 lanes buffered. Should have hight throuput and the design is quite easily expanded to more lanes if needed.
https://factorioblueprints.tech/bluepri ... 83aac6d9ce
Made an variant for 2:4 trains the original is for 3:8 trains.
https://factorioblueprints.tech/bluepri ... 05955d00c3

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Re: 3 and 4 way intersections

Post by causa-sui »

Factoriointersection wrote: ↑
Sun Nov 21, 2021 9:41 pm
Do you have the LHD version as well? I'll test and add this one
I asked Bocian to convert it to LHD and he did, because he's a swell guy


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Re: 3 and 4 way intersections

Post by aaargha »

Good stuff guys! It's really heartening to see this carried on!

There is so much spirit of invention in this community that I have no doubt this this thread will generate a lot of discussions/innovation, even my old thread had a lot of activity long after I dropped off (thank you to everyone who participated, especially all of you that has shared designs and insight to keep it going - you guys are all amazing!) Keep collaborating, innovating and having fun - I have no doubt this is in good hands.

My request: go all the way! Make this the definitive repository for intersection testing. Make my thread obsolete for anything but history/archaeology. (Surpass Metal Gear etc. etc.) Most (if not all) of the blueprints from the old thread can still be accessed using the Wayback machine or, if you're interested, I probably have all my source material, blueprints included, on some drive somewhere, let me know if you guys want it and I'll have a look this weekend.

And, as a parting "gift" I shall submit my magnum opus for evaluation: one of the greatest works of engineering of today - right up there with the Apollo Program, the Large Hadron Collider, sliced bread, or double ply toilet paper (in case anyone was unsure whether this part is a shitpost or not ;) ).
No Gods


Finally, good luck, have fun, and Godspeed!

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