[0.16] Sea Block Pack 0.2.17

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roax206
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Re: [0.16] Sea Block Pack 0.2.16

Post by roax206 » Sat Nov 10, 2018 2:19 pm

ukezi wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 1:10 pm
nice would be a roman concrete recipe. Lime+sand+water->mortar. mortar+crushed stone->landfill/concrete?
I feel like there is something similar already but it might be for glass and it only uses one lime per batch.

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Re: [0.16] Sea Block Pack 0.2.16

Post by ukezi » Sat Nov 10, 2018 3:02 pm

roax206 wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 2:19 pm
ukezi wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 1:10 pm
nice would be a roman concrete recipe. Lime+sand+water->mortar. mortar+crushed stone->landfill/concrete?
I feel like there is something similar already but it might be for glass and it only uses one lime per batch.
yes, glass2 and cement1 with Silicon Ore. I just think that sand fits better there. sand can be silica or Calcium carbonate. so they could be exchanged with one another for cement.

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Re: [0.16] Sea Block Pack 0.2.16

Post by TheBreadbird » Thu Nov 15, 2018 12:00 am

Alright its really late for me so I might be losing my mind but shouldn't washing be better for power than dirtwater in terms of mw/sludge? HELMOD tells me that with T3 Electrolysers dirtwater is petter on the power, seems wrong since the whole geodes thing is way more complicated and needs more space and has greater upfront cost. For 400 Mineral Sludge HELmod tells me I need 22.5MW using washing and 21.3MW with dirtwater electrolyses. Did I fuck up some settings or something? This seems wrong. And I dont think a little mud & Hydrogen Sulfide Gas is more of a hassel than a bonus but maybe thats where I am wrong? Am I forgetting something?

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Re: [0.16] Sea Block Pack 0.2.16

Post by jodokus31 » Thu Nov 15, 2018 4:52 pm

TheBreadbird wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 12:00 am
Alright its really late for me so I might be losing my mind but shouldn't washing be better for power than dirtwater in terms of mw/sludge? HELMOD tells me that with T3 Electrolysers dirtwater is petter on the power, seems wrong since the whole geodes thing is way more complicated and needs more space and has greater upfront cost. For 400 Mineral Sludge HELmod tells me I need 22.5MW using washing and 21.3MW with dirtwater electrolyses. Did I fuck up some settings or something? This seems wrong. And I dont think a little mud & Hydrogen Sulfide Gas is more of a hassel than a bonus but maybe thats where I am wrong? Am I forgetting something?
Honestly, for late game, i would consider using the Dirt Water anyway (with speed modules and beacons), because it should consume less UPS. Power and space should be no real issue.
However, geodes is a lot of fun to setup and should consume slightly less power (IIRC from my calculations from the past)

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Re: [0.16] Sea Block Pack 0.2.16

Post by computer-whisperer » Fri Nov 16, 2018 5:32 pm

Hi, I have been hosting a seablock world for about a year now. We were starting to run into server lag issues, so I added the clusterio mod setup to let multiple instances run independently. Each instance has its own world file, and I am suddenly noticing that certain recipes are different between them.

For example: the green "Electronic Circuit" recipe is:

old server (created in 0.15, updated to the present version):
1 Basic electronic board
4 Iron plates

new server (created in present version):
1 Basic electronic board
2 Iron plates

I only noticed this last night, so I haven't had a chance to check all of the other recipes in the world.

I am wondering what I can do to consolidate these recipes? Due to the amount of factory engineering we put in already, it would be great if we could copy the recipe list from the old server to the new server. What sets these recipes? I haven't been able to find any config file or mod setting that is different between them. (mod-settings.dat is identical).

Thanks!

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Re: [0.16] Sea Block Pack 0.2.16

Post by Trainwreck » Sun Nov 18, 2018 6:44 am

The four iron plates recipe is the expensive mode version. If you're seeing that recipe then the save is set to use expensive mode recipes. Most likely because the save was created using marathon presets.
I'm not familiar with how clusterio works, you should check that each save is using the same map settings.

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Re: [0.16] Sea Block Pack 0.2.17

Post by Trainwreck » Mon Nov 19, 2018 6:24 am

Sea block pack 0.2.17 has been released. Check first post for download link.

