[0.17+] Space Exploration WIP

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Re: [0.17+] Space Exploration WIP

Post by hexagonhexagon » Thu Sep 12, 2019 6:38 pm

There is a typo in the Space Exploration Postprocess mod, prototypes/phase-4/general.lua, line 4:

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  data.raw.technology["automation-science-pack"].icon = "__space-exploration-graphics__/graphics/technology/red.png"
should be

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  data.raw.technology["automation-science-pack"].icon = "__space-exploration-graphics__/graphics/technology/beaker/red.png"

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Re: [0.17+] Space Exploration WIP

Post by BHakluyt » Thu Sep 12, 2019 7:18 pm

Hi thanks for the reply. I made that change but it didn't fix my problem, it might have fixed "some other problem" though. However in the end I just unzipped the graphics part of the mod and resized about 4 icon sprites from 32px to 64px with paint.net and now its working. So good bye, and thanks for all the fish. See you guys next year...

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Re: [0.17+] Space Exploration WIP

Post by Crow Sirloin » Tue Sep 17, 2019 7:22 am

another problem
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Re: [0.17+] Space Exploration WIP

Post by BHakluyt » Tue Sep 17, 2019 7:24 am

Yeah check the 4 post before yours... I had the same issue. Just resized the sprites myself with an image editor. Someone said the best would be to find the migration script for the assemblers in the spax mods somewhere and change the code because my icons are screwed in-game now. But hey it plays...

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Re: [0.17+] Space Exploration WIP

Post by Light » Thu Sep 19, 2019 8:16 am

Had some fun making some massive helmod sheets, including one for all of space science. It took several hours of tweaking numbers to perfection and helmod would occasionally break trying to calculate it all. My patience persisted out of curiously for what to expect.

Using only space materials to craft 20 science packs per minute with near perfect recycling yielded this result:

Image
Image

Unfortunately the recycling of scraps and creation of advanced neural gel would break helmod, so this data isn't fully complete. Nevertheless, I did try to recycle the gels/cards/fluids as much as was possible before creation of new material to ensure no materials went to waste. (Thank you OCD)

The latency of helmod calculating all of these made module additions too painfully slow to be feasible and I didn't want to waste several hours doing so. This also doesn't include planetary production such as methane, circuits, glass, plates, etc. (I can only imagine...)

It appears my plan to create a 20/m science setup is out of the question, which given the infinite tech costs was already several hours per research. Bummer.

Curiously, it's actually the junk data card restoration that consumes the most power, even with full Lv9 speed modules applied to the thermal fluids. The long crafting time demands a lot of supercomputers, so efficiency modules combined with speed modules are an absolute must for card recycling.

Image

With both types of modules:
Image

Looking forward to those space beacons.

How have the rest of you been fairing with production of your science packs?
Last edited by Light on Fri Sep 20, 2019 4:45 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: [0.17+] Space Exploration WIP

Post by Pestus » Thu Sep 19, 2019 1:11 pm

On our server, we are no where near the epic builders that some of you guys are, but we're able to figure out the mechanics well enough except for the biosludge cycle.

The biosludge just keeps crashing. No matter what we do we always consume more than we produce. We've got T4 data cards for nearly everything now, universal simulation, and are putting the finishing touches on this in order to ramp up production for deep space flasks. How do you balance biosludge production such that you don't crash? We are missing something key here, but if we're doing nothing but T1 biomass production there appears to be an ever so slight biosludge surplus in the cycle, but as soon as you get into experimental biomass there's a slight deficit, and significant biomass even more so. I'm going to assume we're doing something wrong. In the mod author's "story" there's a hint that bio science is the hardest one to understand.

We do all the decontamination and recycling. We have the contaminated biosludge, the contaminated cosmic water, and the contaminated scrap all dealt with. We are also holding back on methane/biosludge refining until we figure this out.

Getting desperate.. going to start matter fusion of contaminated scrap in huge quantities, but it's likely to only produce minuscule amounts of biomass at great expense in buildings.

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Re: [0.17+] Space Exploration WIP

Post by Lurve » Thu Sep 19, 2019 3:34 pm

This is an absolutely fantastic mod. Love every bit of it.

