[Experiment] Unloading 4 compressed blue belts per wagon.

Smart setups of railway stations, intelligent routing, solutions to complex train-routing problems.
Please provide - only if it makes sense of course - a blueprint of your creation.
mrvn
Smart Inserter
Smart Inserter
Posts: 2484
Joined: Mon Sep 05, 2016 9:10 am

Re: [Experiment] Unloading 4 compressed blue belts per wagon.

Post by mrvn » Wed Mar 28, 2018 1:04 am

eradicator wrote:@mrvn:
This thread is not supposed to be a generic "good factory design" thread. It is supposed to focus on the task of unloading 2 belts per side for those who might be interested. In order to prevent further derailing (haha :P) of the topic towards "but this is pointless!" i have edited the opening post and added an FAQ section which also addresses your question.

Regarding your "use more trains" idea: That does not work. If you e.g. use two trains with one belt per side each you now need to design a station to be able to constantly have two trains parked simultaeneously. Because if one of the stations is empty you lose one belt of throughput. The only gain you get is a slight increase in the time you need between two trains due to increased buffer sizes. But as you now also need twice as many trains and twice as many inserters+chests it is doubtful that you would gain much in terms of ease-of-throughput while significantly complicating your station. This is contrary to the point of making fewer stations by using high-speed unloading.
You don't need to have 2 trains parked simultaeneously. Since you draw of half the amount of items per train the buffer chests will last twice as long. So you only need top have a train at each station 50% of the time. Or argued differently: You have the same number of belts overall so the same number of trains are needed overall. But now the trains go to twice the number of stations. So half as many trains per station per minute.

And if you have half the number of trains per minute you could use half the number of inserters and buffer chests to unload. But then you would be back where you started. The benefit of having twice the number of inserters and buffer chests to unload is that you unload twice as fast leaving more time for the trains to leave and the next to arrive without the belt going empty. Early on when you don't have maximum stack inserter bonus researched that can be a huge difference.

User avatar
eradicator
Smart Inserter
Smart Inserter
Posts: 2275
Joined: Tue Jul 12, 2016 9:03 am

Re: [Experiment] Unloading 4 compressed blue belts per wagon.

Post by eradicator » Wed Mar 28, 2018 2:51 pm

mrvn wrote:You don't need to have 2 trains parked simultaeneously. Since you draw of half the amount of items per train the buffer chests will last twice as long. So you only need top have a train at each station 50% of the time. Or argued differently: You have the same number of belts overall so the same number of trains are needed overall. But now the trains go to twice the number of stations. So half as many trains per station per minute.
Two parralel platforms with the same name are still the same station, and factorio signals/train pathing does not handle simultaenous entry situations very well with stackers. So yea, the trains don't need to be there exactly at the same time, but given the tight schedule it would be preferrable.
mrvn wrote:And if you have half the number of trains per minute you could use half the number of inserters and buffer chests to unload.
The number of trains does not change regardless of the number of unloading platforms you have. And reducing the number of inserters/buffer chests will make both the unloading process slower and the duration the buffer lasts shorter, so you'd end up worse.
mrvn wrote:Early on when you don't have maximum stack inserter bonus researched that can be a huge difference.
Completely off topic.

How about instead of lamenting about how multi-station is the better solution you actually post a design that shows this? With proper numbers on train timings/buffer capacity etc.

mrvn
Smart Inserter
Smart Inserter
Posts: 2484
Joined: Mon Sep 05, 2016 9:10 am

Re: [Experiment] Unloading 4 compressed blue belts per wagon.

Post by mrvn » Wed Mar 28, 2018 5:46 pm

eradicator wrote:
mrvn wrote:You don't need to have 2 trains parked simultaeneously. Since you draw of half the amount of items per train the buffer chests will last twice as long. So you only need top have a train at each station 50% of the time. Or argued differently: You have the same number of belts overall so the same number of trains are needed overall. But now the trains go to twice the number of stations. So half as many trains per station per minute.
Two parralel platforms with the same name are still the same station, and factorio signals/train pathing does not handle simultaenous entry situations very well with stackers. So yea, the trains don't need to be there exactly at the same time, but given the tight schedule it would be preferrable.
I think you made my point. The whole suggestion for using 2 stations was to loosen the schedule. More inserters doing the unloading when both stations are occupied, more buffer space, less draw on each buffer chest making them last longer. All of that allows more time for trains arriving or leaving without the belts running empty. If you think factorio won't figure out how to send trains from a stacker to two stations in an orderly fashion you could use circuit logic to control the signals and timing so one train goes from the stacker to the empty station exactly when the other station is half unloaded. That way you never have 2 trains moving at the same time and only one choice of route to drive. You don't even have to name the stations the same way. Personally I just do and let factorio sort it out. Works out well for me.

