[1.0] Sea Block Pack 0.4.10

[Blokus]

It would be nice if we could get rid of the various "electrolysis" research items along with the unused "electrolyzer" 1-4 recipes.

Bob electrolyzers do get used later in the game (for example in lithium processing). It's a little annoying that you unlock them before they're useful, though.

[dorthak]

This has likely been asked already, but please forgive me for not reading through 57 pages - I did check the last few. I'm trying to figure out if this pack has been upgraded for 0.17. Is the file "SeaBlockPack_0.3.1.zip" linked on page 56 the current version? Does it work with 0.17? There's nothing in the first post about it, and I couldn't find anything definitive one way or the other.

Thanks.

Yes - you should have read just above that
viewtopic.php?p=414003#p414003

Sigh. Yes, I should have.

Thanks!

[JacksonMacKenzie]

It would be nice if we could get rid of the various "electrolysis" research items along with the unused "electrolyzer" 1-4 recipes.

Bob electrolyzers do get used later in the game (for example in lithium processing). It's a little annoying that you unlock them before they're useful, though.

Is there any real reason why the recipes used by Bob's electrolyzers couldn't be moved to Angel's? Ditto chemical plants?

[jodokus31]

It would be nice if we could get rid of the various "electrolysis" research items along with the unused "electrolyzer" 1-4 recipes.

Bob electrolyzers do get used later in the game (for example in lithium processing). It's a little annoying that you unlock them before they're useful, though.

Is there any real reason why the recipes used by Bob's electrolyzers couldn't be moved to Angel's? Ditto chemical plants?

Bobs mods and Angels mods are pretty different overhaul mods, which also can be played standalone. But they complement each other pretty well and are often used together. There are some minor quirks remaining, which don't harm much. At least for me.

[JacksonMacKenzie]

It would be nice if we could get rid of the various "electrolysis" research items along with the unused "electrolyzer" 1-4 recipes.

Bob electrolyzers do get used later in the game (for example in lithium processing). It's a little annoying that you unlock them before they're useful, though.

Is there any real reason why the recipes used by Bob's electrolyzers couldn't be moved to Angel's? Ditto chemical plants?

Bobs mods and Angels mods are pretty different overhaul mods, which also can be played standalone. But they complement each other pretty well and are often used together. There are some minor quirks remaining, which don't harm much. At least for me.

I meant for the purpose of Sea Block; as Sea Block incorporates both, it seems to me that reconciling their discrepancies would be worth doing. I don't know thing one about how to do it or how difficult it would be, however. Hence the question.

[jdtunn]

As orzelek mentioned, you don't necessarily need for inserters to be able to grab from the fastest belt.
(Or you could also use loaders, or assembly lines...)

It's a pity Assembly Line hasn't been updated to 0.17 yet.

[BlueTemplar]

You could try just changing the version in the root .json ?

IMHO the mod authors that try to update (but especially publish !) their mods to 0.17 while it's not stable yet are a bit crazy...

[Ommand]

It would be nice if we could get rid of the various "electrolysis" research items along with the unused "electrolyzer" 1-4 recipes.

Bob electrolyzers do get used later in the game (for example in lithium processing). It's a little annoying that you unlock them before they're useful, though.

Is there any real reason why the recipes used by Bob's electrolyzers couldn't be moved to Angel's? Ditto chemical plants?

Bobs mods and Angels mods are pretty different overhaul mods, which also can be played standalone. But they complement each other pretty well and are often used together. There are some minor quirks remaining, which don't harm much. At least for me.

I meant for the purpose of Sea Block; as Sea Block incorporates both, it seems to me that reconciling their discrepancies would be worth doing. I don't know thing one about how to do it or how difficult it would be, however. Hence the question.

This is kinda what I was thinking. Other recipes are already being messed with, it would make sense to disable and/or modify things that overlap.

[epicwhoop]

Hi guys,
I'm having troubles to even activating the mod. I downloaded version 0.3.1 and placed it in C:/Users/%USERNAME%/AppData/Roaming/Factorio/mods
I use the steam version and have activated the 0.17.x latest beta branch but when I open factorio and go to mods, I can see all my mods except for the Sea Block mod. Any help is greatly appreciated

[boran_blok]

Epic, the sea block is a mod pack, you have to extract it and that places a whole lot of other zip files (the mods themselves)

[epicwhoop]

Oh damn, my brain failed me, after reading your answer it was instantly clear, thank you!

[jodokus31]

Bob electrolyzers do get used later in the game (for example in lithium processing). It's a little annoying that you unlock them before they're useful, though.

Is there any real reason why the recipes used by Bob's electrolyzers couldn't be moved to Angel's? Ditto chemical plants?

Bobs mods and Angels mods are pretty different overhaul mods, which also can be played standalone. But they complement each other pretty well and are often used together. There are some minor quirks remaining, which don't harm much. At least for me.

