[0.16] Sea Block Pack 0.2.12

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Re: [0.16] Sea Block Pack 0.2.6

Postby roax206 » Wed Apr 11, 2018 1:07 pm

mrvn wrote:
live22morrow wrote:
roax206 wrote:This has been bugging me for a while but is there any real point in the advanced solder smelting tech line? The starter recipe which only uses assemblers and metal mixing furnaces gives a 1:2 ingot input to solder output ratio and even the tier 3 smelting tech gives a 7:16 ingot input to soldier output ratio with the tier 2 matching the starter ratio albeit without the trace amounts or resin or aginic acid. The techs are not used by any others as far as I know and generally the infrastructure required for the higher tiers of solder smelting in much more than the starting recipe, and while the possible throughput is particularly high even steel has been fixed to noticeably bias the smelting line.


Advanced solder smelting is much more energy efficient than the furnace recipes. From just the tin/lead ingots, these are my computed energy costs for a single solder.

Solder (Alginic Acid): 237kj

Solder (Resin): around 170kj (kind of hard to model the cost of resin)

Solder smelting 2: 31kj

Solder is a high demand product, so any reduction in energy consumption will be worth it in the long run.


What you really need to use is the solder coils. I think there is a bug there because unlike all the other coil recipes the solder coils give you twice the yield. I mentioned it on the Angels mods forum but so far it hasn't been changed.

As for energy efficiency I find that I totally ignore that. It's not like you need a million solder a second. Using up less ores on the other hand
(by a factor of 2) is a major save on the whole geode or slag processing loop that produces the raw ores. That will easily save more energy than those 200kj I think.


I was talking about the soldier coils when I mentioned the tier 2 and 3 techs as the recipes are generally 2 ingots per coil which creates 4 solder producing the same yield ratio as the alginic acid method. I realise that the throughput is higher but given that using electrolysers the energy cost of just the slag for a single unsorted ore is 1.5MJ (2.5 slag produced at a rate of 1 every 2 seconds at 300KW) so resource efficiency generally means power efficiency.
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Re: [0.16] Sea Block Pack 0.2.6

Postby live22morrow » Wed Apr 11, 2018 8:00 pm

roax206 wrote:I was talking about the soldier coils when I mentioned the tier 2 and 3 techs as the recipes are generally 2 ingots per coil which creates 4 solder producing the same yield ratio as the alginic acid method. I realise that the throughput is higher but given that using electrolysers the energy cost of just the slag for a single unsorted ore is 1.5MJ (2.5 slag produced at a rate of 1 every 2 seconds at 300KW) so resource efficiency generally means power efficiency.


Yeah, that's why the higher level strand casting recipes are worth it. Even though it takes a good amount of energy to make and recycle coolant, you basically save 2 ingots every time, so it's definitely worth it. For solder though, there's also space efficiency to think of, since the furnace recipes need induction furnaces and casting machines for both the tin and lead. Not to mention the space taken up by the algae farms to make the alginic acid (though you might be able to just skim some resin off from your existing setup). The regular recipes without strand casting definitely isn't worth it though.
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Re: [0.16] Sea Block Pack 0.2.6

Postby LastElf » Thu Apr 12, 2018 2:17 am

So I'm up to steel tier in 0.2.6 and I'm trying to math everything out in Helmod right now. I'm starting with pure sorting, just one tier 2 sorter of iron, copper, tin and lead. The calculations come out that I need 60 Electrolyzer 2's. I've heard about using crystal slurry instead but that needs a ridiculous amount of stone for the mineral water, which crushed from slag is just as crazy, and I don't get the positive sulphur loop (Using ceramics at least).

Am I missing a recipe in a tech I don't have yet or do you really need this many electrolyzers?
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Re: [0.16] Sea Block Pack 0.2.6

Postby live22morrow » Thu Apr 12, 2018 3:34 am

LastElf wrote:So I'm up to steel tier in 0.2.6 and I'm trying to math everything out in Helmod right now. I'm starting with pure sorting, just one tier 2 sorter of iron, copper, tin and lead. The calculations come out that I need 60 Electrolyzer 2's. I've heard about using crystal slurry instead but that needs a ridiculous amount of stone for the mineral water, which crushed from slag is just as crazy, and I don't get the positive sulphur loop (Using ceramics at least).

Am I missing a recipe in a tech I don't have yet or do you really need this many electrolyzers?


