Industrial Revolution 2 discussion

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Fuzzician
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Re: Industrial Revolution 2 discussion

Post by Fuzzician »

The idea behind smelting molten metal is really cool (loved how Angel's did it), but for it to be relevant, it has to offer something over the Electric Furnace. Just being faster doesn't cut it, when you have to jump some hoops to get it set up. Washing already offers massive productivity bonuses, so more of that wouldn't help.

I am not sure what would do it. On a side note, does anyone use the other foundries? Ones to make gears etc...?

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Re: Industrial Revolution 2 discussion

Post by CF_coae »

does anyone know how i can automate the uranium fuel cell supply of the fission reactor from spidertron?
I just get the warning that the manager doesn't know which fuel to use if it's only one kind

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Re: Industrial Revolution 2 discussion

Post by pyrignis »

Is it me or have flame-thrower suddenly started damaging walls? was it always the case?

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Re: Industrial Revolution 2 discussion

Post by SnelleSjonnie »

I like the diamond-based miners, but they are not big enough to my taste.

I also enjoy the nostalgia feeling of TA_miners mod and of course how overpowered these miners are. Ideal for direct insertion into trains, or to finish depleting an ore patch.

Currently both those mods are incompatible so I am trying to come up with a good patch set of recipe definitions, which also involve diamonds and more generally resonate with the IR2 technology style and cost philosophy. I think the miners must be very expensive to craft and somehow require diamonds.

Help and suggestions are welcome, if anyone is also interested! See my latest recipe suggestions here.

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Stringweasel
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Re: Industrial Revolution 2 discussion

Post by Stringweasel »

Deadlock989 wrote:
Mon Jan 11, 2021 5:17 pm
I'd definitely use something like that, if only for temporarily "hiding" characters by giving them completely transparent sprites as "armour", which would avoid the need for wild shenanigans involving invisible indestructible cars and having to track and clean them up again under multiple contingencies.
Hello Deadlock! I'm busy putting together an Alt-F4 article about interesting modding hacks by various mod authors, and I remembered reading this interesting sentence some time ago on 92112. Would you like to expand on it - like saying where it's used - so that I can add it to the article? I would love to have you featured as well. You can reply here, DM me on the forums, or message me on Discord at stringweasel 0691. Sorry for highjacking this thread, there's not many places that I can get in contact with you. :)

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Deadlock989
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Re: Industrial Revolution 2 discussion

Post by Deadlock989 »

Stringweasel wrote:
Thu Oct 14, 2021 11:01 am
Hello Deadlock! I'm busy putting together an Alt-F4 article about interesting modding hacks by various mod authors, and I remembered reading this interesting sentence some time ago on 92112. Would you like to expand on it - like saying where it's used - so that I can add it to the article?
The invisible car trick is used in IR2's "transmat" sequence.



The problem to solve was that players (and their attached character) can be teleported between surfaces, and vehicles can be teleported between surfaces, but characters without an attached player cannot be teleported between surfaces, and during a cutscene the player isn't attached to a character. The sequence I wanted needed the character to be invisible some but not all of the time, and the least troublesome way of achieving it turned out to be making an invisible non-colliding car and putting them inside it and then teleporting that to a "limbo" surface temporarily while the cutscene POV is moving from site to site. There are various other hacky options that don't involve a custom spriteless vehicle but some of them had very nasty side effects (e.g. temporarily teleporting the character to a very distant location on the same surface can play absolute OS-killing havoc with the biter pathfinder if the teleported character happens to be under attack) and it also had to be robust against people disconnecting during the sequence in multiplayer which made destructive cloning too much of a puzzle (you can't teleport a disconnected character to another surface but you can clone the character on another surface and then destroy the original, which is philosophically interesting but turned out to be very annoying to "clean up" if the cutscene sequence was interrupted by a disconnection or interference from some other mod). There are probably better ways of tackling it but like a lot of Factorio modding it's a case of fumbling in the dark until you find something that works.
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Re: Industrial Revolution 2 discussion

Post by Stringweasel »

Deadlock989 wrote:
Fri Oct 15, 2021 6:38 pm
The invisible car trick is used in IR2's "transmat" sequence...
That's perfect, and the video clip is a great addition. Thanks a lot!

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Re: Industrial Revolution 2 discussion

Post by tuhe »

I am trying IR2 as my first experience with a mod in factorio. So far I only have positive things to say about this mod, and just got done with automating red science!