One minor suggestion: would it be possible to scale rocket part losses to the same factors fuel use is based off? I'd like to be able to set up a rocket trading network between specialized space bases, but the sizable rocket part loss (still ~50% for me, and I'm already zipping around in a small shuttle) makes it a non-starter for anything but bulk transfers. Spaceships largely supersede rockets for space transport, but I prefer the old-school atompunk feel of rockets constantly blasting off. Or maybe a mini-cargo-rocket that's less fuel-efficient but doesn't lose parts? Have it cost 100 or so orange science to research and it could be an alternative to spaceships.

Pestus wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 1:11 pm
On our server, we are no where near the epic builders that some of you guys are, but we're able to figure out the mechanics well enough except for the biosludge cycle.

The biosludge just keeps crashing. No matter what we do we always consume more than we produce. We've got T4 data cards for nearly everything now, universal simulation, and are putting the finishing touches on this in order to ramp up production for deep space flasks. How do you balance biosludge production such that you don't crash? We are missing something key here, but if we're doing nothing but T1 biomass production there appears to be an ever so slight biosludge surplus in the cycle, but as soon as you get into experimental biomass there's a slight deficit, and significant biomass even more so. I'm going to assume we're doing something wrong. In the mod author's "story" there's a hint that bio science is the hardest one to understand.

We do all the decontamination and recycling. We have the contaminated biosludge, the contaminated cosmic water, and the contaminated scrap all dealt with. We are also holding back on methane/biosludge refining until we figure this out.

Getting desperate.. going to start matter fusion of contaminated scrap in huge quantities, but it's likely to only produce minuscule amounts of biomass at great expense in buildings.
I'm not even at your level, but aren't there decent recipes for biosludge production from imported material? Wood, fish, etc? Do they not keep up with demand? If your problem is a lack of renewable wood, try installing Natural Forest Expansion and you will hate trees more than you have ever hated anything. An AAI miner with a long patrol route on one of those forested-but-windy moons will bring back enough lumber for any purpose you can think of.

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Re: [0.17+] Space Exploration WIP

Post by Pestus » Thu Sep 19, 2019 7:33 pm

Lurve,

Thanks for your response! We tried 'growing' wood and fish using the growth facility, and then converting them to biosludge, but it appeared to be a 1:1 input:output situation, where there was no actual positive benefit.

We're also playing with -really- hard biters, and our bases are veritable fortresses. We don't even have global drone networks, instead we use trains with hardened routes to move material between bases, where there's local logistics. Our drones will die if they fly outside of the bases. It's gotten easier now that we have artillery fed by logistics planning, laser walls, and then retaining walls to keep biters from hitting the lasers and nuclear weapons, but going out there to harvest wood would require major effort and only gain us a few minutes of biosludge. we've tried it, and its all we can do to keep science moving.

I've thought about looking for a mod such as you suggest, however the mod maker made his mod suggestions, and I would think it reasonable that he would have balanced the biosludge/bioscience. everything else is so keenly balanced that it's extremely impressive.

Maybe it wasn't meant for our play style, and we're meant to go harvest stuff en masse. I don't know. I'd rather not have to "cheat" biosludge into existence. This kind of makes me feel a little dumb, because I'm sure the answer is right in front of us.

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Re: [0.17+] Space Exploration WIP

Post by Light » Fri Sep 20, 2019 4:42 am

Oops, forgot the image of all the buildings in my former post. But here's a chance to show how the recent recipe speed change impacted the number of buildings for that 20/m design.

Image

Version 142:
Image

It's nice to see some reductions of even 50% post update. Reduced thermal coils is very nice to see, though I may module some of these later to get a final established number. It's going to be a big one.

I'm still tempted to design this entire blueprint just to be in awe at its scale. I must be crazy.

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Re: [0.17+] Space Exploration WIP

Post by Pestus » Fri Sep 20, 2019 5:51 am

Light wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 4:42 am
Oops, forgot the image of all the buildings in my former post. But here's a chance to show how the recent recipe speed change impacted the number of buildings for that 20/m design.

