[Experiment] Unloading 4 compressed blue belts per wagon.

Smart setups of railway stations, intelligent routing, solutions to complex train-routing problems.
Please provide - only if it makes sense of course - a blueprint of your creation.

Re: [Experiment] Unloading 4 compressed blue belts per wagon.

Postby zOldBulldog » Sun May 20, 2018 5:04 pm

disentius wrote:@zOldBulldog: DaveMcW's is brilliant, and the most efficient for 4 belts per wagon
[edit] typo

I tested DaveMcW's unloader, it does indeed unload nearly compressed 4 blue belts per wagon.

Trivial issue: The center chest (the one that goes from chest to chest to chest before being emptied by the 2 inserters into the belts) tends to empty faster than the rest, occasionally causing minimal interruptions (thus the 4 belts per wagon don't fully saturate). Even so, it is very close and good enough for me. IMHO an improved version would only be worth it if it remains about as compact as it is now, full saturation is probably not worth it if it requires a much larger footprint.

NOTE/EDIT: It requires an 8x8 balancer, or uneven ore consumption will eventually cause some wagons to empty faster while leaving others nearly full and thus causing trains to take much longer to unload... defeating the goal of fast unloads.

EDIT 2:. I found reports that even lane balancers are only a temporary solution. Eventually one of the chests would still empty and hold up the whole train. Circuit logic unload can help but it kills throughput. I have not found a good complete solution that preserves unload speed.


For those who need a way to supply trains fast enough, below is a screenshot. The blueprint and usage description is at factorioprints: https://factorioprints.com/view/-LCyNqfc04vWxjS8v8DG

unload.jpg
unload.jpg (273.34 KiB) Viewed 443 times
Last edited by zOldBulldog on Mon May 21, 2018 10:52 am, edited 2 times in total.
zOldBulldog
Fast Inserter
Fast Inserter
 
Posts: 249
Joined: Sat Mar 17, 2018 1:20 pm

Re: [Experiment] Unloading 4 compressed blue belts per wagon.

Postby Slayn25 » Sun May 20, 2018 9:31 pm

DaveMcW wrote:
disentius wrote:@Slayn:
- Not extensible beyond 4 wagons
- Not enough throughput chest->inserter->belt*

1. If your train is longer than 4 wagons, getting it in and out of the station before your 6 belts empty the buffer is a bigger problem.
2. Outputting to a splitter doubles inserter throughput.

Outputting to a splitter does not double inserter throughput because even though the inserter unloads to the splitter at double speed it would a belt, the arm swivel speed remains the same. Both factors would need to be cut in half for the throughput to double.
Slayn25
Fast Inserter
Fast Inserter
 
Posts: 120
Joined: Sun May 15, 2016 5:59 pm
Location: United States

Re: [Experiment] Unloading 4 compressed blue belts per wagon.

Postby Slayn25 » Mon May 21, 2018 6:47 am

No tunnel and not completely blueprintable but...
Image
Image
  • 6 Compressed belts/wagon
  • All original chests are drawn from equally and are lane balanced
  • Tileable
Last edited by Slayn25 on Mon May 21, 2018 8:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
Slayn25
Fast Inserter
Fast Inserter
 
Posts: 120
Joined: Sun May 15, 2016 5:59 pm
Location: United States

Re: [Experiment] Unloading 4 compressed blue belts per wagon.

Postby disentius » Mon May 21, 2018 8:39 am

Slayn25 wrote:
DaveMcW wrote:
disentius wrote:@Slayn:
- Not extensible beyond 4 wagons
- Not enough throughput chest->inserter->belt*

1. If your train is longer than 4 wagons, getting it in and out of the station before your 6 belts empty the buffer is a bigger problem.
2. Outputting to a splitter doubles inserter throughput.

Outputting to a splitter does not double inserter throughput because even though the inserter unloads to the splitter at double speed it would a belt, the arm swivel speed remains the same. Both factors would need to be cut in half for the throughput to double.


yeah.. i forgot one word there..[not] :oops:
User avatar
disentius
Inserter
Inserter
 
Posts: 43
Joined: Fri May 12, 2017 3:17 pm

Re: [Experiment] Unloading 4 compressed blue belts per wagon.