I am wondering what the role of the one-way flow valves for steam/water and the small steam collector tank is. The valves say they prevent backflow, but I don't know how/when that occurs. Does anyone know? Are they relevant when you want to pipe steam over a long stretch, or when having multiple boilers in the steam network?

If there is a help-feature or similar for these kind of things I'd love to know.

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Deadlock989
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Re: Industrial Revolution 2 discussion

Post by Deadlock989 »

tuhe wrote:
Wed Nov 17, 2021 2:04 pm
I am wondering what the role of the one-way flow valves for steam/water and the small steam collector tank is. The valves say they prevent backflow, but I don't know how/when that occurs. Does anyone know? Are they relevant when you want to pipe steam over a long stretch, or when having multiple boilers in the steam network?
Valves in general were put in in case you want to reduce "slosh" - the fluid system in Factorio is prone to equalising / oscillating back and forth if you can't maintain "pressure". In situations where you have a lot of long pipes - IR2 steam being a potential case - it is sometimes nice to be able to compartmentalise and guarantee that machine group B doesn't suddenly have all its steam pipes emptied because machine group A earlier on is suddenly in demand. But in fact it doesn't really have a big effect on the mechanics in your typical game. Mostly, the steam valves and buffer tank are only there because I had the models for the higher tier versions and it was easy to retexture them. They might be more useful if you are playing on some kind of map where resources are very scarce and your supply of water and combustibles are erratic and you want to build up a buffer just in case.
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Re: Industrial Revolution 2 discussion

Post by tuhe »

Deadlock989 wrote:
Thu Nov 18, 2021 9:00 pm
Valves in general were put in in case you want to reduce "slosh" - the fluid system in Factorio is prone to equalising / oscillating back and forth if you can't maintain "pressure". In situations where you have a lot of long pipes - IR2 steam being a potential case - it is sometimes nice to be able to compartmentalise and guarantee that machine group B doesn't suddenly have all its steam pipes emptied because machine group A earlier on is suddenly in demand. But in fact it doesn't really have a big effect on the mechanics in your typical game. Mostly, the steam valves and buffer tank are only there because I had the models for the higher tier versions and it was easy to retexture them. They might be more useful if you are playing on some kind of map where resources are very scarce and your supply of water and combustibles are erratic and you want to build up a buffer just in case.
Hi Deadlock989!

Thank you for your answer, that clears things up.

I just wanted to say a couple of things about your mod:

I think it is absolutely AMAZING!. I am a newbie (launched one rocket in vanilla after nearly 50 hours) and didn't really have high expectations for the mods, but my playthrough of IR2 so far (I just unlocked electricity and am trying to secure an iron output) absolutely exceeds any expectations I had hoped for. I think the mod has been better than the base game in terms of balance and design choices! (it goes without saying that the visuals and sounds are better too!).

I feel (I am open to the idea it is my newbie style of play :-) ) that the mod really wants you to build a pasta-starter-base to get to electricity, both because hand-crafting seems so punishing that automating intermediates seems necessary, and because you need to craft so many different things that inserting them directly would mean you had too many buildings. It feels a lot more like what I think early-game factorio *should* be: Each little thing you automate helps speed you up a bit, and will help you automate the next thing using belts and splitters.
For instance, just getting a few underground pipes was a pain in the beginning, so the first time you automate them feels more rewarding.
I could be wrong, but it also feels like progress is more restricted by building than by science/research. I have 4 labs and I feel like it is building/crafting that imposes restrictions. I think this is much better since it is easier to relate to (and incrementally effect) than the idea that you need x number of colored science to go into a building.

Starting with bots is IMO also really, really great with this mod, as it helps a lot with putting down steam infrastructure around buildings. I would never have considered this because I associate bots with a late-game tech, but it makes a ton of sense.

SE is often brought up as an inspiration for the expansion pack, but I really hope that they look at IR2 for the early space game. I think in particular the combination of a new infrastructure complication like steam, several new intermediates, slow hand-crafting, and generally slower play-style would be a great way to mix up early space exploration.

If so-called constructive feedback is helpful, these are the two things I have been thinking about so far:

1) I sometimes have a problem visually distinguishing between copper and bronze. This is especially a problem on belts, where the ingots look the same (at least when they are not on the same screen). You should take into account I have less than perfect eyesight and a not too great laptop screen :-).