Image

Version 142:
Image

It's nice to see some reductions of even 50% post update. Reduced thermal coils is very nice to see, though I may module some of these later to get a final established number. It's going to be a big one.

I'm still tempted to design this entire blueprint just to be in awe at its scale. I must be crazy.
I'm still grasping at straws trying to figure out how bioscience is done properly. You seem to have ratios worked out to a mathematical degree. I note the different buildings. Is the secret to bioscience is production of nutrient gel products and green biomass in large quantities needed? Almost seems like the amount of buildings for bioscience is far higher than the other 3 branches of science. I always run dry of biosludge and it all stops.

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Re: [0.17+] Space Exploration WIP

Post by Lurve » Fri Sep 20, 2019 4:51 pm

Pestus wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 7:33 pm
Lurve,

Thanks for your response! We tried 'growing' wood and fish using the growth facility, and then converting them to biosludge, but it appeared to be a 1:1 input:output situation, where there was no actual positive benefit.

We're also playing with -really- hard biters, and our bases are veritable fortresses. We don't even have global drone networks, instead we use trains with hardened routes to move material between bases, where there's local logistics. Our drones will die if they fly outside of the bases. It's gotten easier now that we have artillery fed by logistics planning, laser walls, and then retaining walls to keep biters from hitting the lasers and nuclear weapons, but going out there to harvest wood would require major effort and only gain us a few minutes of biosludge. we've tried it, and its all we can do to keep science moving.

I've thought about looking for a mod such as you suggest, however the mod maker made his mod suggestions, and I would think it reasonable that he would have balanced the biosludge/bioscience. everything else is so keenly balanced that it's extremely impressive.

Maybe it wasn't meant for our play style, and we're meant to go harvest stuff en masse. I don't know. I'd rather not have to "cheat" biosludge into existence. This kind of makes me feel a little dumb, because I'm sure the answer is right in front of us.
I had a look at the recipes, and I don't see anything you haven't already mentioned. I think what's missing is a simple "growth" recipe, that takes in a little biosludge, a lot of cosmic water and sand, and outputs less contaminated water and more contaminated biosludge.

I'll reiterate Natural Tree Expansion Reloaded (corrected name). It's *not* a cheat, it's an extra difficulty notch. You really have no idea how annoying it will become having every expansion choked by dense forest that you have no easy way of clearing. And it works seamlessly with the mod author's alien biomes, so it doesn't feel like an artificial tweak.

Barring that, based on experience with other mods using positive feedback loops, the best thing to do is make the biomass loop as modular as possible, and set up a completely separate little sub-factory off to the side whose sole purpose is filling a biosludge pipe for production use. When you run low, add more stuff onto the biofactory.

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Re: [0.17+] Space Exploration WIP

Post by jeesis » Sat Sep 21, 2019 12:26 pm

Got this error on loading the game.

Image

It seems that my lack of having any bobs mods installed is triggering a issue when evaluating if bobsmods are installed. I was able to fix it with a dirty fix of simply making sure that the check for bobsmods were defined or not null (nil in lua speak apparently) in this context. I am sure there is a better way of doing this but it fixed my issue in the interim.

Line 11 in space-exploration-postprocess_0.1.42\prototypes\phase-4\bobs.lua
Original:

Code: Select all

if bobmods and bobmods.lib.recipe and bobmods.lib.tech then
Change:

Code: Select all

if not bobmods == '' and bobmods.lib.recipe and bobmods.lib.tech then

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Re: [0.17+] Space Exploration WIP

Post by Light » Sun Sep 22, 2019 7:12 pm

Pestus wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 5:51 am
Light wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 4:42 am
Oops, forgot the image of all the buildings in my former post. But here's a chance to show how the recent recipe speed change impacted the number of buildings for that 20/m design.

Image

Version 142:
Image

It's nice to see some reductions of even 50% post update. Reduced thermal coils is very nice to see, though I may module some of these later to get a final established number. It's going to be a big one.