I meant for the purpose of Sea Block; as Sea Block incorporates both, it seems to me that reconciling their discrepancies would be worth doing. I don't know thing one about how to do it or how difficult it would be, however. Hence the question.

This is kinda what I was thinking. Other recipes are already being messed with, it would make sense to disable and/or modify things that overlap.

Somebody would have to do and maintain it, which is a lot of work considering the steady changes of the other mods. I can follow, that only game-breaking and crucial balancing issues are changed in the scope of Seablock to ensure playability

[Ommand]

Anyone done the math on the new arboretums? Still worth while for power production?

[randomdude]

Hey Trainwreck,

I was checking out the marathon mode the other day, and to my knowledge, the way recipes are right now, its more efficient to sit tight and research away until you get slag processing and can move out of mineralized water than to try and build your way out of it faster.

That is mainly to the cost of iron for the steam engines (100 plates each)



This picture shows everything required to expand your net power in about 2MW (barring some things that will be spread over many of these builds, like liquifiers for dioxide and mineralized water, or the assembler for bricks, and assuming both wood processing and basic chemistry are done, which are a big if)

Of the 476 plates to make this, ~50-60% comes out of only the engines. Bear in mind that the 316 plates required is almost the same that every research requires (80 packs * 4 iron each) and that at this stages we are talking about 4-10 plates/min

Now, i understand this is marathon and its gonna cost a lot, but IMO, reducing the cost of the steam engines (and maybe assemblers and pumps, that require 40 plates each) to 50% or 75% would make building and doing stuff useful rather than just making the early stage longer by like 6-10 hours or just sit tight for the time the researches take to complete

Thanks

EDIT: Another way to improve this would be to give more starting iron/resources, so you can reach a better place, but then making ramping up still as hard as right now, as the recipes will stay the same

[minno]

Is making oil from blue algae supposed to be sulfur-positive now? It goes 100 sulfuric waste water => 40 blue algae => 20 blue cellulose fiber => 200 multi-phase oil + 120 sulfuric waste water -> 140 crude oil + 20 more sulfuric waste water. That's a gain of 40 units along with the oil that it produces.

[mrvn]

Sounds like you have non-speed overhaul numbers ?

What is your "Belt speed per tier" set to ?
viewtopic.php?p=394392#p394392

The speed in the mod settings is 12.5 and the overhaul options are on.

These settings are overridden in "A Sea Block Config_0.3.0". So its always: 7.5 grey, 15 yellow, 30 red, 45 blue, 60 purple and 75 green.
Also the underground length is always 3 grey(jumps 2 tiles), 5 yellow, 7 red, etc.
So I think, it's working as intended

Hey, nice, those are exactly the settings that I would have picked (both for speed and length) !
(Though that would be for a normal Bob's game - I'm considering whether 7.5 - 15 - 30 - 60 - 120 - 240 wouldn't be more appropriate in Sea Block, considering what the end game seems to entail ?)

I find 7.5 is a bad number. It's really low. Only 3.75 items/s per side. The ratios it forms with recipes are very bad. I think 12 would be a much better number. Most recipes need an integer amount and 12 nicely divides by 1, 2, 3, 4, 6. I didn't minds Bobs 12.5 value as hat gives a bit of speed buffer. Just pretend it is 12 and the 0.5 reserve will help compress the belts and smooth over minor gaps.

As for increasing the high speed belts: I never used the higher tires much. Way to expensive and it's easier to build 2 smaller factories with lower tire belts than one big one with highly expensive belts. I mainly use faster belts to update existing setups from mk1 to mk2. So mk1 something with grey belts becomes mk2 somethings with yellow belts. There usually aren't enough mkX updates to get to really high tires of belts.

[Blokus]

It would be nice if we could get rid of the various "electrolysis" research items along with the unused "electrolyzer" 1-4 recipes.

Bob electrolyzers do get used later in the game (for example in lithium processing). It's a little annoying that you unlock them before they're useful, though.

Is there any real reason why the recipes used by Bob's electrolyzers couldn't be moved to Angel's? Ditto chemical plants?

You could, but for whatever reason Angel didn't do that. There are quite a few seams like this scattered around, to be honest; for example, the only way to make copper-tungsten or tungsten carbide is by using Bob's buildings. Angel just gives an alternate form of tungsten to put into those same machines. There is no Angel's Smelting counterpart.

It would be nice if we could get rid of the various "electrolysis" research items along with the unused "electrolyzer" 1-4 recipes.

Bob electrolyzers do get used later in the game (for example in lithium processing). It's a little annoying that you unlock them before they're useful, though.

Is there any real reason why the recipes used by Bob's electrolyzers couldn't be moved to Angel's? Ditto chemical plants?