Postby mrvn » Tue May 22, 2018 8:29 am

DaveMcW wrote:
disentius wrote:@Slayn:
- Not extensible beyond 4 wagons
- Not enough throughput chest->inserter->belt*

1. If your train is longer than 4 wagons, getting it in and out of the station before your 6 belts empty the buffer is a bigger problem.
2. Outputting to a splitter doubles inserter throughput.


You can extend it to 6 wagons by repeating the first/last wagons pattern and you get the actually requested 4 belts per wagon.
mrvn
Smart Inserter
Smart Inserter
 
Posts: 2094
Joined: Mon Sep 05, 2016 9:10 am

Re: [Experiment] Unloading 4 compressed blue belts per wagon.

Postby Lav » Tue May 22, 2018 10:33 am

mrvn wrote:You can extend it to 6 wagons by repeating the first/last wagons pattern and you get the actually requested 4 belts per wagon.

Or just use a non-standard train design, like 1-2-1-2-1-2 or 2-4-2-4. Locos inside the train give plenty of space for construction.

Though every time I look at these designs, there's a nagging question at the back of my mind: wouldn't it be cheaper both resource and space-wise to simply build two parallel stations with less advanced unloading designs? :-)
User avatar
Lav
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
 
Posts: 349
Joined: Mon Mar 27, 2017 10:12 am
Location: Minsk, Belarus

Re: [Experiment] Unloading 4 compressed blue belts per wagon.

Postby mrvn » Tue May 22, 2018 12:51 pm

Lav wrote:
mrvn wrote:You can extend it to 6 wagons by repeating the first/last wagons pattern and you get the actually requested 4 belts per wagon.

Or just use a non-standard train design, like 1-2-1-2-1-2 or 2-4-2-4. Locos inside the train give plenty of space for construction.

Though every time I look at these designs, there's a nagging question at the back of my mind: wouldn't it be cheaper both resource and space-wise to simply build two parallel stations with less advanced unloading designs? :-)


As I mentioned I would build 4 (or however many you need to saturate the belts with some buffer) parallel stations, unload with just one row of inserter onto underground belts going across the stations. If you don't have Bobs adjustable inserters then you need to have 2 stations with belts going down and 2 stations with belts going up and then merge them to fill both lanes of each belt. That easily gives you 6 belts per wagon no matter how many stations you have in parallel. The number of stations just saturate the belt more.
mrvn
Smart Inserter
Smart Inserter
 
Posts: 2094
Joined: Mon Sep 05, 2016 9:10 am

Re: [Experiment] Unloading 4 compressed blue belts per wagon.

Postby Slayn25 » Sat May 26, 2018 3:52 am

mrvn wrote:
Lav wrote:
mrvn wrote:You can extend it to 6 wagons by repeating the first/last wagons pattern and you get the actually requested 4 belts per wagon.

Or just use a non-standard train design, like 1-2-1-2-1-2 or 2-4-2-4. Locos inside the train give plenty of space for construction.

Though every time I look at these designs, there's a nagging question at the back of my mind: wouldn't it be cheaper both resource and space-wise to simply build two parallel stations with less advanced unloading designs? :-)


As I mentioned I would build 4 (or however many you need to saturate the belts with some buffer) parallel stations, unload with just one row of inserter onto underground belts going across the stations. If you don't have Bobs adjustable inserters then you need to have 2 stations with belts going down and 2 stations with belts going up and then merge them to fill both lanes of each belt. That easily gives you 6 belts per wagon no matter how many stations you have in parallel. The number of stations just saturate the belt more.


Like this?
Image
Slayn25
Fast Inserter
Fast Inserter
 
Posts: 120
Joined: Sun May 15, 2016 5:59 pm
Location: United States

Re: [Experiment] Unloading 4 compressed blue belts per wagon.

Postby golfmiketango » Sat May 26, 2018 11:08 am

quyxkh wrote:

@mrvn: I think you forgot about stackers, and pace a typo (busy % is unload time / (unloadload time + interarrival) what you gave is exactly what I'm calculating.


No kidding... indeed it would seem this trick alone provides enough "juice" to complete Eradicator's assignment (or at least get really, really close) without any other noteworthy cleverness. Here's a proof-of-concept (perhaps with lots of superfluous complexity) with zero chests, zero combinators, and twelvethirteen inserters):
damnclose.png
proof of concept
damnclose.png (378.95 KiB) Viewed 299 times


blueprint string
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


The above just barely fails to fully compress the belts (and would certainly fail if we had to wait for the next train)... but it's damn close, probably clocking in at just a wee sliver of an item per second shy of the target. Squeezing in one more inserter->splitter somewhere would clearly supply the required throughput, assuming it isn't there already but somehow a victim of my crappy pseudo-balancer.
golfmiketango
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
 
Posts: 506
Joined: Fri Jan 29, 2016 2:48 am

Re: [Experiment] Unloading 4 compressed blue belts per wagon.

