[1.0] Sea Block Pack 0.4.10

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Re: [0.17] Sea Block Pack 0.3.5

Post by jodokus31 »

NeuralParity wrote: ↑
Wed Jul 17, 2019 4:24 am
I'm doing a marathon game and I've found that even with mk2 algae and arboretums available to me, I'm still using algae1 for power. Tapping into the geode mineralised water for algae2 means I lose my long-term landfill production for once-off reduction in footprint, and the steel cost of arboretums mean that even taking into the landfill cost, algae1 is a cheaper source of power.

By the sound of it, I'll need wait for oil+farming tech before I can stop worrying about red-lining my power consumption and constantly browning out (yay for priority splitters and the lack of feedback in algae1).
Aboretums are not worth for power in marathon, because the iron requirement for saws uses a lot of energy already.
If you have geodes, you can produce more power with algae2, than the ore generating takes. But using it for landfill and spam algae1 might be another good way, too. I also had a lot of algae1, but it felt a bit boring. At least, its cheap enough.

I am pretty happy with my geodes-> mineral sludge -> crushed ore block, which has a big power plant from algae2. Its still producing more power, than my farming plant. It also delivers CO2 (wood pellets) for plastics/resin. Later I can rip off the power plant and and crystallize mineralized water to ores.

Imho landfill is not a long-term thing, you need more or less and eventually nothing. But I agree, its better to produce landfill from geodes directly, if you need it, than producing power and creating landfill from scratch. I just don't want to tie my ore production to landfill, which is distributed all over the place and can backup eventually.
mrvn wrote: ↑
Mon Jul 15, 2019 9:55 am
One thing I'm starting to realize is that buffering stuff for later screws the ratios.
Yes, its really satisfying to reduce buffering and it still works. This is what i like in seablock and esp. marathon. You need so much resources, that even a big buffer is tiny compared to overall consumption. And buffering is worse in seablock, because it uses precious energy, which could be used for more urgent things.

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Re: [0.17] Sea Block Pack 0.3.5

Post by BlueTemplar »

I try to not void anything in AB, considering it being part of the puzzle...
Of course, in SeaBlock I had to void both O2 and H2 early on, then only H2, and recently I even started buffering H2, as I I think that I finally saw a late-game outlet for it ? (this is 0.16)

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Re: [0.17] Sea Block Pack 0.3.5

Post by NeuralParity »

jodokus31 wrote: ↑
Wed Jul 17, 2019 1:34 pm
mrvn wrote: ↑
Mon Jul 15, 2019 9:55 am
One thing I'm starting to realize is that buffering stuff for later screws the ratios.
Yes, its really satisfying to reduce buffering and it still works. This is what i like in seablock and esp. marathon. You need so much resources, that even a big buffer is tiny compared to overall consumption. And buffering is worse in seablock, because it uses precious energy, which could be used for more urgent things.
Buffering only uses energy if you're overproducing. If you're buffering byproducts that you can't (yet) use then the cost is just the chests/warehouses/tanks needed to store them.

A good example of (somewhat) useful buffer in marathon is crystal dust before you can use it for anything. Geode crushed stone is the most power efficient source of ore (saph/sti from mineralised water), as well as the cheapest landfill source. I buffered hundreds of thousands of crystal dust before I had the tech to use it and I'm now feeding it back into my geode production whenever I don't need any landfill from the exess stone.

Other good examples of 'free' buffering are the excess copper ore you get from mineralised water ore production and the copious amount of lead ore you get trying to tech to combo sorting of gold.
jodokus31 wrote: ↑
Tue Jul 09, 2019 12:16 pm
Its nice for straight charcoal production for smelting and electronics
I found arboretums good for electronics since you can convert the wood directly to boards. Having to go via cellulose fibre and paper was massively power inefficient due to the huge number of assemblers required. Maybe it gets better at T2/T3 but at T1, wood is around 4x more power efficient.
Last edited by NeuralParity on Wed Jul 17, 2019 2:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: [0.17] Sea Block Pack 0.3.5