If you don't like the suggestion then don't use it.

Demosthenex
Long Handed Inserter
Long Handed Inserter
Posts: 94
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2016 3:51 pm

Re: [Experiment] Unloading 4 compressed blue belts per wagon.

Post by Demosthenex » Thu Apr 26, 2018 2:22 pm

Has anyone made designs for loading as many blue belts as possible into a wagon? I have a simple loading taking in 6 blue belts per wagon, but they clearly are not consumed fast enough.

https://imgur.com/b87gaTM

User avatar
eradicator
Smart Inserter
Smart Inserter
Posts: 2275
Joined: Tue Jul 12, 2016 9:03 am

Re: [Experiment] Unloading 4 compressed blue belts per wagon.

Post by eradicator » Thu Apr 26, 2018 2:36 pm

Demosthenex wrote:Has anyone made designs for loading as many blue belts as possible into a wagon? I have a simple loading taking in 6 blue belts per wagon, but they clearly are not consumed fast enough.
https://imgur.com/b87gaTM
You'd need to have to squeeze in 10 inserters per wagon side. Not an easy task. Feel free to look at the previous designs for inspiration and be sure to post your results.

mrvn
Smart Inserter
Smart Inserter
Posts: 2484
Joined: Mon Sep 05, 2016 9:10 am

Re: [Experiment] Unloading 4 compressed blue belts per wagon.

Post by mrvn » Thu Apr 26, 2018 2:39 pm

Demosthenex wrote:Has anyone made designs for loading as many blue belts as possible into a wagon? I have a simple loading taking in 6 blue belts per wagon, but they clearly are not consumed fast enough.

https://imgur.com/b87gaTM
You need to load the belts into chests using multiple inserters. Then you can use inserters to transfere chest to chest till you have them compressed into a line of 6 chests. Then load that into the train car. Will be huge.

But why bother? Just put down a second train stations in parallel and continue your belts. If that still doesn't consume the blue belt add a third.

Demosthenex
Long Handed Inserter
Long Handed Inserter
Posts: 94
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2016 3:51 pm

Re: [Experiment] Unloading 4 compressed blue belts per wagon.

Post by Demosthenex » Thu Apr 26, 2018 2:43 pm

eradicator wrote:
Demosthenex wrote:Has anyone made designs for loading as many blue belts as possible into a wagon? I have a simple loading taking in 6 blue belts per wagon, but they clearly are not consumed fast enough.
https://imgur.com/b87gaTM
You'd need to have to squeeze in 10 inserters per wagon side. Not an easy task. Feel free to look at the previous designs for inspiration and be sure to post your results.
I've keenly looked over the designs. I was thinking I just missed that thread.

Demosthenex
Long Handed Inserter
Long Handed Inserter
Posts: 94
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2016 3:51 pm

Re: [Experiment] Unloading 4 compressed blue belts per wagon.

Post by Demosthenex » Thu Apr 26, 2018 2:44 pm

mrvn wrote:Just put down a second train stations in parallel and continue your belts. If that still doesn't consume the blue belt add a third.
Space is at a premium. I've done lines of stations before in other situations, unfortunately here I have only the one.

Too bad wagons fit so awkwardly together or I'd chain them together to load it.

Parq
Manual Inserter
Manual Inserter
Posts: 3
Joined: Thu Apr 26, 2018 2:56 pm

Re: [Experiment] Unloading 4 compressed blue belts per wagon.

Post by Parq » Thu Apr 26, 2018 3:08 pm

I've been playing this game for a while but just started building a bit more efficiently and such. Here's my try for two full blue belts. I admit that this build doesnt have 6 additional chests but i dont see the problem of that yet. Neither is it symmetrical but who cares about looks anyways, riiiight?
Whats your opinion about this?
2018-04-26 (2).png
2018-04-26 (2).png (413 KiB) Viewed 682 times
EDIT:

Been there, done that - i came to antoher idea that might work quite better and wouldnt even be that complicated. Or am i missing the point somewhere?
2018-04-26 (8).png
2018-04-26 (8).png (606.98 KiB) Viewed 681 times

Jap2.0
Smart Inserter
Smart Inserter
Posts: 1670
Joined: Tue Jun 20, 2017 12:02 am

Re: [Experiment] Unloading 4 compressed blue belts per wagon.

