Factorio Forums

talchas wrote:Yeah, it's straight up worse in terms of inputs and power and space. You need level 2 for it to actually be at all useful.

I'd have thought it was 4 silicon ore to 1 glass in regular smelting, then it would keep making sense at you got the advanced levels

BlakeMW wrote:

Arch666Angel wrote:Would it help to make the paper process more of a batch process and leave the actual paper bleaching as it is? Would come out more like the plastic chains then

The first thing is that the Bob's recipe is too good: raw wood -> wood -> wooden board both being 0.5s and taking productivity modules, too hard to compete with without that recipe being nerfed or removed.

The other thing is I think there's too much Sodium Whatever as a byproduct of Tier2 and Tier3 paper bleaching recipes, the Sodium Carbonate is hard to use up at the rate with which wooden boards are needed. Sodium Hypochlorite could be used up making rocket fuel, but that's very late game compared with the tier2 recipe. I think the balance would be better if the woody components of the recipes were doubled relative to the non-woody.

Hint: Paper 1 and paper 2 are closed loops (with a slight loss in certain materials == pulping liquor/energy)

Arch666Angel wrote: Hint: Paper 1 and paper 2 are closed loops (with a slight loss in certain materials == pulping liquor/energy)

I know the pulping recipes are, I'm talking about the bleaching recipes, there are no recipes to turn Sodium Hypochlorite and Sodium Carbonate back into Sodium Hydroxide so they have to be sent on to other recipes, and at the quantities produced it is problematic unless you're using the paper bleaching recipe to produce the byproduct with some wooden boards on the side.

The main problem is the paper processes are so slow compared to the cellulose paste variante, that in turn is a lot weaker then aboretum based processes and need way more material and power. For 40/s wooden board form paper you need 160 craft speed , for wooden board from wood you need 10 . For Paper 2 you need so much sodium hydroxide that you could make eight times at much with the paste process. The complexity is nice, but you just have not enough output. Also power. For 40/s wooden board, 8.6MW for an aboretum complex , 34.3 MW for paste and 113.3 MW for paper1, and 122.8 with paper2, if you go with ammonia synthesis. More with blue algae. Also paper 2 has a huge surplus of sodium hypechloride, sodium and sulfur. I didn't even bother to helmod paper3.
I recommend to increase the throughput of the first last four steps of paper1 by at x16 and halve the input to get parallel with paste. It is more complex but earlier tech then paste. paper2 should at least 1.5 times as productive as paper1 for all the complexity it introduces. And paper 3 should be about 2x as productive as paper1.
Also Raw Wood 3 needs an additional input or something, at the moment it's just a straight upgrade of Raw Wood 2

Thanks for the analysis, I'll take a look at it the next couple of days.

ukezi wrote:you also have to consider the amount of brown algae you need for paper. I think I will make a mod to speed it up.

I never had a problem supplying brown algae. Lots of places have an excess of salt water and I mostly throw it away because brown algae don't use it all.

I meant the complete process as you can see from my analysis, paper is very under powered and trees very strong. Brown algae was an other consideration, needing 130 Algae farms vs. 55.

ukezi wrote:I meant the complete process as you can see from my analysis, paper is very under powered and trees very strong. Brown algae was an other consideration, needing 130 Algae farms vs. 55.

Of those 130 Algae farms 80 are for green algae (88.89 actually for a total of 138.89).

So the comparison is:

89 green algae farms -> 56 green algae farms
50 brown algae farms (166.666 saline water) -> 8 Electrolyser (400 saline water)

My point was that saline water is a really minor component in all this. It's just 1.6 saline water plants for the 50 brown algae plant, right? I could probably run most of them from saline water I clarify at the moment.

I updated from Sea Block 0.2.1 or 0.2.0. Now Nitrogen Processing is marked as researched which allows me to produce ammonia from just nitrogen and hydrogen. This technology was locked or disabled until now. Furthermore I am able to make compressors instead of air filters which also is not intended I suppose. Can I somehow disable the technologies again which would make it almost too easy?

Megatron wrote:I updated from Sea Block 0.2.1 or 0.2.0. Now Nitrogen Processing is marked as researched which allows me to produce ammonia from just nitrogen and hydrogen. This technology was locked or disabled until now. Furthermore I am able to make compressors instead of air filters which also is not intended I suppose. Can I somehow disable the technologies again which would make it almost too easy?

Huh? Ammonia also needs catalysts. What's wrong with that?

mrvn wrote:

Megatron wrote:I updated from Sea Block 0.2.1 or 0.2.0. Now Nitrogen Processing is marked as researched which allows me to produce ammonia from just nitrogen and hydrogen. This technology was locked or disabled until now. Furthermore I am able to make compressors instead of air filters which also is not intended I suppose. Can I somehow disable the technologies again which would make it almost too easy?

Huh? Ammonia also needs catalysts. What's wrong with that?