Update 2018-11-19, version 0.2.17
  • Reduce cellulose fiber and wood pellet crafting time.
  • ScienceCostTweaker science pack waste byproduct adjustment.
  • Update all mods to latest versions.

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Re: [0.16] Sea Block Pack 0.2.17

Post by ukezi » Mon Nov 19, 2018 1:13 pm

Previous it was 12 Algae-> <6 Liquifier for fiber->8 assemblers for pallets->1 assembler for blocks->3.5 Furnaces for charcoal.
Now it's 12 Algae-> 9.6 assemblers for fiber->6 assemblers for pallets->1 assembler for blocks->3.5 Furnaces for charcoal.
I would like to also reduce the assemblers for fiber to 6 with a time of 1.25 per craft. That way I can use one assembler for two farms.

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Re: [0.16] Sea Block Pack 0.2.17

Post by BlueRaja » Sun Nov 25, 2018 1:09 am

This is the most poorly balanced Factorio mod I've ever played.

Slag takes a ton of electricity to make, but everything in the early game requires slag to produce, including fuel. For all of the early game, you don't have enough electricity to make more slag, and don't have enough slag to fuel more electricity. Thus you end up spending most of the first 10 hours twiddling your thumbs waiting for stuff to finish, with absolutely nothing you can do to speed things up.

In order for this mod to actually be fun, Slag generation should be done in a smaller building that requires significantly less electricity, and generates it much MUCH faster.

(Also, smaller complaint, a lot of the early technologies require electrical circuits, which you can't build until much later)

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Re: [0.16] Sea Block Pack 0.2.17

Post by NeuralParity » Sun Nov 25, 2018 2:23 am

BlueRaja wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 1:09 am
Thus you end up spending most of the first 10 hours twiddling your thumbs waiting for stuff to finish, with absolutely nothing you can do to speed things up.
The optimal tech order and continual hand-crafting of cellulose fibre means you can solve your power constraints in just under 4 hours.
BlueRaja wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 1:09 am
This is the most poorly balanced Factorio mod I've ever played.
The starting game in indeed slow. Is it really poorly balanced if the early game is intended to be power-constrained? The author included a power management mini-game but you can console spawn some more wind turbines if it's not your cup of tea.

That said, your criticisms are correct for marathon settings which extend the early game out to around 50 hours. My solution was to just change the game speed to x16 during the downtime waiting for the next tech.

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Re: [0.16] Sea Block Pack 0.2.17

Post by Zavian » Sun Nov 25, 2018 4:41 am

NeuralParity wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 2:23 am
The optimal tech order and continual hand-crafting of cellulose fibre means you can solve your power constraints in just under 4 hours.
That is still a painfully slow 4 hours, just to get to a point where you can start scaling up. Personally I would be inclined to double the starting amount of landfill. Then add some solar panels. Enough that wind + solar can fully power whatever the modpack author considers a starting factory during daytime. At night you either need to let production slow to a crawl, or burn something in steam engines. That gives the player an incentive to think about other sources of power even before they start scaling up. (I would probably add some inserter and either some chests or belts so there would be less hand carrying of resources during the stat phase).

Also if the modpack really wants to you to continuously hand-craft cellulose fibre for 4 hours, then maybe it should include something like https://mods.factorio.com/mod/autocraft . (Though once you are past the start, and have scaled up, you probably don't want a mod that automates continual hand crafting).

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Re: [0.16] Sea Block Pack 0.2.17

Post by jodokus31 » Sun Nov 25, 2018 11:00 am

BlueRaja wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 1:09 am
In order for this mod to actually be fun, Slag generation should be done in a smaller building that requires significantly less electricity, and generates it much MUCH faster.
This mod is obviously no fun for you. But for me, it was one of the greatest factorio experiences so far (besides vanilla). People are different and this mod is very popular. But consider: The first 10 hours are only a minimal fraction of the whole experience ;)
NeuralParity wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 2:23 am
BlueRaja wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 1:09 am
Thus you end up spending most of the first 10 hours twiddling your thumbs waiting for stuff to finish, with absolutely nothing you can do to speed things up.
The optimal tech order and continual hand-crafting of cellulose fibre means you can solve your power constraints in just under 4 hours.
I'm looking forward to see, what the speedrunners' strategy is going to be :)