Bobs mods and Angels mods are pretty different overhaul mods, which also can be played standalone. But they complement each other pretty well and are often used together. There are some minor quirks remaining, which don't harm much. At least for me.

I meant for the purpose of Sea Block; as Sea Block incorporates both, it seems to me that reconciling their discrepancies would be worth doing. I don't know thing one about how to do it or how difficult it would be, however. Hence the question.

My impression is that Trainwreck tries not to directly change Bob/Angel's actual work very much, usually preferring to just add stuff on top of it except where it is required (for example, increasing the sulfuric waste from charcoal filtering so the loop is positive). Maybe he can comment on his philosophy in this regard.

[BlueTemplar]

Sounds like you have non-speed overhaul numbers ?

What is your "Belt speed per tier" set to ?
viewtopic.php?p=394392#p394392

The speed in the mod settings is 12.5 and the overhaul options are on.

These settings are overridden in "A Sea Block Config_0.3.0". So its always: 7.5 grey, 15 yellow, 30 red, 45 blue, 60 purple and 75 green.
Also the underground length is always 3 grey(jumps 2 tiles), 5 yellow, 7 red, etc.
So I think, it's working as intended

Hey, nice, those are exactly the settings that I would have picked (both for speed and length) !
(Though that would be for a normal Bob's game - I'm considering whether 7.5 - 15 - 30 - 60 - 120 - 240 wouldn't be more appropriate in Sea Block, considering what the end game seems to entail ?)

I find 7.5 is a bad number. It's really low. Only 3.75 items/s per side. The ratios it forms with recipes are very bad. I think 12 would be a much better number. Most recipes need an integer amount and 12 nicely divides by 1, 2, 3, 4, 6. I didn't minds Bobs 12.5 value as hat gives a bit of speed buffer. Just pretend it is 12 and the 0.5 reserve will help compress the belts and smooth over minor gaps.

As for increasing the high speed belts: I never used the higher tires much. Way to expensive and it's easier to build 2 smaller factories with lower tire belts than one big one with highly expensive belts. I mainly use faster belts to update existing setups from mk1 to mk2. So mk1 something with grey belts becomes mk2 somethings with yellow belts. There usually aren't enough mkX updates to get to really high tires of belts.

The 0.17 vanilla yellow belt's 7.5 items/s/lane corresponds to the "roundest" belt speed of 1 pixel/s with the new item densities :
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=68569
I don't know if it's possible to make it rounder for recipes, but if you want to make a proposition, you'll have to tell what item densities on belt you suggest !
(As for the pixels per tile, it's probably way too late to change that by now...)

I also disagree that 3.75 items/s/lane is too low : that's already 15 burner drills and 12 stone furnaces per lane ! (EDIT : that's for vanilla smelting, but I'm expecting for early Sea Block to not have issues either, will check the values...)

And as you mention, there should be at least *some* incentive to use the higher tiers of belts !
(So, yeah, maybe more like 7.5 (for both lanes) - 15 - 22.5 - 30 - 45 - 90 for Sea Block?)

We have the same issue with Bob's adjustable inserters : vanilla inserters are already pretty fast, angel's large buildings make them even faster per building, and setting them to low angles makes the higher tiers of inserters very rarely needed... (until the end of Sea Block?)

[Blokus]

Is making oil from blue algae supposed to be sulfur-positive now? It goes 100 sulfuric waste water => 40 blue algae => 20 blue cellulose fiber => 200 multi-phase oil + 120 sulfuric waste water -> 140 crude oil + 20 more sulfuric waste water. That's a gain of 40 units along with the oil that it produces.

If this is actually a thing this is a quite serious bug. It sounds like the return from steam cracking blue algae yield got doubled somehow?

[jodokus31]

I was checking out the marathon mode the other day, and to my knowledge, the way recipes are right now, its more efficient to sit tight and research away until you get slag processing and can move out of mineralized water than to try and build your way out of it faster.

That is mainly to the cost of iron for the steam engines (100 plates each)

In 0.16 marathon mode, mineral sludge was not any better compared to mineralized water in terms of energy consumption. Need to check it in 0.17
My take was to rush iron smelting at first, before automation, because of the higher iron yield. (Took about 4 hours, mainly because of steel). After that, green algae was only a little help, before arboretums. I reached arboretums at hour 30.

Now, with green algae buffed, it seems, that it makes sense to get charcoal and scale green algae first by using minimal amount of belts, but this makes the cost of steam engines worse. Tip: To save iron, burner crushers are very cheap and fuel lasts long.
I agree, that steam engines, belts and assemblers are very costly.
Also, arboretums don't seem to have any benefit for power, because the iron required for sawblades is not really worth in marathon. Not sure.
All in all, I think, it's still better to scale in 0.17 than in 0.16. Need to try it.

EDIT: Also, its a bit sad, that mk2 power has no efficiency advantage. I hope Bob will do something about it.