[MOD 0.17+] Industrial Revolution (0.99.x)

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OvermindDL1
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Re: [MOD 0.17+] Industrial Revolution (0.99.x)

Post by OvermindDL1 » Mon Sep 09, 2019 9:02 pm

fishycat wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 8:45 pm
Deadlock989 wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 8:17 pm
2. Take the fuel value off wooden beams. Raw wood is only used in two recipes: making wooden beams, and making big wooden poles. The latter is an Iron Age tech anyway so you've got, or are close to getting, electric inserters by then. It means that once wood is turned into a beam, it's somehow immune to fire.

Maybe by adding another step in stoneage, where the beams get treated with liquid copper, that needs smelting in the stone furnace first. And so somehow they could be immune to fire, maybe!? :D
Or rather, just some kind of resin or seed oil treatment or something. Makes it weather resistant, unburnable, etc... Perfect thing for power poles and other such outdoor setups.

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Re: [MOD 0.17+] Industrial Revolution (0.99.x)

Post by Deadlock989 » Mon Sep 09, 2019 9:03 pm

McDuff wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 8:56 pm
Just came to ask where to find rubber trees, I see that the RNG is kind of a dick about that sometimes. Am getting mauled by biters looking for them but I'll perservere. Would be good if they could be put in the starting area with a bit more frequency, maybe?

ETA or maybe make the clumps/groves bigger. I've managed to find one rubber sapling so far lol.
A. Warmish and moist-ish biomes
B. Different colour on map
C. Monowheel
D. Starter kits as last resort if you insist on infinite desert
E. Are not the kind of resource that is amenable to starting area weights AFAIK
F. Noise layer system that generates trees is a literal portal into hell, difficult to express just how bafflingly alien and abstract it is
G. Map gen settings can tweak their abundance, but if they were buffed on default settings then RNG also says you can be literally carpeted with them
H. My last speed run to time getting a copper assembler from scratch on completely default settings was delayed by 3 mins because there was no actual wood for the copper beams in starting area, only rubber trees
I. Vanilla Factorio generates default settings maps which are bad to play as well

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Re: [MOD 0.17+] Industrial Revolution (0.99.x)

Post by fishycat » Mon Sep 09, 2019 9:32 pm

Yeah, on a second thought this feels too unnecessarily complicated for such a common thing like a pole.

OvermindDL1 wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 9:02 pm
Or rather, just some kind of resin or seed oil treatment or something. Makes it weather resistant, unburnable, etc... Perfect thing for power poles and other such outdoor setups.

This sounds much better to me, pretty simple solution, that could justify immunity.

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Re: [MOD 0.17+] Industrial Revolution (0.99.x)

Post by Gouldukat » Tue Sep 10, 2019 12:53 am

Just playing around to figure out how to make stuff and how to better at least start the game (because first time i just done a 6hour hand crafting list) and so im starting to get the hang of it ...

And surprise i'm making water out of nothing testing stuff around, bad point is you can not really get rid of it :-o ( i was thinking to burn it in boilers for power, put them in the nuclear plant and in the refinery ... but if you do little bit of calculation and do all smelting line like that you will reach a point where you're making water world :-p

Deadlock989 i think it need to be fixed ? ( can i ask to have the possibility to smelt back to ingot all stuff crafted too ?)

Thank you for the mod, the sound machine and animation are sublime ! I love just to sit and watch them churn and listen to them, really good.
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Re: [MOD 0.17+] Industrial Revolution (0.99.x)

Post by Drury » Tue Sep 10, 2019 3:29 am

Gouldukat wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 12:53 am
Just playing around to figure out how to make stuff and how to better at least start the game (because first time i just done a 6hour hand crafting list) and so im starting to get the hang of it ...

And surprise i'm making water out of nothing testing stuff around, bad point is you can not really get rid of it :-o ( i was thinking to burn it in boilers for power, put them in the nuclear plant and in the refinery ... but if you do little bit of calculation and do all smelting line like that you will reach a point where you're making water world :-p

Deadlock989 i think it need to be fixed ? ( can i ask to have the possibility to smelt back to ingot all stuff crafted too ?)

Thank you for the mod, the sound machine and animation are sublime ! I love just to sit and watch them churn and listen to them, really good.
oh my

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Re: [MOD 0.17+] Industrial Revolution (0.99.x)

Post by mrvn » Tue Sep 10, 2019 3:46 am

Why do trains need a combustion engine? I would have thought there would be steam locomotive first. After all it runs on wood or coal so a combustion engine (which would normally use fossile fuel) makes little sense in the iron age.