Post by Jap2.0 » Thu Apr 26, 2018 7:16 pm

Parq wrote:I've been playing this game for a while but just started building a bit more efficiently and such. Here's my try for two full blue belts. I admit that this build doesnt have 6 additional chests but i dont see the problem of that yet. Neither is it symmetrical but who cares about looks anyways, riiiight?
Whats your opinion about this?
2018-04-26 (2).png
EDIT:

Been there, done that - i came to antoher idea that might work quite better and wouldnt even be that complicated. Or am i missing the point somewhere?
2018-04-26 (8).png
No, your first was better, it split more evenly between the lanes of the belt.
There are 10 types of people: those who get this joke and those who don't.

Parq
Manual Inserter
Manual Inserter
Posts: 3
Joined: Thu Apr 26, 2018 2:56 pm

Re: [Experiment] Unloading 4 compressed blue belts per wagon.

Post by Parq » Thu Apr 26, 2018 7:37 pm

Jap2.0 wrote:
Parq wrote:I've been playing this game for a while but just started building a bit more efficiently and such. Here's my try for two full blue belts. I admit that this build doesnt have 6 additional chests but i dont see the problem of that yet. Neither is it symmetrical but who cares about looks anyways, riiiight?
Whats your opinion about this?
2018-04-26 (2).png
EDIT:

Been there, done that - i came to antoher idea that might work quite better and wouldnt even be that complicated. Or am i missing the point somewhere?
2018-04-26 (8).png
No, your first was better, it split more evenly between the lanes of the belt.
How's that? It's two Inserters per Beltside. Or do you mean something else?

Jap2.0
Smart Inserter
Smart Inserter
Posts: 1670
Joined: Tue Jun 20, 2017 12:02 am

Re: [Experiment] Unloading 4 compressed blue belts per wagon.

Post by Jap2.0 » Thu Apr 26, 2018 10:12 pm

Parq wrote:
Jap2.0 wrote:
Parq wrote:I've been playing this game for a while but just started building a bit more efficiently and such. Here's my try for two full blue belts. I admit that this build doesnt have 6 additional chests but i dont see the problem of that yet. Neither is it symmetrical but who cares about looks anyways, riiiight?
Whats your opinion about this?
2018-04-26 (2).png
EDIT:

Been there, done that - i came to antoher idea that might work quite better and wouldnt even be that complicated. Or am i missing the point somewhere?
2018-04-26 (8).png
No, your first was better, it split more evenly between the lanes of the belt.
How's that? It's two Inserters per Beltside. Or do you mean something else?
You first one had 1/3 of the output from the train on each side, and the remaining third split between the sides. Your second had 2/3 on one side, and the remaining third on the other side.
There are 10 types of people: those who get this joke and those who don't.

Parq
Manual Inserter
Manual Inserter
Posts: 3
Joined: Thu Apr 26, 2018 2:56 pm

Re: [Experiment] Unloading 4 compressed blue belts per wagon.

Post by Parq » Thu Apr 26, 2018 10:32 pm

Jap2.0 wrote:
Parq wrote:
Jap2.0 wrote:
Parq wrote:I've been playing this game for a while but just started building a bit more efficiently and such. Here's my try for two full blue belts. I admit that this build doesnt have 6 additional chests but i dont see the problem of that yet. Neither is it symmetrical but who cares about looks anyways, riiiight?
Whats your opinion about this?
2018-04-26 (2).png
EDIT:

Been there, done that - i came to antoher idea that might work quite better and wouldnt even be that complicated. Or am i missing the point somewhere?
2018-04-26 (8).png
No, your first was better, it split more evenly between the lanes of the belt.
How's that? It's two Inserters per Beltside. Or do you mean something else?
You first one had 1/3 of the output from the train on each side, and the remaining third split between the sides. Your second had 2/3 on one side, and the remaining third on the other side.
Ahh i see it now. Would have been too easy :(

mrvn
Smart Inserter
Smart Inserter
Posts: 2484
Joined: Mon Sep 05, 2016 9:10 am

Re: [Experiment] Unloading 4 compressed blue belts per wagon.

Post by mrvn » Mon Apr 30, 2018 9:52 am

It also looks like it would unbalance the buffer chests. 1/3rd of the chests are emptied by 2 inserters while the others are empties by one. The later have priority sou it could balance out. Does it or does the two inserter chest run out first?

User avatar
disentius
Long Handed Inserter
Long Handed Inserter
Posts: 99
Joined: Fri May 12, 2017 3:17 pm

Re: [Experiment] Unloading 4 compressed blue belts per wagon.

