3 and 4 way intersections
Re: 3 and 4 way intersections
After some additional testing I've thoroughly convinced myself that you are right and this is not a property of buffered intersections at all, but rather it's a consequence of how trains path in factorio more generally. That means this problem, while real, is off topic for this thread. Therefore, I'll take some of your suggestions into account and develop solutions elsewhere. Sorry for the detour, and thanks for everything y'all have contributed here.
Re: 3 and 4 way intersections
This is really the way, i was wondering why posted 3-ways are still unoptimized at the center. When 3 rails form a triangle, only 1 train can pass at the time. It doesn't add any benefits putting chain signals in it, but instead shrink the rails to form a "star". It makes chain-rail pairs closer together and lets trains clear the crossing faster.
Re: 3 and 4 way intersections
I am back with more intersections.
I took some inspiration from my blitz roundabout but then i rotated it 45°and added frontend buffers. The first design does not use parallel buffers for the same direction and it scored slightly better than Windmill MK2. The second design has more parallel buffers than absolutely necessary which made it score about the same as Hurricane 1.2. The intersections does look somewhat similar to mosaic tiles and hence the reasoning behind the names.
Mosaic MK1
RHT, Size: 176x176, Spacing: 4 tiles, Train length: 1 to 6 cars
LHT, Size: 176x176, Spacing: 4 tiles, Train length: 1 to 6 cars
RHT, Size: 220x220, Spacing: 4 tiles, Train length: 1 to 6 cars
LHT, Size: 224x224, Spacing: 4 tiles, Train length: 1 to 6 cars
There was an accident while designing the intersections which made this beautiful pattern that I'd like to share.
I took some inspiration from my blitz roundabout but then i rotated it 45°and added frontend buffers. The first design does not use parallel buffers for the same direction and it scored slightly better than Windmill MK2. The second design has more parallel buffers than absolutely necessary which made it score about the same as Hurricane 1.2. The intersections does look somewhat similar to mosaic tiles and hence the reasoning behind the names.
Mosaic MK1
RHT, Size: 176x176, Spacing: 4 tiles, Train length: 1 to 6 cars
LHT, Size: 176x176, Spacing: 4 tiles, Train length: 1 to 6 cars
image
Mosaic MK2
RHT, Size: 220x220, Spacing: 4 tiles, Train length: 1 to 6 cars
LHT, Size: 224x224, Spacing: 4 tiles, Train length: 1 to 6 cars
Image
There was an accident while designing the intersections which made this beautiful pattern that I'd like to share.
Mosaic ball.JPG
Re: 3 and 4 way intersections
They were probably made to be converted into a symmetrical cross. So they were "optimized" for ease of use. I don't believe the score is much different anyhow which is why I personally didn't change it but I could optimize them for tpm after I get the parts for my computer since it died...
They look cool! It might take me a bit to get around to testing (unless another gets to it first!) because of the aforementioned computer issues... :/
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hansjoachim
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Re: 3 and 4 way intersections
Great as always Hovedgade, I like those intersections. I tested them and got the same score as you. Thanks again for the formula, its in use with the TPM adjuster.Hovedgade wrote: ↑Fri May 27, 2022 7:09 pmI am back with more intersections.
I took some inspiration from my blitz roundabout but then i rotated it 45°and added frontend buffers. The first design does not use parallel buffers for the same direction and it scored slightly better than Windmill MK2. The second design has more parallel buffers than absolutely necessary which made it score about the same as Hurricane 1.2. The intersections does look somewhat similar to mosaic tiles and hence the reasoning behind the names.