2) I think a way to attract this-is-my-second-playthrough newbies who are confused about the choices of mods would be to have small objectives pop up like in the tutorial. I'd use these to introduce concepts that are new compared to vanilla, like setting up the first steam-based automation, when to build the first glass-smelter, when to build the first ore-crusher, and so on so that the player at all times have a single thing to focus on if in doubt they can accomplish in about an hour. For instance, I am not sure if I should build my first bronze furnace before or after I get iron ore, and whether I should crush coal like I crush copper ore and feed it to my stone furnace. If I knew that if I followed the pop-ups I was on the right track that would reduce this uncertainty.

I think more experienced players understand you just select some tech and build it, but I know from myself I have a hard time deciding between them (and worry I select "the wrong one"), and this often feels like a greater challenge than accomplishing the objectives themselves. Naturally, I am assuming that writing these tips is fairly easy and can be done using simple rules. When done, I would call this a campaign and use it for advertising. My main concern in picking a mod was that it offered something new fairly early-ish, but also that it was not too hard to get into.

I hope you have a great weekend; I can't wait to get electricity! :-).

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Re: Industrial Revolution 2 discussion

Post by yohannc »

Hi,

Just want to say thank you Deadlock for your mod (i played 800hours of factorio before starting playing your mod).
Graphics are so good that i am exited to build new building each time and i like staring at them to see each details.
Sounds are good too (even if one specific sound per machine would be even better, but as it is currently i would say it's better than the base game :) )
If one day there is a factorio 2, they should propose you an offer !

Bye and thank you again !

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Re: Industrial Revolution 2 discussion

Post by lilred2 »

+1 for IR2 being my favorite mod ever. It's gorgeous, fun, balanced. I can't imagine how much work it must have been.

I'm wondering if anyone here knows off the top of their head if air filters and forestries can be used to slow down evolution factor growth, for example by putting an air filter in the same chunk as a cluster of mining drills.

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Re: Industrial Revolution 2 discussion

Post by Mehve »

To my knowledge, no. Evolution due to pollution is based on produced pollution, even if the pollution never actually reaches any biters. I think I remember seeing it explained that this is hard-coded into the game, modded or not.

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Re: Industrial Revolution 2 discussion

Post by redis »

Here is an odd bug with Prod modules...

First of it is possible to put Prod modules into Electric furnace at all times... However, this allows to accidentally bypass the restriction of Prod modules for some smelting recipes. The way it is working I am not even sure if it is the issue of not allowing Prod modules for some furnaces recipes or it is the fact you can insert them into furnaces. Unlike assemblers you are not required to set a recipe which obviously allows to insert any modules. I am not sure what the intention of the author was. It looks like it is impossible to prevent inserting Prod modules into furnaces, but at the same time Deadlock wants some restrictions in place for some smelting recipes.

I am trying to build a megabase but really scratching my head what to do with this problem.

Btw I am not sure where to report issues since Github repos are archived/locked for this purpose.

Edit: The particular recipe I am looking at is "Glass smelting". Looks pretty much everything else can use Prod modules in electric furnaces. So the bug seems to be the recipe should allow it.

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Re: Industrial Revolution 2 discussion

Post by ickputzdirwech »

Maybe it is even worth reporting it to the devs? I mean what you are describing doesn’t appear in vanilla, but I think it would be nearly impossible for Deadlock to fix the issue if he doesn’t change which recipes can use productivity modules and which can’t.
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Re: Industrial Revolution 2 discussion

Post by redis »

In vanilla furnaces allow prod (any) modules so this is not an issue. The issue here is with the mod trying to disallow Prod modules for some recipes (in furnaces), which is not really possible to do completely. You are able to insert Prod modules before it starts smelting (i.e machine is clean). Once it is smelting and there is glass (for example)and you try to remove Prod modules then you won't be able to put them back unless you clear the machine. This can not be intended behavior because such weirdly easy loophole exists to use Prods. I actually only noticed this because Helmod showed me Prod modules as unavailable for glass, but then I noticed that I somehow accidentally put Prods into the machine and it was all working.

I saw in the changelog Deadlock enabled most of Prod modules in furnaces last summer, but for some reason left a few recipes (glass, bronze alloy). Prod modules shine (could become OP) at higher tier machines, but not at the low levels. So no idea what the point is here. This idea also seems against how factorio engine works with furnaces. Such recipes should either use in game assembler entities or simply do not put restrictions selectively and get onboard with KISS principle.