Post by disentius » Tue May 01, 2018 5:47 pm

Demosthenex wrote:
eradicator wrote:
Demosthenex wrote:Has anyone made designs for loading as many blue belts as possible into a wagon? I have a simple loading taking in 6 blue belts per wagon, but they clearly are not consumed fast enough.
https://imgur.com/b87gaTM
You'd need to have to squeeze in 10 inserters per wagon side. Not an easy task. Feel free to look at the previous designs for inspiration and be sure to post your results.
I've keenly looked over the designs. I was thinking I just missed that thread.

@Demosthenex:

Blue belt can deliver 40items/second. A fully upgraded stack inserter can move about 12 i/s belt -> chest
12 inserters per wagon... -> (144 i/s)/(40 i/s) => 3.6 blue belts per wagon max load speed. Buffer chests help because chest -> wagon speed is almost 28 i/s

User avatar
eradicator
Smart Inserter
Smart Inserter
Posts: 2275
Joined: Tue Jul 12, 2016 9:03 am

Re: [Experiment] Unloading 4 compressed blue belts per wagon.

Post by eradicator » Wed May 02, 2018 12:08 am

disentius wrote: Blue belt can deliver 40items/second. A fully upgraded stack inserter can move about 12 i/s belt -> chest
12 inserters per wagon... -> (144 i/s)/(40 i/s) => 3.6 blue belts per wagon max load speed. Buffer chests help because chest -> wagon speed is almost 28 i/s
12 * 27.7 / 40 = 8.31 blue belts per wagon if you're loading the wagon from chests, not from belts directly, which is what this whole thread is about. Check my opening post for further details.

quyxkh
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 537
Joined: Sun May 08, 2016 9:01 am

Re: [Experiment] Unloading 4 compressed blue belts per wagon.

Post by quyxkh » Wed May 02, 2018 1:48 am

Yup. By amping up Teraka's trick you can unload to belts at full speed, too:
snap@T1168348=7040x2000-63.5-45.25,z2.jpg
snap@T1168348=7040x2000-63.5-45.25,z2.jpg (705.57 KiB) Viewed 565 times
For more than two wagons you have to back off five chests per wagon to get it to tile, it's still almost seven blue belts per wagon.

(edit: whoops, missed a lane balancer, pic+save updated)
Attachments
max-rate unload.zip
(1.12 MiB) Downloaded 13 times

User avatar
eradicator
Smart Inserter
Smart Inserter
Posts: 2275
Joined: Tue Jul 12, 2016 9:03 am

Re: [Experiment] Unloading 4 compressed blue belts per wagon.

Post by eradicator » Wed May 02, 2018 8:49 am

@quyxkh:
There seems to be some optimization potential left in that. Also what does sideloading onto a splitter achieve there? Looks redundant to me. Besides you only gain 6.1 belts because the limit is then the belt-loading inserters and not the chest ones.

wagon-2-chest = 27.7
2* chest-to-belt = 24.4

24.4 * 10 / 40 = 6.1

Aeternus
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 803
Joined: Wed Mar 29, 2017 2:10 am

Re: [Challenge?] Unloading 4 compressed blue belts per wagon.

Post by Aeternus » Wed May 02, 2018 9:46 am

timeshifter wrote:So it's worth noting that just doing a dumb dump comes *really* close...

Image
Shift the splitters 1 piece to the right and add 3 more blue belt sections to fill the empty space. These act as minibuffers past the inserters and will cause compression to succeed. Add one more splitter to balance the exit lanes, that'll allow all 3 feeder belts to compress both exit belts. However, the chest unloading will not be balanced, there will be a bias towards taking from the center chests (can be remedied by taking priority input from the outside lanes). This method is only good if you keep flooding the station with trains.
For one wagon to 4 belts you thus just unload this way on both sides. Simple works :)
Last edited by Aeternus on Wed May 02, 2018 1:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
disentius
Long Handed Inserter
Long Handed Inserter
Posts: 99
Joined: Fri May 12, 2017 3:17 pm

Re: [Experiment] Unloading 4 compressed blue belts per wagon.

Post by disentius » Wed May 02, 2018 1:14 pm

eradicator wrote:
disentius wrote: Blue belt can deliver 40items/second. A fully upgraded stack inserter can move about 12 i/s belt -> chest
12 inserters per wagon... -> (144 i/s)/(40 i/s) => 3.6 blue belts per wagon max load speed. Buffer chests help because chest -> wagon speed is almost 28 i/s
12 * 27.7 / 40 = 8.31 blue belts per wagon if you're loading the wagon from chests, not from belts directly, which is what this whole thread is about. Check my opening post for further details.

Demo talks about loading, not unloading, and mentions a restricted space to build.
And you are right. Theory dictates we could squeeze a bit more than 8 belts in. will be BIG :)

Post Reply

Return to “Railway Setups”