I'm still tempted to design this entire blueprint just to be in awe at its scale. I must be crazy.
I'm still grasping at straws trying to figure out how bioscience is done properly. You seem to have ratios worked out to a mathematical degree. I note the different buildings. Is the secret to bioscience is production of nutrient gel products and green biomass in large quantities needed? Almost seems like the amount of buildings for bioscience is far higher than the other 3 branches of science. I always run dry of biosludge and it all stops.
I play with Bobs + Angels and both have their own wood production facilities. While I went with Angel's for better balance purposes, Bob's greenhouses can be used standalone and is likely necessary for sustainable biosludge production at these levels.

There are other greenhouse mods that may better fit your balance desires since Bob's is very OP and would sustain even my production needs with ease if I opted for it. Just note that greenhouses aren't a cure-all as you'll still want to keep on top of contaminated recycling to keep the number of entities as low as possible, as recycling can provide up to 50% of production by itself. You're correct in that biological science is very entity intense and biosludge is also essential in other areas of production outside of it. Advanced neural gel isn't listed here and that too requires a considerable amount for specimens.

For now I've decided to halt any further calculations until Earendel feels no more changes will be performed since 50% reductions is rather significant and would have forced a complete blueprint redesign. I'm still planetside due to ScienceCostTweaker amping up scientific and resource costs, so I'm not in much of a rush to get into space either.

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Re: [0.17+] Space Exploration WIP

Post by lammetje » Wed Sep 25, 2019 12:29 pm

Pestus wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 7:33 pm
Lurve,

Thanks for your response! We tried 'growing' wood and fish using the growth facility, and then converting them to biosludge, but it appeared to be a 1:1 input:output situation, where there was no actual positive benefit.

We're also playing with -really- hard biters, and our bases are veritable fortresses. We don't even have global drone networks, instead we use trains with hardened routes to move material between bases, where there's local logistics. Our drones will die if they fly outside of the bases. It's gotten easier now that we have artillery fed by logistics planning, laser walls, and then retaining walls to keep biters from hitting the lasers and nuclear weapons, but going out there to harvest wood would require major effort and only gain us a few minutes of biosludge. we've tried it, and its all we can do to keep science moving.

I've thought about looking for a mod such as you suggest, however the mod maker made his mod suggestions, and I would think it reasonable that he would have balanced the biosludge/bioscience. everything else is so keenly balanced that it's extremely impressive.

Maybe it wasn't meant for our play style, and we're meant to go harvest stuff en masse. I don't know. I'd rather not have to "cheat" biosludge into existence. This kind of makes me feel a little dumb, because I'm sure the answer is right in front of us.

I have set it up in such a way that the machines involved with science production are only allowed to insert ingredients unless biosludge is above a certain threshold. This is done using circuit conditions. If your base is a little more organised than mine is, this could probably be achieved even more easily by pumping the sludge to the science production ONLY when the sludge is above a threshold. this way, the actual production of biosludge has priority. Essentially, I only make science if I have enough sludge, otherwise all biomass to directed towards more sludge. For me this completely solved the biosludge issue.

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Re: [0.17+] Space Exploration WIP

Post by Pestus » Thu Sep 26, 2019 4:41 am

lammetje wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 12:29 pm
I have set it up in such a way that the machines involved with science production are only allowed to insert ingredients unless biosludge is above a certain threshold. This is done using circuit conditions. If your base is a little more organised than mine is, this could probably be achieved even more easily by pumping the sludge to the science production ONLY when the sludge is above a threshold. this way, the actual production of biosludge has priority. Essentially, I only make science if I have enough sludge, otherwise all biomass to directed towards more sludge. For me this completely solved the biosludge issue.
I think this might be the key detail we were missing. We were under the impression that sending biomass to biosludge was another 1:1 input:output loop, of no benefit. Seems we were wrong about this. I'll experiment with this!

Thanks to the others who have posted as well. Seems like bioscience is intense. Our bioscience buildings are a series of logistic drone fed bottling/unbottling assembly machines. We did it this way so we could more easily experiment and tear down modular buildings. If we can figure this cycle out, we can tear down and build a good belt fed fab and get going! I want antimatter!

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Planets Not Appearing on Starmap

Post by TumakWartorn » Mon Sep 30, 2019 4:23 am

I launched satelights and Vioress, Plenai, and Neevus have been discovered but they don't appear on the starmap. This is true for the moons of Rovecutio, Tieneo, Warrus, Minos, etc.