Mosaic MK1
RHT, Size: 176x176, Spacing: 4 tiles, Train length: 1 to 6 cars
LHT, Size: 176x176, Spacing: 4 tiles, Train length: 1 to 6 carsimageMosaic MK2
RHT, Size: 220x220, Spacing: 4 tiles, Train length: 1 to 6 cars
LHT, Size: 224x224, Spacing: 4 tiles, Train length: 1 to 6 carsImage
There was an accident while designing the intersections which made this beautiful pattern that I'd like to share.Mosaic ball.JPG
Re: 3 and 4 way intersections
Abstract 4-lane 3-way
- Abstract in action.gif (432.77 KiB) Viewed 4637 times
Using Throughput tester v5.0.7
RHT/LHT (When did D become T? What does T stand for?)
Score: 112/110
Set1: 115/114
Set2: 110/107
I couldn't get it to be perfectly stable like with clockwork, so the score you get will be rather sensitive to signal spacing on the input lines, but the given score is what you should get if you don't bother with that and just rely on the provided entrance buffers. This junction was designed for a signal spacing of 60-ish tiles, or roughly 8 to 9 cars long.
Abstract construction guide
Resizing it is easier than it looks because it's actually made out of equilateral triangles, so you just need to resize four different connecting segments. Aside from that, there are the three places that cross in parallel instead of merge (red), three places that merge instead of cross (green), and three places where the outer lane splits and merges into an exit (blue).2-coloring
I thought of using constant combinators to find a good 2-coloring first, then building that 2-coloring with rails. As you can guess, my attempts at step 2 were rather unsuccessful until I realized the whole thing was made of triangles.Continuing my investigations into this synchronous behavior, I made a graph on desmos that calculates the expected TPM per lane for synchronous crossings across different buffer lengths, for a given train design and crossing length in meters. It includes the special cases where the train hits max speed, and when it's max speed from the start. The train stats used were found through a bit of research and a lot of experimentation. The units are all SI units.
-Thrust, (b)raking force, and friction are in Newtons.
-(d) is braking distance.
-Drag is in Newtons per (meters per second), or Newton-seconds per meter.
-t0 : the back of the train is against the rail signal behind it with the stop point at the chain signal in front.
-t1a: the time it takes for the stop point to reach the chain signal of the next crossing.
-t2a: the time it takes for the brakes to slow the train back to v0.
-switches to tb if the train would hit max speed before the stop point reaches the next crossing
-t1b: the time needed to reach max speed from v0.
-t2b: the time it takes after t1b for the train to be fully within the next buffer.
-t3b: the time it takes for the brakes to slow the train back to v0.
I'd love to say I know exactly how the formulas for distance/velocity/acceleration over time come about, but the truth is I found the velocity formula while experimenting with regressions in desmos and guessing at where the variables should go.
So, did this graph help me understand synchronous crossings?
... not really, no. I thought maybe using the buffer length with the most throughput would translate to being the most stable, but building abstract like that was just as unstable as the one used here. At this point I'm kind of out of ideas as to how to figure out what makes it stable.
Edit: Updated scores and added a rail signal to the LHT version.
Abstract RHT & LHT
Last edited by farcast on Wed Jun 01, 2022 9:34 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Efficient inefficient design.
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hansjoachim
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Re: 3 and 4 way intersections
Hey Farcast, what a cool intersection! I'll test it later. RHD is a term describing where the wheel is placed in a car so cars with RHD drives on the left side of the road. Since our use of RHD/LHD is completely wrong and opposite to real life, we decided to use a better term which is Right Hand Traffic and Left Hand Traffic. Which are precise and correct terms.
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FuryoftheStars
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Re: 3 and 4 way intersections
Shouldn't that be right side?
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hansjoachim
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Re: 3 and 4 way intersections
In my language we say translated rightdriving/leftdriving where rightdriving is driving on the right.
But in English right hand drive means the steering wheel is on the right side of the car. And cars with the steering wheel on the right side are made for driving on the left side of the road.
Source:
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictio ... hand-drive
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FuryoftheStars
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Re: 3 and 4 way intersections
Erm, ok. I'm a native English speaker and I've always understood RHD/LHD to be the side of the road you're driving on, not the steering wheel. Dunno, maybe I learned differently? I don't have anyone to compare with.hansjoachim wrote: ↑Wed Jun 01, 2022 2:01 pmIn my language we say translated rightdriving/leftdriving where rightdriving is driving on the right.