The crystal dust recipes make enough stone for the process to be self sufficient if you use charcoal filtering. If you use ceramic filtering it's negative, but there isn't that much loss if you hydro refine all your ores for more waste water. I think it's somewhere around 3 mineral water per ore that you lose.
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Re: [0.16] Sea Block Pack 0.2.6

Postby pjf » Thu Apr 12, 2018 3:39 am

Am I missing a recipe in a tech I don't have yet or do you really need this many electrolyzers?


If you want to run four sorters at 100% capacity, then yes, that would require a require a lot of electrolyzers. Sixty doesn't sound unreasonable.

It's worth noting that ores produce crushed stone before you pop them into the sorter, so your mineralised water doesn't have to all come from slag. I don't think my base is using any crushed slag any more, because the crushed stone from ores is so much, but I'm also using a mix of slag and crystal slurries; I suspect long-term keeping those in balance is going to be optimal.

I've got too much sulphur in my base at the moment, most of which are coming from washing plants which I'm running for my tree farm power plants, although I still use charcoal for filtering because I've got a great energy surplus at the moment. (Tree-farms are really great power generators.)
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Re: [0.16] Sea Block Pack 0.2.6

Postby LastElf » Thu Apr 12, 2018 4:11 am

pjf wrote:
Am I missing a recipe in a tech I don't have yet or do you really need this many electrolyzers?


If you want to run four sorters at 100% capacity, then yes, that would require a require a lot of electrolyzers. Sixty doesn't sound unreasonable.

It's worth noting that ores produce crushed stone before you pop them into the sorter, so your mineralised water doesn't have to all come from slag. I don't think my base is using any crushed slag any more, because the crushed stone from ores is so much, but I'm also using a mix of slag and crystal slurries; I suspect long-term keeping those in balance is going to be optimal.


I was only getting 8 crushed stone out from the 180 stone that would have to go in to make that much mineral water (Helmod says 1000 mineral water / second for 450 sludge for pure sorting). How are you processing them to get so much stone?

pjf wrote:I've got too much sulphur in my base at the moment, most of which are coming from washing plants which I'm running for my tree farm power plants, although I still use charcoal for filtering because I've got a great energy surplus at the moment. (Tree-farms are really great power generators.)


I'm personally going eggplants > raw vegetable oil > vegetable oil to nutrient paste > fuel oil > solid fuel, and vegetable oil > fuel oil > solid fuel. I just don't know what to do with these vats of mineral oil I'm getting cause I can't synth it for ages and I can't void it. Production Stats says I'm getting 100 solid fuel production a minute and only using 22 of it to run my 6-10mw base (Depends on backlog).
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Re: [0.16] Sea Block Pack 0.2.6

Postby pjf » Thu Apr 12, 2018 5:00 am

I was only getting 8 crushed stone out from the 180 stone that would have to go in to make that much mineral water (Helmod says 1000 mineral water / second for 450 sludge for pure sorting). How are you processing them to get so much stone?


Oh! You can also crush the geodes before dissolving them, which also gives you crushed stone.

I think the real thing which is happening is that I'm not running things at anywhere near 100% capacity,and my backbone is still using about ~16-20 electrolysers to make slag which gets turned into slurry. My geode plants are just getting running, with a couple of dedicated washers plus some extras from floatation plants.

The solid fuel from fuel-oil sounds great! I honestly forgot I could do that, and held-off on fuel oil production until I got electric motors and oil-burning generators (which use up a tiny bit of the mineral oil in lubricant).

As an aside, the oil-burning generators seem to accept and void any kind of liquid, so even if base mineral oil doesn't have a fuel value you can still use them for disposal.
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Re: [0.16] Sea Block Pack 0.2.6

Postby LastElf » Thu Apr 12, 2018 5:35 am

pjf wrote:I think the real thing which is happening is that I'm not running things at anywhere near 100% capacity,and my backbone is still using about ~16-20 electrolysers to make slag which gets turned into slurry. My geode plants are just getting running, with a couple of dedicated washers plus some extras from floatation plants.

The solid fuel from fuel-oil sounds great! I honestly forgot I could do that, and held-off on fuel oil production until I got electric motors and oil-burning generators (which use up a tiny bit of the mineral oil in lubricant).

As an aside, the oil-burning generators seem to accept and void any kind of liquid, so even if base mineral oil doesn't have a fuel value you can still use them for disposal.