What's up? Some asteriods show up, as does the sun of Nalara...

I even built a rocket silo on Kalediescope and launched a satelight from there thinking the planets and moons were off the map shown by Calidus, but no joy.

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Re: [0.17+] Space Exploration WIP

Post by Zephyrinius » Mon Sep 30, 2019 4:58 am

It’s a starmap. A given solar system with star, planets, and asteroid belts would only be a dot at the scale of the map. So only the star is marked. The planets orbiting that star are in the same place.

A solar system map is on Earendel’s roadmap for development.

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Re: [0.17+] Space Exploration WIP

Post by wladekb » Mon Sep 30, 2019 7:22 pm

Pestus wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 1:11 pm
On our server, we are no where near the epic builders that some of you guys are, but we're able to figure out the mechanics well enough except for the biosludge cycle.

The biosludge just keeps crashing. No matter what we do we always consume more than we produce. We've got T4 data cards for nearly everything now, universal simulation, and are putting the finishing touches on this in order to ramp up production for deep space flasks. How do you balance biosludge production such that you don't crash? We are missing something key here, but if we're doing nothing but T1 biomass production there appears to be an ever so slight biosludge surplus in the cycle, but as soon as you get into experimental biomass there's a slight deficit, and significant biomass even more so. I'm going to assume we're doing something wrong. In the mod author's "story" there's a hint that bio science is the hardest one to understand.

We do all the decontamination and recycling. We have the contaminated biosludge, the contaminated cosmic water, and the contaminated scrap all dealt with. We are also holding back on methane/biosludge refining until we figure this out.

Getting desperate.. going to start matter fusion of contaminated scrap in huge quantities, but it's likely to only produce minuscule amounts of biomass at great expense in buildings.
I'd say general idea is to separate production from usage in this case.
Create a biosludge factory out of what gives you a surplus, and make sure nothing escapes it besides the excess biosludge - you can achieve it using a storage tank and a pump that has condition on it that the biosludge must be at least 20k. Then create a separate factory for biomass, experimental biomass etc. After that you will know if you need to extend the biosludge factory or the biomass factory. - that's my approach and it works.

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Re: [0.17+] Space Exploration WIP

Post by Roadk7 » Tue Oct 01, 2019 6:42 pm

Light wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 8:16 am

How have the rest of you been fairing with production of your science packs?
automated all but dark matter science, then like you ran helmod and was sure i was doing something wrong when 2s/m produced a HUGE number of buildings... we need some solution here, either another tier of buildings once you get dark matter, beacons like you suggested, stronger recipe to get significant data once you have more insight, reduced recipes, etc.

i dont really like destroying and rebuilding, but instead like adding on once you unlock something else. So my preference, without adding too much, is to have it done with tech. I would buff the data from combo insight more heavily.

What I would love to see is a material that is only available on certain worlds. something like, once you get your first dark matter pack, you unlock the ability to <insert magic/science explanation involving dark matter/black holes/quantum something> to another world that has an ore that requires some complicated logistic set up to mine. this would unlock another tier of super computer that has an ultra strong recipe for sig data. or have it be part of the recipe, so you have incentive to continually mine it vs use and be done.

if you really wanted to go that direction, you could have a couple tiers of this. have 3 worlds/universes, unlocked after you mine the first one, each that gives its one insight that unlocks even more sig data recipes. this would encourage you to expand to more worlds, which in my play through i didnt see a huge benefit, and stayed on the homeworld the entire time (with all my space stuff in orbit of the first world)

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Re: [0.17+] Space Exploration WIP

Post by TumakWartorn » Thu Oct 03, 2019 7:42 pm

Any guidance on what to do when/if you find the anomoly? I've launched 50+ sats and found lots of moons, planets, etc., but am wondering if this is worth it. That is when the anomoly is found it is just that. I read in the dev roadmap something about building a massive structure in/around the anomoly and then powering the structure...

If a script pops up when we find the anomoly and tells us what to do then, that's fine.

After you find 50 different asteroid belts and planets there is plenty of different places to play. No need to search for the anomoly unless there is a big whopping goal to attain.

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