Post by NeuralParity »

jodokus31 wrote: ↑
Wed Jul 17, 2019 1:34 pm
Imho landfill is not a long-term thing, you need more or less and eventually nothing. But I agree, its better to produce landfill from geodes directly, if you need it, than producing power and creating landfill from scratch. I just don't want to tie my ore production to landfill, which is distributed all over the place and can backup eventually.
If you've got enough landfill, you can just overflow your geode mineralised water directly into saph/sti ore production. Geode mineralised water is the most power efficient ore production, you're just constrained to only those two ore in a fixed ratio, and having to deal with mountains of crystal dust if you try to do it directly (instead of just the overflow).

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Re: [0.17] Sea Block Pack 0.3.5

Post by jodokus31 »

BlueTemplar wrote: ↑
Wed Jul 17, 2019 1:59 pm
I try to not void anything in AB, considering it being part of the puzzle...
Of course, in SeaBlock I had to void both O2 and H2 early on, then only H2, and recently I even started buffering H2, as I I think that I finally saw a late-game outlet for it ? (this is 0.16)
Hydrogen is very useful for early plastic production (CO2 + H2 -> Methanol). And Ammonia
I decided to void stuff, if the logistic effort is too much and would haunt me later with UPS issues. It also raises the complexity to another level. Good luck :)
NeuralParity wrote: ↑
Wed Jul 17, 2019 2:23 pm
jodokus31 wrote: ↑
Wed Jul 17, 2019 1:34 pm
mrvn wrote: ↑
Mon Jul 15, 2019 9:55 am
One thing I'm starting to realize is that buffering stuff for later screws the ratios.
Yes, its really satisfying to reduce buffering and it still works. This is what i like in seablock and esp. marathon. You need so much resources, that even a big buffer is tiny compared to overall consumption. And buffering is worse in seablock, because it uses precious energy, which could be used for more urgent things.
Buffering only uses energy if you're overproducing. If you're buffering byproducts that you can't (yet) use then the cost is just the chests/warehouses/tanks needed to store them.

A good example of (somewhat) useful buffer in marathon is crystal dust before you can use it for anything. Geode crushed stone is the most power efficient source of ore (saph/sti from mineralised water), as well as the cheapest landfill source. I buffered hundreds of thousands of crystal dust before I had the tech to use it and I'm now feeding it back into my geode production whenever I don't need any landfill from the exess stone.

Other good examples of 'free' buffering are the excess copper ore you get from mineralised water ore production and the copious amount of lead ore you get trying to tech to combo sorting of gold.
Buffers can be useful, esp. for byproducts. My approach is to avoid them, if possible. But the copper or lead ore example is probably not avoidable. Crystal dust f.e. I direct insert only, no buffers, but your approach sounds interesting.
Regarding saphirite/stiratite from mineralized water, i don't have so much use for only these 2, because i use the ferric and cupric ore sorting, which uses more equal amounts of all ores.

NeuralParity wrote: ↑
Wed Jul 17, 2019 2:23 pm
jodokus31 wrote: ↑
Tue Jul 09, 2019 12:16 pm
Its nice for straight charcoal production for smelting and electronics
I found arboretums good for electronics since you can convert the wood directly to boards. Having to go via cellulose fibre and paper was massively power inefficient due to the huge number of assemblers required. Maybe it gets better at T2/T3 but at T1, wood is around 4x more power efficient.
Yes, arboretums are better for boards. Those paper lines are still awfully slow.

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Re: [0.17] Sea Block Pack 0.3.5

Post by NeuralParity »

jodokus31 wrote: ↑
Wed Jul 17, 2019 4:17 pm
Regarding saphirite/stiratite from mineralized water, i don't have so much use for only these 2, because i use the ferric and cupric ore sorting, which uses more equal amounts of all ores.
It's viable all the way to late game if you're only crystallising the excess mineralised water. Even ferric/cupric sorting need saph/sti so by preferentially consuming the mineralised water saph/sit you reduce the amount saph/sti you need to make from slurry thus stretching your slurry further. You would need to void the miineralised water overflow if you're doing something strange such as combo sorting for nothing but lead but, in general, you consume so much iron and copper that your overall saph/sti ore demand exceeds the 'bonus' ore you produce from the 6%(?) mineralised water excess that the charcoal geode crystallisation path produces.