Yeah, I think I'm going to set up 20-30 slag just to at least get an initial bus running to at least get me to 1sps completely automated and a starter mall to finish science 2. I'm still a while away from oil burners but I'll keep it in mind.

I started fuel oil before the tree farms were added in 0.2.6. Eggplant possibly isn't the best choice because of byproducts getting the pips, but it works for now. 12 farms run 1 vegetable oil filter which supplies ~100 solid fuel a minute with some charcoal manually supplied and some purging of crystal dust until it can be processed.
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Re: [0.16] Sea Block Pack 0.2.6

Postby live22morrow » Thu Apr 12, 2018 6:18 am

In general, it takes around 3 slag to get one ore (like iron or tin), so for a mk2 electrolyser, which takes 4 second to produce 3 slag, that's the time it takes to make the equivalent of one iron ore. So it would take 16*4=64 electrolysers to produce enough slag for 16 ore per second. (actually in this case its around 2.8 slag per ore so it's actually 60 electrolysers)
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Re: [0.16] Sea Block Pack 0.2.6

Postby mrvn » Thu Apr 12, 2018 9:03 am

live22morrow wrote:
mrvn wrote:I use the cupric ore too. But I undid the change for transport belts to need steel and kept it needing tin. So that is a great sink for tin and a huge relieve for the iron production.

If you take away the transport belts as tin sink then you are left with tined copper wire and solder. Not enough to balance the copper I fear.
But don't abandon cupric ore. Just suplement it with the basic ore sortings that give iron+copper and pure copper ore sorting.


Do you also use the inserter overhaul? Personally, I find it to be a nice difficulty balance. Especially with how it forces me to use the slower yellow and red inserters in my early setups, rather than jumping straight to blue. And it makes the late game inserters actually expensive.


I do. But I also use Deadlocks loaders and stackers. I use tons of black belts with stacked items. That's already 50 items/s throughput so yellow belts aren't even needed for long distances.
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Re: [0.16] Sea Block Pack 0.2.6

Postby Cardoyle » Thu Apr 12, 2018 9:26 am

pjf wrote:

The solid fuel from fuel-oil sounds great! I honestly forgot I could do that, and held-off on fuel oil production until I got electric motors and oil-burning generators (which use up a tiny bit of the mineral oil in lubricant).

As an aside, the oil-burning generators seem to accept and void any kind of liquid, so even if base mineral oil doesn't have a fuel value you can still use them for disposal.


Once you get a bit of Blue science you can also convert the fuel oil into liquid fuel(1 to 1) which can make enriched fuel blocks, which turns 1 fuel oil into 3.3333MJ of energy. Turning fuel oil into solid fuel is roughly 1 fuel oil = 1MJ of energy(Probably a bit less as not included the charcoal you need).

Disclaimer: The calculations did not take into account any power needed to run the machines
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Re: [0.16] Sea Block Pack 0.2.6

Postby freakness » Thu Apr 12, 2018 5:02 pm

I get the following error when loading the modpack. I think I installed all the mods that are in the list and no other mods that are not in the list, I double checked this but there is still the chance that I'm becoming retarded I guess.. :?

Any idea how I can resolve this :) I'd like to play

Image

edit: the KS_power just updated to a new version, might be related. downgrading the mod back to 0.2.2 fixed the issue.
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Re: [0.16] Sea Block Pack 0.2.6

Postby Klonan » Thu Apr 12, 2018 7:27 pm

freakness wrote:I get the following error when loading the modpack. I think I installed all the mods that are in the list and no other mods that are not in the list, I double checked this but there is still the chance that I'm becoming retarded I guess.. :?

Any idea how I can resolve this :) I'd like to play

Image

edit: the KS_power just updated to a new version, might be related. downgrading the mod back to 0.2.2 fixed the issue.


Should be fixed now
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Re: [0.16] Sea Block Pack 0.2.6

Postby Lastmerlin » Mon Apr 16, 2018 11:41 am

Just started and created 2 fast inserters and one hydro plant from the first 10 green circuits you get. No idea why, perhaps I just wanted to have a bit of everything. Big mistake, it should be two hydro plants. For getting the slurry loop running you really need two of these, one for cleaning sulfuric waste water and one for water purification. Now I am switching back and forth and buffering with tanks and its _really_ annoying. Its quite a harsh punishment for not doing exactly the right thing with you initial ressources.