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Re: [0.16] Sea Block Pack 0.2.17

Post by mrvn » Mon Nov 26, 2018 10:20 am

jodokus31 wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 11:00 am
BlueRaja wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 1:09 am
In order for this mod to actually be fun, Slag generation should be done in a smaller building that requires significantly less electricity, and generates it much MUCH faster.
This mod is obviously no fun for you. But for me, it was one of the greatest factorio experiences so far (besides vanilla). People are different and this mod is very popular. But consider: The first 10 hours are only a minimal fraction of the whole experience ;)
NeuralParity wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 2:23 am
BlueRaja wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 1:09 am
Thus you end up spending most of the first 10 hours twiddling your thumbs waiting for stuff to finish, with absolutely nothing you can do to speed things up.
The optimal tech order and continual hand-crafting of cellulose fibre means you can solve your power constraints in just under 4 hours.
I'm looking forward to see, what the speedrunners' strategy is going to be :)
I went for producing a large green algae farm to produce charcoal and burn it. You need a number for electrolysers for this. And a lot of the generated power goes right back into the power plant. It's critical to research boilers and steam engine mk II to increase the yield and Algae Farm mk II helps too. I never bothered building any more wind turbine. They generate too little power. After building the initial algae power plant the next goal should be wood production using aboretums. You need to find a few trees and might have to kill some worms for this. But wood production is so much better than algae... I'm also favouring coke pellets. Another boost in fuel value.

As for ore production the goal is geode washing. That needs some fair amount of research. But fear not. You also need the Mineral Sludge from Slag setup that you can build earlier to use up slag from ore sorting. A Sludge from Crushed stone setup is also important later on to get rid of crushed stone. But not for a long time. At the start put all excess into landfill (sand). I started with using a splitter: 1/2 crushed stone for sand, 1/2 for the early crystalization process.

Tech wise you really only need a minimal setup for red and green science. Later for blue and military. Even just one assembler each is enough to get going. It's not like you will have a overabundance of ores and at first you will be lucky to keep one assembler going at all. I made a starter setup that gets ingreediences from chests and used that for the longest time. At least till I made a wood power plant and geode washing.

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Re: [0.16] Sea Block Pack 0.2.17

Post by NeuralParity » Tue Nov 27, 2018 6:40 am

mrvn wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 10:20 am
I went for producing a large green algae farm to produce charcoal and burn it. You need a number for electrolysers for this.
My spreadsheet tells me this is only optimal on marathon settings due to the massively higher cost of research, building steel costs. In normal mode you can rush to arboretums before the algae farms have paid for themselves. This of course assumes a) you rush them whilst prioritising tech the yield-increasing techs on your path to them and b) you continually hand-craft for the additional power.

Edit: the optimal marathon build is actually quite interesting as it switches between techs (% based output improvements) and making more algae farms (fixed +kw output improvements), about three or four times and by the time you've teched into the trees you end up with ~24-32 mk1 algae farms.

Marathon Mk2 buildings are prohibitively expensive (over 100 steel per building!) so you end up delaying the upgrade for a long long time.
mrvn wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 10:20 am
At the start put all excess into landfill (sand). I started with using a splitter: 1/2 crushed stone for sand, 1/2 for the early crystalization process.
The most power-efficient way to landfill is to use the crushed stone from geodes and shoot the massive number of wooden chests full of crystal dust that you accumulate.
mrvn wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 10:20 am
I made a starter setup that gets ingreediences from chests and used that for the longest time.
It's a good approach. You can get a bit more materials savings though direct insertion chains. The cost of inserters and belts is relatively high so setups such as direct insertion of slag into liquifiers (or 4 electrolysers into 2 burner crushers into 1 liquifier in the early game) saves some materials as well has handholding of your factory. You get make 90 degree inserters without any tech and they are absolutely required early game to get the item throughput you need.

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Re: [0.16] Sea Block Pack 0.2.17

Post by ukezi » Wed Nov 28, 2018 10:25 am

(or 4 electrolysers into 2 burner crushers into 1 liquifier in the early game)
Why would you crush it before the liquifier? That way needs 2x the electrolysers for sludge. Or are we talking mineralized water?