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Re: [0.17] Sea Block Pack 0.3.5

Post by jodokus31 »

NeuralParity wrote: ↑
Thu Jul 18, 2019 12:17 am
jodokus31 wrote: ↑
Wed Jul 17, 2019 4:17 pm
Regarding saphirite/stiratite from mineralized water, i don't have so much use for only these 2, because i use the ferric and cupric ore sorting, which uses more equal amounts of all ores.
It's viable all the way to late game if you're only crystallising the excess mineralised water. Even ferric/cupric sorting need saph/sti so by preferentially consuming the mineralised water saph/sit you reduce the amount saph/sti you need to make from slurry thus stretching your slurry further. You would need to void the miineralised water overflow if you're doing something strange such as combo sorting for nothing but lead but, in general, you consume so much iron and copper that your overall saph/sti ore demand exceeds the 'bonus' ore you produce from the 6%(?) mineralised water excess that the charcoal geode crystallisation path produces.
Ok, then I misunderstood. I thought you crush geodes and only use crushed stone to produce saph/sit, while crystal dust sitting in warehouses. At least for a long period until tech to process is available. But that is maybe long before ferric/cupric is available and you only need a bit of tin/lead, which can be done with slag processing. Probably a matter, in which order tech are researched at the beginning. Have to check, when which geodes tech is available

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Re: [0.17] Sea Block Pack 0.3.5

Post by mrvn »

jodokus31 wrote: ↑
Thu Jul 18, 2019 8:22 am
NeuralParity wrote: ↑
Thu Jul 18, 2019 12:17 am
jodokus31 wrote: ↑
Wed Jul 17, 2019 4:17 pm
Regarding saphirite/stiratite from mineralized water, i don't have so much use for only these 2, because i use the ferric and cupric ore sorting, which uses more equal amounts of all ores.
It's viable all the way to late game if you're only crystallising the excess mineralised water. Even ferric/cupric sorting need saph/sti so by preferentially consuming the mineralised water saph/sit you reduce the amount saph/sti you need to make from slurry thus stretching your slurry further. You would need to void the miineralised water overflow if you're doing something strange such as combo sorting for nothing but lead but, in general, you consume so much iron and copper that your overall saph/sti ore demand exceeds the 'bonus' ore you produce from the 6%(?) mineralised water excess that the charcoal geode crystallisation path produces.
Ok, then I misunderstood. I thought you crush geodes and only use crushed stone to produce saph/sit, while crystal dust sitting in warehouses. At least for a long period until tech to process is available. But that is maybe long before ferric/cupric is available and you only need a bit of tin/lead, which can be done with slag processing. Probably a matter, in which order tech are researched at the beginning. Have to check, when which geodes tech is available
That is indeed what he's talking about. You get washing plants first, then geodes and last the filtration to mineral sludge. So while you research the next techs you can already use the washing plants and crush geodes. Weather that is before or after ferric/cupric depends on what you research first.

I'm using ferric/cupric too but not as much as I want too. I need all the iron ore I can get but at the start only molten iron uses manganese so that quickly backs up. A lot of iron goes into steel. Later you can use manganese for molten steel and molten alluminium (that's as far as I've build so far). But I don't think you can ever get all your iron from ferric ore. It's worse for copper/tin for me. I'm using nearly exclusively basic transport belts (black) and trains so there is no tin requirement there. And given how slow my blue science is at the moment the red/green science are slow too. So tin is backed up and cupric ore processing stops.

My main source of mineral sludge is from geode crushing with has an excess of crushed stone and sulfuric waste water. One option would be to create crystal sludge from geodes directly balance with crushing geodes so you produce only as much mineralized water as needed for the filtering. I went the other way and put the excess crushes stone into a train.