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Re: [MOD 0.17+] Industrial Revolution (0.99.x)

Post by Bilka » Tue Sep 10, 2019 6:01 am

Gouldukat wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 12:53 am

And surprise i'm making water out of nothing testing stuff around, bad point is you can not really get rid of it :-o ( i was thinking to burn it in boilers for power, put them in the nuclear plant and in the refinery ... but if you do little bit of calculation and do all smelting line like that you will reach a point where you're making water world :-p
Could you explain what you think produces excess water in that setup?

The prod moduled ore washer won't be it, the water is a catalyst and not affected by prod modules.
I'm an admin over at https://wiki.factorio.com. Feel free to contact me if there's anything wrong (or right) with it.

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Re: [MOD 0.17+] Industrial Revolution (0.99.x)

Post by kingarthur » Tue Sep 10, 2019 6:45 am

Bilka wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 6:01 am
Gouldukat wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 12:53 am

And surprise i'm making water out of nothing testing stuff around, bad point is you can not really get rid of it :-o ( i was thinking to burn it in boilers for power, put them in the nuclear plant and in the refinery ... but if you do little bit of calculation and do all smelting line like that you will reach a point where you're making water world :-p
Could you explain what you think produces excess water in that setup?

The prod moduled ore washer won't be it, the water is a catalyst and not affected by prod modules.
whatever that orange fluid is has a positive loop from the bottom row and then 2 rows up it outputs more than came in

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Re: [MOD 0.17+] Industrial Revolution (0.99.x)

Post by Bilka » Tue Sep 10, 2019 7:11 am

kingarthur wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 6:45 am
whatever that orange fluid is has a positive loop from the bottom row and then 2 rows up it outputs more than came in
In the planner, maybe. In-game? Nope. The planner doesn't respect that catalysts aren't affected by the productivity modules.
I'm an admin over at https://wiki.factorio.com. Feel free to contact me if there's anything wrong (or right) with it.

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Re: [MOD 0.17+] Industrial Revolution (0.99.x)

Post by MiiNiPaa » Tue Sep 10, 2019 8:34 am

mrvn wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 3:46 am
Why do trains need a combustion engine? I would have thought there would be steam locomotive first. After all it runs on wood or coal so a combustion engine (which would normally use fossile fuel) makes little sense in the iron age.
Steam engines are combustion engines. External combustion engines, as opposed to internal combustion engines commongly installed in modern cars. Also, coal is actually a fossil fuel.

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Re: [MOD 0.17+] Industrial Revolution (0.99.x)

Post by Deadlock989 » Tue Sep 10, 2019 9:42 am

kingarthur wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 6:45 am
whatever that orange fluid is has a positive loop from the bottom row and then 2 rows up it outputs more than came in
Like Bilka says, no, it doesn't.

I want to see actual machines placed in the actual world actually working, or it didn't happen.

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Re: [MOD 0.17+] Industrial Revolution (0.99.x)

Post by enchant » Tue Sep 10, 2019 9:47 am

Rithordus wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 8:15 pm
By the time you get to bots, you "should" have upgraded your assemblers to electric, in which case fuel values won't matter.
That's a good point.

And thanks, Deadlock, for the explanation of all that. Now back to it...

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Re: [MOD 0.17+] Industrial Revolution (0.99.x)

Post by Deadlock989 » Tue Sep 10, 2019 9:48 am

fishycat wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 9:32 pm
OvermindDL1 wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 9:02 pm
Or rather, just some kind of resin or seed oil treatment or something. Makes it weather resistant, unburnable, etc... Perfect thing for power poles and other such outdoor setups.

This sounds much better to me, pretty simple solution, that could justify immunity.
I'm open minded about doing something like this, but it's a medium job with medium balance consequences and need to know if wood beams and burner inserters are really tripping people up first. So far it's been one report. It didn't come up during playtesting, and we did burner stuff galore. And it can be prevented by stocking the assembler with fuel. It's just one component affected so far, potentially two: copper capped beams and bronze capped beams. They're typically made just once in your base, and not past Iron Age much or at all.

So the workload-to-severity-of-problem ratio is looking a bit imbalanced to me here.

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Re: [MOD 0.17+] Industrial Revolution (0.99.x)

Post by fishycat » Tue Sep 10, 2019 10:03 am

Deadlock989 wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 9:48 am
I'm open minded about doing something like this, but it's a medium job with medium balance consequences and need to know if wood beams and burner inserters are really tripping people up first. So far it's been one report. It didn't come up during playtesting, and we did burner stuff galore. And it can be prevented by stocking the assembler with fuel. It's just one component affected so far, potentially two: copper capped beams and bronze capped beams. They're typically made just once in your base, and not past Iron Age much or at all.