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Re: [0.16] Sea Block Pack 0.2.17

Post by NeuralParity » Wed Nov 28, 2018 11:31 pm

ukezi wrote:
Wed Nov 28, 2018 10:25 am
(or 4 electrolysers into 2 burner crushers into 1 liquifier in the early game)
Why would you crush it before the liquifier? That way needs 2x the electrolysers for sludge. Or are we talking mineralized water?
We are indeed talking about the early game mineralized water used layout, although it applies equally well to late game mineralised water as it's more UPS efficient since the production cycle is so much simpler as well as being more power efficient if you're playing marathon mode.

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Re: [0.16] Sea Block Pack 0.2.17

Post by mrvn » Thu Nov 29, 2018 10:49 am

NeuralParity wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 6:40 am
mrvn wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 10:20 am
I went for producing a large green algae farm to produce charcoal and burn it. You need a number for electrolysers for this.
My spreadsheet tells me this is only optimal on marathon settings due to the massively higher cost of research, building steel costs. In normal mode you can rush to arboretums before the algae farms have paid for themselves. This of course assumes a) you rush them whilst prioritising tech the yield-increasing techs on your path to them and b) you continually hand-craft for the additional power.

Edit: the optimal marathon build is actually quite interesting as it switches between techs (% based output improvements) and making more algae farms (fixed +kw output improvements), about three or four times and by the time you've teched into the trees you end up with ~24-32 mk1 algae farms.

Marathon Mk2 buildings are prohibitively expensive (over 100 steel per building!) so you end up delaying the upgrade for a long long time.
mrvn wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 10:20 am
At the start put all excess into landfill (sand). I started with using a splitter: 1/2 crushed stone for sand, 1/2 for the early crystalization process.
The most power-efficient way to landfill is to use the crushed stone from geodes and shoot the massive number of wooden chests full of crystal dust that you accumulate.
mrvn wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 10:20 am
I made a starter setup that gets ingreediences from chests and used that for the longest time.
It's a good approach. You can get a bit more materials savings though direct insertion chains. The cost of inserters and belts is relatively high so setups such as direct insertion of slag into liquifiers (or 4 electrolysers into 2 burner crushers into 1 liquifier in the early game) saves some materials as well has handholding of your factory. You get make 90 degree inserters without any tech and they are absolutely required early game to get the item throughput you need.
When I first started SeaBlock there were no Aboretums so Algae farms was the only way. So I guess I just got used to building an algae power plant. I have a nice blueprint for it that I can just put down and then built it bit by bit starting with just one algae farm, a few assemblers and furnaces and boiler+steam engine.

As for landfill. I'm talking early, before you have geode washing. Once you have geode washing the loop produces an excess of crushed stone and sulfur. The sulfur you want to keep. There is no other use for it at the start but later on you can use huge amounts of sulphuric acids. The crushed stone at that stage I split into stone, stone bricks and landfill using splitters. Stone and Stone Bricks just fill a chest and then everything goes into landfill.

I think I've never stashed crystal dust to use the crushed stone for something else. I just let the ores accumulate while waiting for landfill. It's not like you won't need them to create the buildings you plan to put on the new land. Or to do science. Once you have a number of washing plants it rather becomes a problem getting rid of the crushed stone.

I have a nice setup with 140 washing plants and Deadlocks stacking. With 140 washing plants mk II you get nearly a compressed belt of blue geode stacks. Same for red. Less for the other colors. Overall you get 4 yellow belts of crystal dust stacks and 4+ yellow belts of crushed stone stacks. There is a fair amount of excess crushed stone coming out of that.

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Re: [0.16] Sea Block Pack 0.2.17

Post by Theaisa » Thu Nov 29, 2018 5:00 pm

mrvn wrote:
Thu Nov 29, 2018 10:49 am
NeuralParity wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 6:40 am
mrvn wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 10:20 am
I went for producing a large green algae farm to produce charcoal and burn it. You need a number for electrolysers for this.
My spreadsheet tells me this is only optimal on marathon settings due to the massively higher cost of research, building steel costs. In normal mode you can rush to arboretums before the algae farms have paid for themselves. This of course assumes a) you rush them whilst prioritising tech the yield-increasing techs on your path to them and b) you continually hand-craft for the additional power.

Edit: the optimal marathon build is actually quite interesting as it switches between techs (% based output improvements) and making more algae farms (fixed +kw output improvements), about three or four times and by the time you've teched into the trees you end up with ~24-32 mk1 algae farms.