No, I meant the recipe without the catalysts for just 10 hydrogen and 24 nitrogen. The technology for this recipe is called "Nitrogen Processing" instead of the "Nitrogen Processing X" which unlock the more expensive recipes.
Usually this research was disabled but now its actually marked as research as are some others. This enables some of the very cheap recipes. I try not to use them if I spot the, but I rather have those techs disabled again.

I believe the cheap recipes come from Bob's Metals, and get replaced by Angel's mods.

EDIT: Screenshot

I don't have the cheap one. Maybe a mod setting hiding them? I vaguely remember something about hiding bobs fluids.

regarding wooden board discussion : if you think about it it seems reasonable to be more efficient to make WOODen boards from wood rather than paper ...

For seablock, at least at the beginning arboretums are a limited resource as you need to explore to find them and you probably already use them for power producing untill solar

By far the easiest way to mass produce wooden boards seems to be via Carbon and Naptha to synthetic wood.

It's rather amusing to think that the wooden boards are literally just circuits carved into blocks of wood. That being said, the main problem is the disconnect between the bio processing recipe for wooden boards, and the recipes for everything else.

The main "cheap" substrate in real life is phenolic paper, which is paper impregnated with resin. This apparently corresponds with the white phenolic board, but the brown aboard is apparently below even that. Yet the brown board has a recipe using paper, while the phenolic board uses wood.

I wonder if the eventual plan for bio processing would be to phase out the wood recipes for non-fiberglass boards and replace with paper. Either way, the paper recipes definitely need a re-balancing if they're going to a viable way of making circuit boards.

Finndibaenn wrote: For seablock, at least at the beginning arboretums are a limited resource as you need to explore to find them and you probably already use them for power producing untill solar

Farming is an extremely viable way to generate power and almost the same tech level as Aboterums, so there is really no problem with devoting most arboretum output to non-energy (until oil burners, you need charcoal to make solid fuel). My current SeaBlock is up to about 400MW supplied entirely by Diesel generators using Diesel fuel: the fuel oil is from farming and methane from hydrogen->synth gas, of course earlier I was just using straight fuel oil, mixing in methane was just an easy way to stretch the fuel oil by +50% (and the methane is mostly a byproduct of plastic/resin/rubber production). I'm only using about 40 farms to get enough fuel oil, the better farms with advanced technology yield about 10MW fuel value per farm. Less earlier of course, but even ~4MW fuel value per farm is quite impressive. (Basic arboretum produces 4.3MW fuel value if processed as far as charcoal, later this becomes 10.4MW with better wood recipe and processed to charcoal pellets).

I have 3 GW of Mk4 Steam Engines powered with enriched fuel blocks.
The fuel oil comes mainly from farming Elendilomone (no Aboterums needed). But also all the fuel oil as byproduct from crude oil processing.
The farming part is suprisingly small (while including some beacons). The steam engines itself take far more space.
But i'll check out the diesel generator.

Solar is of course build and forget, and dont bother with UPS.

live22morrow wrote:It's rather amusing to think that the wooden boards are literally just circuits carved into blocks of wood. That being said, the main problem is the disconnect between the bio processing recipe for wooden boards, and the recipes for everything else.

The main "cheap" substrate in real life is phenolic paper, which is paper impregnated with resin. This apparently corresponds with the white phenolic board, but the brown aboard is apparently below even that. Yet the brown board has a recipe using paper, while the phenolic board uses wood.

I wonder if the eventual plan for bio processing would be to phase out the wood recipes for non-fiberglass boards and replace with paper. Either way, the paper recipes definitely need a re-balancing if they're going to a viable way of making circuit boards.

from a historical point, i would not think it unlikely, that the early electronic circuits were actually made on (thin) wooden sheets. You start with wood and wires and move toward what you could consider a modern PCB. If there is an interest, i can inquire further into that.

Hello. How do i get sulfur on the beginning? Coal is patched out .... And now? I cant find a way to get it

Anhalter wrote:

live22morrow wrote:It's rather amusing to think that the wooden boards are literally just circuits carved into blocks of wood. That being said, the main problem is the disconnect between the bio processing recipe for wooden boards, and the recipes for everything else.

The main "cheap" substrate in real life is phenolic paper, which is paper impregnated with resin. This apparently corresponds with the white phenolic board, but the brown aboard is apparently below even that. Yet the brown board has a recipe using paper, while the phenolic board uses wood.

I wonder if the eventual plan for bio processing would be to phase out the wood recipes for non-fiberglass boards and replace with paper. Either way, the paper recipes definitely need a re-balancing if they're going to a viable way of making circuit boards.

from a historical point, i would not think it unlikely, that the early electronic circuits were actually made on (thin) wooden sheets. You start with wood and wires and move toward what you could consider a modern PCB. If there is an interest, i can inquire further into that.

At my university we have some very old "circuitry" in an exhibition. The pre plastic era stuff is mounted to wood. phenol-formaldehyde resin was invented 1907.