But in English right hand drive means the steering wheel is on the right side of the car. And cars with the steering wheel on the right side are made for driving on the left side of the road.
Source:
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictio ... hand-drive
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hansjoachim
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Re: 3 and 4 way intersections
On the old 4 way forum aaargha used RHD/LHD wrong and I think many learned it from there. I think especially us that are non native English speakers didn't question it. I didn't question it before I saw multiple times in the Factorio discord chat that we are using RHD/LHD wrong.FuryoftheStars wrote: ↑Wed Jun 01, 2022 2:04 pmErm, ok. I'm a native English speaker and I've always understood RHD/LHD to be the side of the road you're driving on, not the steering wheel. Dunno, maybe I learned differently? I don't have anyone to compare with.hansjoachim wrote: ↑Wed Jun 01, 2022 2:01 pmIn my language we say translated rightdriving/leftdriving where rightdriving is driving on the right.
But in English right hand drive means the steering wheel is on the right side of the car. And cars with the steering wheel on the right side are made for driving on the left side of the road.
Source:
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictio ... hand-drive
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FuryoftheStars
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Re: 3 and 4 way intersections
Huh, ok. I just got through doing some googling, too, and yeah, you're right. :/ Will probably take me a while to unlearn that....hansjoachim wrote: ↑Wed Jun 01, 2022 2:24 pmOn the old 4 way forum aaargha used RHD/LHD wrong and I think many learned it from there. I think especially us that are non native English speakers didn't question it. I didn't question it before I saw multiple times in the Factorio discord chat that we are using RHD/LHD wrong.
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Re: 3 and 4 way intersections
I think the terms can live side by side. Switching LHD with RHD would make chaos, so going to RHT and LHT is easier since it's only changing a letterFuryoftheStars wrote: ↑Wed Jun 01, 2022 2:30 pmHuh, ok. I just got through doing some googling, too, and yeah, you're right. :/ Will probably take me a while to unlearn that....hansjoachim wrote: ↑Wed Jun 01, 2022 2:24 pmOn the old 4 way forum aaargha used RHD/LHD wrong and I think many learned it from there. I think especially us that are non native English speakers didn't question it. I didn't question it before I saw multiple times in the Factorio discord chat that we are using RHD/LHD wrong.
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Re: 3 and 4 way intersections
Agreed, I get that. I'm just saying it's going to take me a while to unlearn (or relearn) what LHD and RHD really mean.hansjoachim wrote: ↑Wed Jun 01, 2022 3:12 pmI think the terms can live side by side. Switching LHD with RHD would make chaos, so going to RHT and LHT is easier since it's only changing a letterFuryoftheStars wrote: ↑Wed Jun 01, 2022 2:30 pmHuh, ok. I just got through doing some googling, too, and yeah, you're right. :/ Will probably take me a while to unlearn that....hansjoachim wrote: ↑Wed Jun 01, 2022 2:24 pmOn the old 4 way forum aaargha used RHD/LHD wrong and I think many learned it from there. I think especially us that are non native English speakers didn't question it. I didn't question it before I saw multiple times in the Factorio discord chat that we are using RHD/LHD wrong.
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Re: 3 and 4 way intersections
I don't think you need to, since people will use RHD for RHT in Factorio for years to come. I'm pretty sure no one will call "RHT" for LHD.FuryoftheStars wrote: ↑Wed Jun 01, 2022 3:16 pmAgreed, I get that. I'm just saying it's going to take me a while to unlearn (or relearn) what LHD and RHD really mean.hansjoachim wrote: ↑Wed Jun 01, 2022 3:12 pmI think the terms can live side by side. Switching LHD with RHD would make chaos, so going to RHT and LHT is easier since it's only changing a letterFuryoftheStars wrote: ↑Wed Jun 01, 2022 2:30 pmHuh, ok. I just got through doing some googling, too, and yeah, you're right. :/ Will probably take me a while to unlearn that....hansjoachim wrote: ↑Wed Jun 01, 2022 2:24 pmOn the old 4 way forum aaargha used RHD/LHD wrong and I think many learned it from there. I think especially us that are non native English speakers didn't question it. I didn't question it before I saw multiple times in the Factorio discord chat that we are using RHD/LHD wrong.