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Deadlock989
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Re: Industrial Revolution 2 discussion

Post by Deadlock989 »

In vanilla Factorio there are only four furnace recipes and it makes sense for those particular recipes to have productivity enabled. A modded scenario can have many, many more furnace recipes (as well as other new machines and processes which have to use the furnace prototype) and it may not make sense for specific ones to have productivity enabled. For me it's neither interesting nor important that the game engine allows you to put a productivity module into a furnace and then feed it with a non-productivity recipe ingredient - the module stays in the machine but it has absolutely no effect on the machine's operation for that specific recipe. IR1 attempted to use only manual recipe selection ("crafting machine" style) for furnace recipes - it had advantages such as preventing this kind of thing, but also severe disadvantages, so I reworked all smelting and alloying for IR2 so that smart furnace setups were possible again.

Vanilla Factorio also does not have any looping recipe chains with the exception of nuclear fuel processing, i.e. there is no dedicated material-agnostic method of recycling or reclamation. In contrast, IR2 was built on a material/component system and has the scrapping mechanic, which I personally prefer over the alternative approach of endless Russian doll recipes where every widget is made of eight doohickies which are each made of eight tranklements. Making all the IR2 furnace recipes automatically boosted by production bonuses would create all kinds of broken positive feedback loops where you could infinitely scrap and resmelt to make metal out of nothing, so it has to be hand-curated with a highly conservative approach. Minor omissions are therefore inevitable.

I'd also point out that IR2's entire economy is based on an "ore doubling" (actually 225%) processing chain which already outclasses all but the most tedious beacon setups. You can then stack productivity modules and beacons on top of the IR2 ore doubling and the massive mining productivity research bonuses anyway, so I don't really think there are any serious issues with lack of production-boosting options. In the case of glass, you already get massive amounts of silica from mining mere stone, as well as extra gravel and silica from ore refining byproducts, and it only needs an additional dribble of tin ore from a single outpost to launch a thousand rockets. Glass also has double the plate output compared to other basic components.

Alloys from alloy mixes were intentionally left out of productivity bonuses because the pure metals used to make the alloy mix were themselves already amenable to production boosts and I deliberately wanted to avoid double-dipping of that kind. That was my choice; anyone is free to make their own patch mod if they don't like any particular decision I took.

With hindsight, I should have just removed prod modules from the scenario completely, I never liked them or beacons anyway, either as a player or a modder - productivity is fine in the context of the vanilla scenario with its limited recipe palette but the API for extending and restricting the use of modules is pretty barebones and a bit frustrating.

I worked on the mod and supported it on and off for 3.5 years as well as contributing a bunch of other stuff. There weren't any very important bug reports between July and December 2021 except stuff I found myself which was mostly cosmetic. My support for the mod came to a close just last week, at the end of 2021 - I'm spending my leisure time in other ways these days and have no plans to update the mod for future Factorio expansions.
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Re: Industrial Revolution 2 discussion

Post by redis »

Deadlock989 wrote:
Mon Jan 03, 2022 4:12 pm
In vanilla Factorio there are only four furnace recipes and it makes sense for those particular recipes to have productivity enabled. A modded scenario can have many, many more furnace recipes (as well as other new machines and processes which have to use the furnace prototype) and it may not make sense for specific ones to have productivity enabled. For me it's neither interesting nor important that the game engine allows you to put a productivity module into a furnace and then feed it with a non-productivity recipe ingredient - the module stays in the machine but it has absolutely no effect on the machine's operation for that specific recipe. IR1 attempted to use only manual recipe selection ("crafting machine" style) for furnace recipes - it had advantages such as preventing this kind of thing, but also severe disadvantages, so I reworked all smelting and alloying for IR2 so that smart furnace setups were possible again.

Vanilla Factorio also does not have any looping recipe chains with the exception of nuclear fuel processing, i.e. there is no dedicated material-agnostic method of recycling or reclamation. In contrast, IR2 was built on a material/component system and has the scrapping mechanic, which I personally prefer over the alternative approach of endless Russian doll recipes where every widget is made of eight doohickies which are each made of eight tranklements. Making all the IR2 furnace recipes automatically boosted by production bonuses would create all kinds of broken positive feedback loops where you could infinitely scrap and resmelt to make metal out of nothing, so it has to be hand-curated with a highly conservative approach. Minor omissions are therefore inevitable.