I'm using LTN with priorities for various stations. So the crushed stone goes to train stops for landfill, stone (+ stone bricks + straight and underground stone pipes) and entities (like rails) with equal priority and last crystallization through mineralized water. The same station also requests mineralized water directly that is produced from sulfuric waste water processing and the chunk production. So I have a buffer of about 80k landfill and 32k stone (+ 8k stone bricks + 400 stone pipes each) before the overflow goes into crystallization to ores. That sounds like a lot but it fills up quickly. So the crystallization is very much needed when you aren't spaming landfill everywhere anymore.

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Re: [0.17] Sea Block Pack 0.3.5

Post by BlueTemplar »

NeuralParity wrote: ↑
Wed Jul 17, 2019 2:23 pm
Buffering only uses energy if you're overproducing. If you're buffering byproducts that you can't (yet) use then the cost is just the chests/warehouses/tanks needed to store them.

A good example of (somewhat) useful buffer in marathon is crystal dust before you can use it for anything. Geode crushed stone is the most power efficient source of ore (saph/sti from mineralised water), as well as the cheapest landfill source. I buffered hundreds of thousands of crystal dust before I had the tech to use it and I'm now feeding it back into my geode production whenever I don't need any landfill from the exess stone.
Ok, this is not Sea Block, but I can't help but post this :
16330442.png
16330442.png (22.27 MiB) Viewed 2290 times
As you can see, I have a bit of a buffer problem, especially for H2 and geodes ! :lol:
Since then, though, I got the pressure tanks (and brass chests, as can already be seen n the screenshot), which has solved the issue, at least temporarily...

However, it would seem that geodes to ore is actually worse (pollution-wise) than straight infinite ore mining... so I spent extra pollution on producing mud from them for naught !
(Well, at least, unlike for miners, I can easily choose the location of that pollution, I might be able to do something with that...)

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Re: [0.17] Sea Block Pack 0.3.5

Post by jodokus31 »

mrvn wrote: ↑
Thu Jul 18, 2019 9:31 am
I'm using ferric/cupric too but not as much as I want too. I need all the iron ore I can get but at the start only molten iron uses manganese so that quickly backs up. A lot of iron goes into steel. Later you can use manganese for molten steel and molten alluminium (that's as far as I've build so far). But I don't think you can ever get all your iron from ferric ore. It's worse for copper/tin for me. I'm using nearly exclusively basic transport belts (black) and trains so there is no tin requirement there. And given how slow my blue science is at the moment the red/green science are slow too. So tin is backed up and cupric ore processing stops.
I don't see any problem, if you have to fill iron / copper with pure sorting. But i think you save ores in the long run.
I even setup ferric and cupric second stage to get nickel and silicon. I checked my finished non-marathon game in 0.16 and i needed copper : tin : silicon ore in roughly about this ratio 4:2:1. (23M : 11M : 5M). cupric ratio is 3:2:1, so i have to fill a bit
For ferric, nickel was used a lot less. But its just a small addition. Here it was iron : manganese : nickel (18M : 11M : 1,1M)
Don't know, if its worth the additional lubricant, but at least its interesting...
BlueTemplar wrote: ↑
Thu Jul 18, 2019 10:12 am
Ok, this is not Sea Block, but I can't help but post this
Holy... are playing death world? :D

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Re: [0.17] Sea Block Pack 0.3.5

Post by BlueTemplar »

Rampant Death World :twisted:
(I had to force the biters on pacific though, as I couldn't keep up with the pheromone spread... :(
But soon, my defenses are going to be ready ! 8-) )

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Re: [0.17] Sea Block Pack 0.3.5

Post by NeuralParity »

jodokus31 wrote: ↑
Thu Jul 18, 2019 8:22 am
Ok, then I misunderstood. I thought you crush geodes and only use crushed stone to produce saph/sit, while crystal dust sitting in warehouses. At least for a long period until tech to process is available. But that is maybe long before ferric/cupric is available and you only need a bit of tin/lead, which can be done with slag processing. Probably a matter, in which order tech are researched at the beginning. Have to check, when which geodes tech is available
Sorry, I was a bit unclear, I meant each of them at different times.
stage 1: crush geode, use mineralised water for saph/sti. Lasts until the next geode tech which on marathon is a non-trivial amount of time. Also a very cheap source of landfill so you're much less physically constrained if you do this. Massive stockpile of crystal dust created (~100 wooden chests)
stage 2: crystal slurry, overflow the 6% into saph/sti and/or landfill.

ferric comes much later.