Re: 3 and 4 way intersections
I am also a native speaker but don't recall using RHD before Factorio. Talking about which side of the road we drive on wasn't a common subject for me. A user on discord had been suggesting RHT/LHT for years at that point so Hans brought it up. Hans, Kano, and I had a very long conversation about this and after reviewing the evidence, switching seemed simple and persuasive.FuryoftheStars wrote: ↑Wed Jun 01, 2022 2:04 pmErm, ok. I'm a native English speaker and I've always understood RHD/LHD to be the side of the road you're driving on, not the steering wheel. Dunno, maybe I learned differently? I don't have anyone to compare with.
Re: 3 and 4 way intersections
This is art !
I've used RHD = RHT = people drive on the right side of the road, exclusively in the context of factorio, without ever knowing i was doing a mistake and i've used it a lotAvona wrote: ↑Wed Jun 01, 2022 10:47 pmI am also a native speaker but don't recall using RHD before Factorio. Talking about which side of the road we drive on wasn't a common subject for me. A user on discord had been suggesting RHT/LHT for years at that point so Hans brought it up. Hans, Kano, and I had a very long conversation about this and after reviewing the evidence, switching seemed simple and persuasive.FuryoftheStars wrote: ↑Wed Jun 01, 2022 2:04 pmErm, ok. I'm a native English speaker and I've always understood RHD/LHD to be the side of the road you're driving on, not the steering wheel. Dunno, maybe I learned differently? I don't have anyone to compare with.
but i am convinced too now.-
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Re: 3 and 4 way intersections
The goal was to make the highest throughput 4-way unbuffered intersection. This intersection now holds the highscore for 4-way unbuffered intersections.
It looks larger than the others, but when Including the safe outputs it really isn't.
set 1: 52
Set 2: 41
Set 3 46
Average: 47
https://factoriobin.com/post/-UFOZDli
It looks larger than the others, but when Including the safe outputs it really isn't.
set 1: 52
Set 2: 41
Set 3 46
Average: 47
https://factoriobin.com/post/-UFOZDli
Re: 3 and 4 way intersections
I have tested a slightly modified version of my "Almost squareabout OCD" blueprint with testbench 5.1.1. It would be nice if you update the post with the new numbers. Also, Darkelder is my previous nickname. It should be ElderAxe as well.
Almost squareabout OCD Results
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Also designed another intersection which has slightly better throughput.
It would be great if you can add this to the list as well.
Name: Expanded Straights
Expanded Straights Results:
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Since these numbers are better than Christmas BP, I did a test with Christmas as well and its test results came up better than listed.
Christmas Results:
- almost-squareabout-ocd.png (2.08 MiB) Viewed 6318 times
Almost squareabout OCD Results
- almost-roundabout.png (508.98 KiB) Viewed 6318 times
Also designed another intersection which has slightly better throughput.
It would be great if you can add this to the list as well.
Name: Expanded Straights
- expanded-straights.png (2.01 MiB) Viewed 6318 times
Expanded Straights Results:
- run-2.png (503.42 KiB) Viewed 6318 times
- run-3.png (504.82 KiB) Viewed 6318 times
- run-4.png (530.98 KiB) Viewed 6318 times
Since these numbers are better than Christmas BP, I did a test with Christmas as well and its test results came up better than listed.
Christmas Results:
- christmas-1.png (507.98 KiB) Viewed 6318 times