I'd also point out that IR2's entire economy is based on an "ore doubling" (actually 225%) processing chain which already outclasses all but the most tedious beacon setups. You can then stack productivity modules and beacons on top of the IR2 ore doubling and the massive mining productivity research bonuses anyway, so I don't really think there are any serious issues with lack of production-boosting options. In the case of glass, you already get massive amounts of silica from mining mere stone, as well as extra gravel and silica from ore refining byproducts, and it only needs an additional dribble of tin ore from a single outpost to launch a thousand rockets. Glass also has double the plate output compared to other basic components.

Alloys from alloy mixes were intentionally left out of productivity bonuses because the pure metals used to make the alloy mix were themselves already amenable to production boosts and I deliberately wanted to avoid double-dipping of that kind. That was my choice; anyone is free to make their own patch mod if they don't like any particular decision I took.

With hindsight, I should have just removed prod modules from the scenario completely, I never liked them or beacons anyway, either as a player or a modder - productivity is fine in the context of the vanilla scenario with its limited recipe palette but the API for extending and restricting the use of modules is pretty barebones and a bit frustrating.

I worked on the mod and supported it on and off for 3.5 years as well as contributing a bunch of other stuff. There weren't any very important bug reports between July and December 2021 except stuff I found myself which was mostly cosmetic. My support for the mod came to a close just last week, at the end of 2021 - I'm spending my leisure time in other ways these days and have no plans to update the mod for future Factorio expansions.
Hi!!!

I appreciate your response and the work you put into this beautiful and quality mod. I think you might miss my point at least partially. I am absolutely fine with any gameplay decisions you think are worth having. My point was that you can accidentally put Prod into machines you are not supposed to. This is a minor bug/issue.


Beacons allow for diversity of builds, without them all final optimized builds would end up looking almost exactly the same. Prod modules do not really have that much impact at lower intermediate products. In the end it is a matter of amount of input raw material. So you may end up lower/higher raw materials required with or without Prod modules, but this is not critical in grand scheme of things if you have basically vast or infinite resources in factorio. It would just be a little different game without Prods. It is possible to put Prod modules into science assemblers which gives much more significant raw material savings. So to me it is just odd to restrict this for some random low tier intermediate recipe while down the production chain there are items which allow to give much more boost with Prod modules. Good point that scrapping recipes should not allow Prod modules obviously.

I would not want Prod modules removed from factorio too (including mods). They add one more variable to consider when building factories, which is good for gameplay. Yes it would be a bit harder without them in a few places, because it would require more raw materials. However as an author of the mod you have complete control of every recipe so you could make it harder (require more materials) even with Prod modules if you wanted to.

Additionally to your point that there is "enough production boosting" etc. This is quite subjective statement, it can be as well said (I am not saying ) that there is not enough prod boosting. For example, with more productivity, you actually may get into various throughput challenges in intermediate items to make it more interesting etc. The matter of fact it does not matter much. It would be a slightly different game.

How is that support ended? Are you saying the mod is absolutely perfect or dead? I wouldn't think any of these. You are like burning bridges by saying that. Just say you will support it when you feel like it. Also I believe you are shooting yourself in the foot with you licensing decision(s) too. I hope you ever reconsider. Happy new year!

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Re: Industrial Revolution 2 discussion

Post by Niyu.Cuatro »

Deadlock989 wrote:
Mon Jan 03, 2022 4:12 pm

...

I worked on the mod and supported it on and off for 3.5 years as well as contributing a bunch of other stuff. There weren't any very important bug reports between July and December 2021 except stuff I found myself which was mostly cosmetic. My support for the mod came to a close just last week, at the end of 2021 - I'm spending my leisure time in other ways these days and have no plans to update the mod for future Factorio expansions.
Well, if this is the last we see of you, thanks for all of your work and i wish you the best of luck in your future endeavors.

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Re: Industrial Revolution 2 discussion

Post by Hiekie »

I completed the game a month ago and it was really great!

Thanks @Deadlock989 for this game!

i did it play all the way, starting with the steam generation
Will absolutely play this a second time, i used FNE to understand how the recipes should be made. I have already a lot of ideas for setting up the next base and what to change to make things more organized!

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