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Re: [0.17] Sea Block Pack 0.3.5

Post by jodokus31 »

NeuralParity wrote: ↑
Sat Jul 20, 2019 1:24 am
Sorry, I was a bit unclear, I meant each of them at different times.
stage 1: crush geode, use mineralised water for saph/sti. Lasts until the next geode tech which on marathon is a non-trivial amount of time. Also a very cheap source of landfill so you're much less physically constrained if you do this. Massive stockpile of crystal dust created (~100 wooden chests)
stage 2: crystal slurry, overflow the 6% into saph/sti and/or landfill.

ferric comes much later.
In my current play through, I missed the part, where you can crush geodes, but not use the crystal dust. If I ever start new (which hopefully is in far future), i'll consider it. It could speed up the painful start. Thanks for the hints.
BlueTemplar wrote: ↑
Thu Jul 18, 2019 3:43 pm
Rampant Death World :twisted:
Oh, crap :) I enjoy the peace in seablock. I have my dose of biters from my slow vanilla marathon deathworld (with reduced pollution evolution per time, I don't like to rush it)
Last edited by jodokus31 on Sat Jul 20, 2019 1:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: [0.17] Sea Block Pack 0.3.5

Post by BlueTemplar »

I think you mean evolution from time? Yeah, it's perhaps a bit too high in Death World, compared to the other contributions... (and so becomes its Rampant equivalent, pheromone spread with evolution).
And, yeah, I tend to switch from Sea Block to Death World, depending whether I want to deal with biters or have some peace !

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Re: [0.17] Sea Block Pack 0.3.5

Post by jodokus31 »

BlueTemplar wrote: ↑
Sat Jul 20, 2019 12:53 pm
I think you mean evolution from time? Yeah, it's perhaps a bit too high in Death World, compared to the other contributions... (and so becomes its Rampant equivalent, pheromone spread with evolution).
Yes, i like the biter settings as challenge, but unproductive times and running around and fixing turrets and walls is not so punishing. I did it once in 0.16 and it was just too much stress :P

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Re: [0.17] Sea Block Pack 0.3.5

Post by BlueTemplar »

Though I also use Vlad's Auto Time, it helps a lot !
(And with combat too ! :P )

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Re: [0.17] Sea Block Pack 0.3.5

Post by NeuralParity »

So are any of you fellow marathon players running a 'clean' SeaBlock, or are you also cheating the walking around by using long reach/squeak through? I'm only about 1/3 the way through green science and I'm already at the point where even maxed out long reach won't reach from one side of my base to the other.

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Re: [0.17] Sea Block Pack 0.3.5

Post by mrvn »

NeuralParity wrote: ↑
Mon Jul 22, 2019 5:16 am
So are any of you fellow marathon players running a 'clean' SeaBlock, or are you also cheating the walking around by using long reach/squeak through? I'm only about 1/3 the way through green science and I'm already at the point where even maxed out long reach won't reach from one side of my base to the other.
Personally I can't live without ght-bluebuild and the blueprint lab anymore. I don't mind the running around so much and I build gaps into all my designs so I can squeak through naturally (well except for at the start when you really don't have the landfill for it).

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Re: [0.17] Sea Block Pack 0.3.5

Post by arrowcircle »

Is there are any known ways to fix seablock with latest factorio version?

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Re: [0.17] Sea Block Pack 0.3.5

Post by mrvn »

arrowcircle wrote: ↑
Mon Jul 22, 2019 9:48 am
Is there are any known ways to fix seablock with latest factorio version?
And what is there to fix?

If it's broken I certainly don't want to try updating.

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