Marathon Mk2 buildings are prohibitively expensive (over 100 steel per building!) so you end up delaying the upgrade for a long long time.
mrvn wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 10:20 am
At the start put all excess into landfill (sand). I started with using a splitter: 1/2 crushed stone for sand, 1/2 for the early crystalization process.
The most power-efficient way to landfill is to use the crushed stone from geodes and shoot the massive number of wooden chests full of crystal dust that you accumulate.
mrvn wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 10:20 am
I made a starter setup that gets ingreediences from chests and used that for the longest time.
It's a good approach. You can get a bit more materials savings though direct insertion chains. The cost of inserters and belts is relatively high so setups such as direct insertion of slag into liquifiers (or 4 electrolysers into 2 burner crushers into 1 liquifier in the early game) saves some materials as well has handholding of your factory. You get make 90 degree inserters without any tech and they are absolutely required early game to get the item throughput you need.
When I first started SeaBlock there were no Aboretums so Algae farms was the only way. So I guess I just got used to building an algae power plant. I have a nice blueprint for it that I can just put down and then built it bit by bit starting with just one algae farm, a few assemblers and furnaces and boiler+steam engine.

As for landfill. I'm talking early, before you have geode washing. Once you have geode washing the loop produces an excess of crushed stone and sulfur. The sulfur you want to keep. There is no other use for it at the start but later on you can use huge amounts of sulphuric acids. The crushed stone at that stage I split into stone, stone bricks and landfill using splitters. Stone and Stone Bricks just fill a chest and then everything goes into landfill.

I think I've never stashed crystal dust to use the crushed stone for something else. I just let the ores accumulate while waiting for landfill. It's not like you won't need them to create the buildings you plan to put on the new land. Or to do science. Once you have a number of washing plants it rather becomes a problem getting rid of the crushed stone.

I have a nice setup with 140 washing plants and Deadlocks stacking. With 140 washing plants mk II you get nearly a compressed belt of blue geode stacks. Same for red. Less for the other colors. Overall you get 4 yellow belts of crystal dust stacks and 4+ yellow belts of crushed stone stacks. There is a fair amount of excess crushed stone coming out of that.
I have found that the addition of trees and the arbotorium completely solved the early game issues for me. It doesn't take long at all to get them up and running, and even a single tree provides like 10 MW of power for a good sized Base. I do like to run the first 4-8 hours on double speed, but I never feel like I am standing around...

I don't do green algae at all until I do solar power (they make decent bio batteries).

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Re: [0.16] Sea Block Pack 0.2.17

Post by BlueRaja » Fri Nov 30, 2018 7:19 am

For anyone interested, we increased the slag production of electrolyzers from 1 to 3, and are having a lot more fun. It makes the early game SIGNIFICANTLY more balanced, while still being extremely challenging. We are still constantly running out of power/slag/everything else, but now we can generally actually do something about it, rather than sit and twiddle our thumbs waiting.

To do this, open %APPDATA%\Factorio\mods\angelspetrochem_0.7.12\prototypes\recipespetrochem-basics.lua, and change this line:
{type="item", name="slag", amount=1}
to this:
{type="item", name="slag", amount=3}

I would highly recommend that the mod author make this a part of the actual mod.

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Re: [0.16] Sea Block Pack 0.2.17

Post by jodokus31 » Fri Nov 30, 2018 3:29 pm

BlueRaja wrote:
Fri Nov 30, 2018 7:19 am
For anyone interested, we increased the slag production of electrolyzers from 1 to 3, and are having a lot more fun. It makes the early game SIGNIFICANTLY more balanced, while still being extremely challenging. We are still constantly running out of power/slag/everything else, but now we can generally actually do something about it, rather than sit and twiddle our thumbs waiting.

To do this, open %APPDATA%\Factorio\mods\angelspetrochem_0.7.12\prototypes\recipespetrochem-basics.lua, and change this line:
{type="item", name="slag", amount=1}
to this:
{type="item", name="slag", amount=3}

I would highly recommend that the mod author make this a part of the actual mod.
I'm glad you found a solution :)
Be also sure to triple the amount of geodes from washing, unless you don't want to use it for get mineral sludge/crystal seedling.

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