Postby quyxkh » Sat May 26, 2018 2:21 pm

You want four belt segments for buffering between the unload inserters and splitters, there's alread two there, just shift the balancer down two and it gets full compression.
quyxkh
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
 
Posts: 451
Joined: Sun May 08, 2016 9:01 am
Location: California

Re: [Experiment] Unloading 4 compressed blue belts per wagon.

Postby tzwaan » Sun May 27, 2018 3:20 am

Here's a version using the splitter mechanics I threw together. It's only using the regular amount of stack inserters and a single row of buffer chests.

Image

It's actually capable of doing slightly more than 4 full belts. 4.25 to be exact. To achieve that some extra wiggling around of the output belts is needed to actually make it neat compressed belts, that I can't be bothered to do:

Image

Blueprint string
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


Also, I made another design which is similar to this challenge, but in the other direction (no idea whether there's a thread for that) which consumes 4 full belts per wagon.

Image

It's interesting that using the inserters from the sideloaded underground belts is actually faster when picking up items as opposed to putting them down. (54 vs 56 ticks)

Speaking of which, the information on the wiki about inserter timings to belts are incorrect, and I'm in the process of fixing them soon. But just an FYI a stack inserter to a blue belt moves 12.857 items per second, not 12.20 as indicated on the wiki. The numbers on the wiki are outdated from 0.15

So 3 stack inserters to belts will move 38.57 items which is even closer to a fully compressed belt than before.
User avatar
tzwaan
Inserter
Inserter
 
Posts: 26
Joined: Thu Jul 07, 2016 12:12 am
Location: Amsterdam

Re: [Experiment] Unloading 4 compressed blue belts per wagon.

Postby mrvn » Mon May 28, 2018 10:03 am

Slayn25 wrote:
mrvn wrote:
Lav wrote:
mrvn wrote:You can extend it to 6 wagons by repeating the first/last wagons pattern and you get the actually requested 4 belts per wagon.

Or just use a non-standard train design, like 1-2-1-2-1-2 or 2-4-2-4. Locos inside the train give plenty of space for construction.

Though every time I look at these designs, there's a nagging question at the back of my mind: wouldn't it be cheaper both resource and space-wise to simply build two parallel stations with less advanced unloading designs? :-)


As I mentioned I would build 4 (or however many you need to saturate the belts with some buffer) parallel stations, unload with just one row of inserter onto underground belts going across the stations. If you don't have Bobs adjustable inserters then you need to have 2 stations with belts going down and 2 stations with belts going up and then merge them to fill both lanes of each belt. That easily gives you 6 belts per wagon no matter how many stations you have in parallel. The number of stations just saturate the belt more.


Like this?
Image

Pretty much. Except if you use more stations in parallel you can skip the chests. Means the stations on each side can be closer together.
mrvn
Smart Inserter
Smart Inserter
 
Posts: 2094
Joined: Mon Sep 05, 2016 9:10 am

Re: [Experiment] Unloading 4 compressed blue belts per wagon.

Postby CrispyOMNOMS » Fri Jun 01, 2018 11:19 pm

I use this design. Each full express belt takes items from three unloading buffer chests almost evenly, the chest that must output more has a larger buffer in the form of two extra chests. Having two of these mirrored takes items from all six unloading buffer chests on one side of the train to output two express belts.
The extra chests are stack limited so so that all the chests that output onto belt run out at almost the same time, I chose this because I don't like the gradual slow down as chests empty at stations.

There are three stack inserter placing items onto express belt at 12.2 items/s each, totalling 36.6 items/s.
And one "top-up" fast inserter that adds the extra 3.4 items/s needed to get full express belt compression.

Image

Inserter item/s stats from https://wiki.factorio.com/Inserters#Chest_to_belt
User avatar
CrispyOMNOMS
Burner Inserter
Burner Inserter
 
Posts: 6
Joined: Sat Aug 01, 2015 1:21 pm

Previous

Return to Railway Setups

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 4 guests