Main point: If I am not mistaken, you cannot get more green circuits (which need solder for instance) without getting this slurry loop working. So, if you create no hydro plant for whatever reason (you see the nice 5 blue inserters first) you can hit a dead end and never learn what went wrong. Perhaps the cost of hydro plant should be reduced to avoid that. Other idea could be to postpone fast inserters to a later tech (like the first electronic components), you should not create them earlier anyways. Right now, they are a rather nasty trap.
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Re: [0.16] Sea Block Pack 0.2.6

Postby jodokus31 » Mon Apr 16, 2018 12:50 pm

Lastmerlin wrote:Just started and created 2 fast inserters and one hydro plant from the first 10 green circuits you get. No idea why, perhaps I just wanted to have a bit of everything. Big mistake, it should be two hydro plants. For getting the slurry loop running you really need two of these, one for cleaning sulfuric waste water and one for water purification. Now I am switching back and forth and buffering with tanks and its _really_ annoying. Its quite a harsh punishment for not doing exactly the right thing with you initial ressources.

Main point: If I am not mistaken, you cannot get more green circuits (which need solder for instance) without getting this slurry loop working. So, if you create no hydro plant for whatever reason (you see the nice 5 blue inserters first) you can hit a dead end and never learn what went wrong. Perhaps the cost of hydro plant should be reduced to avoid that. Other idea could be to postpone fast inserters to a later tech (like the first electronic components), you should not create them earlier anyways. Right now, they are a rather nasty trap.


The simple solution is to create purified water with chemplant from hydrogen and oxygen, which should be available plentyfull. And use overflow valve to avoid flaring too much.
One hydro plant must be crafted to get brown algae to advance in research, i think.
So this should not be a dead end.
Postponing fast inserters may be good idea, to avoid wasting the circuits.
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Re: [0.16] Sea Block Pack 0.2.6

Postby talchas » Fri Apr 20, 2018 2:30 am

Is it intended that KS Power's hydrogen burning nets energy with way better density and setup costs than solar or anything else nearby techwise?
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Re: [0.16] Sea Block Pack 0.2.6

Postby Luaan » Fri Apr 20, 2018 9:16 am

pjf wrote:Oh! You can also crush the geodes before dissolving them, which also gives you crushed stone.


Yeah, never dissolve geodes directly, it just isn't worth it. If you go on power efficiency, geodes are the way to go overall. Both crushed stone/mineralized water and slag slurry production is way more efficient from geodes than from (electrolyzer) slag. The main disadvantage is the massive throughput you need for the processing - since you get a random distribution of the geodes, it's a bit logistically intense. It's a lot easier to just plop another slag processing area - there's a lot of nice ratios there, so you can make things pretty and relatively compact.

Of course, that no longer quite has the same effect once you reach Mk 4 electrolyzers and Mk 4 efficiency modules, not to mention more efficient power production. By the time my Seablock base got to 120 MW, I was already plopping productivity and speed modules everywhere anyway :D
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Re: [0.16] Sea Block Pack 0.2.6

Postby jodokus31 » Fri Apr 20, 2018 2:16 pm

talchas wrote:Is it intended that ... nets energy with way better density and setup costs than solar or anything else nearby techwise?


Seems to me, that is a new possibility? If yes, then it would feel kind of cheaty for me. Or I'm just stupid :D
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Re: [0.16] Sea Block Pack 0.2.6

Postby NeptuneJr2 » Fri Apr 20, 2018 8:36 pm

What is he best way to produce power? I don’t really want to spam solar pannels, and don’t have access nuclear yet. I was looking into fuel oil from Angels bio processing, but with none of the dessert seeds seem good for that. Can you find other gardens than dessert? If not, what is the next best way to produce power? Thanks.
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Re: [0.16] Sea Block Pack 0.2.6

Postby minno » Sat Apr 21, 2018 3:58 am

jodokus31 wrote:
talchas wrote:Is it intended that ... nets energy with way better density and setup costs than solar or anything else nearby techwise?


Seems to me, that is a new possibility? If yes, then it would feel kind of cheaty for me. Or I'm just stupid :D


I just checked it out with creative mode. Two electrolyzer 1s can generate 40 hydrogen per second, using 600 kW, which can then be burned to power three boiler 1s, producing 2.7 MW. Definitely broken.
Last edited by minno on Sat Apr 21, 2018 7:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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