Missing Prerequisites

[KiwiHawk]

The one way that I can think of to split pre/post sensibly would be to combine a lot of the techs. The ores are already have tiers. All the ores from a tier could be combined into one tech. Optionally this could also "fix" the current situation where machines are unlocked before any recipes that use that machine.

Disclaimer: I'm not sure that I think this is a good idea. Just throwing ideas around. Example below is incomplete and done from memory; I may (probably) have some of the ore tiers mixed up.

=======
Example
=======

Smelting & Casting 1 - Basic Ores:
Iron, Copper, Tin, Lead
Ingots 1, molten, plates

Smelting & Casting 1 - Intermediate Ores:
Silicon, Aluminum, Nickel, Glass
Ingots 1, molten, plates

Smelting & Casting 1 - Advanced Ores
Gold, Silver, Cobalt, Zinc
Ingots 1, molten, plates

Smelting & Casting 1 - Super Advanced Ores
Tungsten, Titanium
Ingots 1, molten, plates

Smelting 2 - Basic Ores:
Iron, Copper, Tin, Lead
Ingots 2

Casting 2 - Basic Ores:
Iron, Copper, Tin, Lead
Water Coils, Plates from coil

Casting 3 - Basic Ores:
Iron, Copper, Tin, Lead
Coolant Coils

[valneq]

The one way that I can think of to split pre/post sensibly would be to combine a lot of the techs. The ores are already have tiers. All the ores from a tier could be combined into one tech. Optionally this could also "fix" the current situation where machines are unlocked before any recipes that use that machine.

How many recipes would be unlocked by the first tier of smelting technology if we combined all of them into one?
I don't think this will bring more clarity to the players.

Also, can you please explain why or to which extent having a machine unlocked, but no recipe for it, poses a problem that needs any "fixing"?
Earlier in this thread we established guidelines for the tech tree. How would you adapt the guidelines to account for your issues?

[KiwiHawk]

As I proposed it, there would be twelve recipes unlocked.

The first level of smelting tech is no use without also researching casting which is why I thought to combine them. They would be split at future levels.

Thinking about it again, I see no reason why they couldn't be split right from the start. That way the first smelting tech would unlock four recipes and the first casting tech would unlock right recipes. Is that still too many?

[KiwiHawk]

In the base game you never unlock a machine without at the same time unlocking at least one recipe that uses the machine. I saw someone post on the discord (I think) saying their chemical furnace was broken. There was nothing wrong with the furnace. It was the lack of any available recipes that was the source of confusion.

[KiwiHawk]

Vegetable Oil Filtration 2 can be unlocked before Ceramic Filters.
Suggested fix: Split Plant Pressing tech into two. Move Vegetable Oil Filtration 2 recipe to Plant Pressing 2. Either have Plant Pressing 2 depend on Slag Processing 2. Or have ceramic filter creation and washing recipes also unlocked by Plant Pressing 2 as well.

Same applies for Fish Oil Filtration 2 / Fish Pressing.

[valneq]

Vegetable Oil Filtration 2 can be unlocked before Ceramic Filters.
Suggested fix: Split Plant Pressing tech into two. Move Vegetable Oil Filtration 2 recipe to Plant Pressing 2. Either have Plant Pressing 2 depend on Slag Processing 2. Or have ceramic filter creation and washing recipes also unlocked by Plant Pressing 2 as well.

Same applies for Fish Oil Filtration 2 / Fish Pressing.

This was previously reported on github, as part of a long list of issues with the tech tree:
https://github.com/Arch666Angel/mods/issues/428

[lovely_santa]

This needs a rethink. Here is the path, or most of the path, from Adv Iron 1 to Adv Iron 2. To get the 50% gain via processing, you have to researh a lot of not used tech, like cooling. A better, more play friendly way, is to make the reseach available when the minimum prereq are done. That's how tech evolves.
Now it's just max convulution to make it more complex. Make it small steps instead of big bang.
At least split pre (processing), from post (cooling).
Iron1ToIron2.jpg

I am not 100% sure what your point is. The statement "Now it's just max convulution to make it more complex. Make it small steps instead of big bang" is not very concrete.

This is a concrete suggestion we can work with: "At least split pre (processing), from post (cooling)."
In other words, you ask to have every single "Advanced <metal> smelting" technology separated into two: One for smelting, one for casting. Thus, you could unlock better smelting while not having unlocked better casting.

My personal concern with going for this approach is this: making the different tiers of smelting too independent from the different tiers of casting lets you essentially jump over advanced smelting 1, and go for advanced smelting 2 immediately. This would create even more of a "big bang", when going from basic smelting&casting immediately to advanced smelting 2.
Furthermore, this would would almost double the amount of individual technologies from Angel's Smelting in the tech tree. This may not be desirable either.

I am not entirely against that idea, for three reasons.

First, I already optimized the tech tree such that only 1 tier is visible at a time (instead of all 3). So adding a lot of new tech doesn't have such a big impact, as long as they are only upgrade 'levels'. Splitting these technologies in half, would double the amount of research that has to be done, which is still only 2/3rds of what it once was...

Secondly, if you look closely at the smelting technology prerequisites for a particular smelting tech. You always have 2 prerequiste smelting technologies: the angels metallurgy smelting to unlock the 'smithing' buildings (to make the ingots) and another technology to unlock the 'smelting' buildings (to make the plates & derivatives).

Lastly, depending on the technology, you will have additional prerequisites, which are split in two categories. The 'Smithing' technologies have additional petrochem requirements, think about oxygen (for copper), acids (for gold), carbon (for ore processing), while the 'smelting' technologies depend on different ingots. However, these ingots are usually available from earlier tech tiers, which have different prerequisites on refining.

So putting this closer together, when looking at a smelting setup, you have 'a lot' of prerequisites, and a big research tree before getting for example from iron 1 to iron 2 smelting. The idea of splitting the tree up in these 2 separate sections would mean you can research some petrochem to get 'some' productivity and and research 'some' to get productivity from refining. As a player, nothing is stopping you from researching both steps and only rebuild once, right? And an argument of "it will cost more science packs" is invalid, let's be real, you're not running out of resources with angels... You hardly need to go past a 2nd (or 3rd in a worse case) ore patch to launch a rocket...