So the workload-to-severity-of-problem ratio is looking a bit imbalanced to me here.
It needs a little more testing, like you said, to find out, if it's really that big of an annoyance. It's not a big deal when the burners remain stocked with the desired fuel. So this would be a minor issus in the end.
But let's find out and go back testing, will report back.

hf testing you all :D

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Re: [MOD 0.17+] Industrial Revolution (0.99.x)

Post by kingarthur » Tue Sep 10, 2019 10:54 am

Deadlock989 wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 9:42 am
kingarthur wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 6:45 am
whatever that orange fluid is has a positive loop from the bottom row and then 2 rows up it outputs more than came in
Like Bilka says, no, it doesn't.

I want to see actual machines placed in the actual world actually working, or it didn't happen.
im just going off that image i haven't gotten to whatever that is anyway. its good to know that the planners are broken and probably should trust the numbers although i tend to use helmod or the like for more like a parts list anyway then as a ratio calculator when byproducts are involved. prefer the brute force build more til its fixed approach than perfect ratios anyway

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Re: [MOD 0.17+] Industrial Revolution (0.99.x)

Post by mrvn » Tue Sep 10, 2019 11:05 am

MiiNiPaa wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 8:34 am
mrvn wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 3:46 am
Why do trains need a combustion engine? I would have thought there would be steam locomotive first. After all it runs on wood or coal so a combustion engine (which would normally use fossile fuel) makes little sense in the iron age.
Steam engines are combustion engines. External combustion engines, as opposed to internal combustion engines commongly installed in modern cars. Also, coal is actually a fossil fuel.
The recipe shows an internal combustion engine though. Something from the modern age.

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Re: [MOD 0.17+] Industrial Revolution (0.99.x)

Post by Deadlock989 » Tue Sep 10, 2019 11:11 am

mrvn wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 11:05 am
The recipe shows an internal combustion engine though. Something from the modern age.
Icons are symbolic. Computer games are an abstraction. This is a non-issue for me. I could rename it "Engine" but it doesn't bother me in the least.

The vanilla engine's icon also looks modern. Its research icon looks like a Scalextric motor. No-one really cares AFAIK.
Last edited by Deadlock989 on Tue Sep 10, 2019 11:15 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: [MOD 0.17+] Industrial Revolution (0.99.x)

Post by Deadlock989 » Tue Sep 10, 2019 11:13 am

FYI, PantherX has kindly fixed the minor issue when IR, Dectorio and Alien Biomes are all installed at the same time. However, the fix to Dectorio has uncovered another bug, this time in IR's support for Dectorio, that still prevents loading. Fixed in next version.
Last edited by Deadlock989 on Tue Sep 10, 2019 1:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: [MOD 0.17+] Industrial Revolution (0.99.x)

Post by mrvn » Tue Sep 10, 2019 12:29 pm

Deadlock989 wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 11:11 am
mrvn wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 11:05 am
The recipe shows an internal combustion engine though. Something from the modern age.
Icons are symbolic. Computer games are an abstraction. This is a non-issue for me. I could rename it "Engine" but it doesn't bother me in the least.

The vanilla engine's icon also looks modern. Its research icon looks like a Scalextric motor. No-one really cares AFAIK.
Regardless how symbolic it is I would have expected a train in the iron age to require a steam engine, not an engine.

Alternatively why doesn't the steam engine require some engines and some copper wiring for the electrical energy production? Where is the generator part in the steam engine?

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Re: [MOD 0.17+] Industrial Revolution (0.99.x)

Post by Deadlock989 » Tue Sep 10, 2019 12:37 pm

* shrug * Pixies, most likely. They are attracted to steam because they like to have a teensy sauna in the evenings. They do all the extra work involved. They carry individual electrons around in tiny buckets made of gossamer and lavender petals.

Looks like I need to repeat, for a small minority of people's benefit, what I said a few pages back but inevitably it got lost.

With balancing, which includes any and all recipes, I can only work with constructive and detailed feedback. Completely open ended questions that lead to back-and-forth breeze-shooting are neither constructive nor detailed.

Completely pointless feedback:

"Bronze is too hard"
"I don't like all the crafting I have to do"
"What is the sound of one hand clapping?"
"Your face is bad and you should feel bad"

Good and useful and interesting feedback:

"I think the ratio between X and X is out of line, it's causing [this specific set of problems at this stage of the game], you have X set to X, but because of [reasons], maybe it should be X and X instead. The set up of machines would then look like [mockup of blueprint]"
"The recipe for X is too easy/difficult/boring because [reasons], if you removed X and replaced it with X and bumped up the number of X to X then it would have the same amount of X but still have 4 components and it would furthermore make a bit more conceptual sense and that is definitely worth the upset of changing recipes on people post-release because of [reasons]"
"Research X should really have X as a prerequisite, I think that would be OK because then X would also depend on X and wouldn't mess up the tree too much, and it would help with [stage of game] because [reasons]"

The stuff about wood beams in the last couple of pages is an example of good feedback because it gave me actual options to consider.

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