Bugs & FAQ

Infinite Ores, Refining, Ore Processing ...

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pezzawinkle
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Re: Bugs & FAQ

Post by pezzawinkle »

alercah wrote:
Fri Jul 03, 2020 7:41 am
I need to verify it in practice, but I believe that you can now violate conservation of energy with hydrogen, since Bob made it burnable, even on tier 1 buildings with no modules:
  • Hydrogen has a fuel value of 33 kJ/unit.
  • You can produce 60 hydrogen per second using 4 electrolysers set to purified water electrolysis.
  • You can produce 100 purified water per second, to fuel them, using a single hydro plant.
  • This collectively costs 1.35 MW.
  • Voiding the oxygen and saline water costs another 62 kW.
  • The energy produced in the hydrogen is 1.98 MW.
  • This nets you 578 kW.
This takes a lot more space than a coal setup, but it's far more pollution-efficient due to the pollution reduction on hydrogen, and it's not dependent on coal supply. It's also much more resource-efficient than solar, and though it probably loses out space-wise too, it's at least in the same order of magnitude.
looks like it is working as intended... :D
we do want it to be positive, but not stupidly overpowered, as you said, its space consuming, it has had a slight buff from bobs fuel value. The main reason is not to create these cycles, but to have a useful "vent" of hydrogen and hydrocarbons. I mean, 4 electrolysers, a hydroplant and clarifier are hardly small or low energy units. This looks pretty close to the "you make surplus energy from coolant reprocessing" system.

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Re: Bugs & FAQ

Post by alercah »

low energy
Well, but that's the point, the fact that they are low energy doesn't matter if you get the energy back with interest. I think it's fine to have an objective of letting you do something with excess hydrocarbons, but it providing you with something useful to do with waste shouldn't mean that you actually benefit over never having done it in the first place.

Put another way, if I need a lot of oxygen for my factory, previously it cost a fair amount of energy to produce through electrolysis, or less (although I'd argue not enough less) to produce it through air filtration. Assuming I didn't care about the difference between hydrogen and nitrogen byproducts, filtration was the better choice. And either way there was a cost: more oxygen needs more energy. Now, it's the other way around: more oxygen costs less energy. And I just checked: you can about double the energy output with high-tier electrolysers, making the problem even worse.

It's a basic rule of thermodynamics that you can't get free energy. In Factorio, that's not quite true, but I do believe that good balance says that you generally shouldn't have a process that a) doesn't consume a limited resource b) provides useful products and c) is energy-positive. It takes away a lot of the tension of energy management and its use as a universal cost. (And I'm aware that solar power violates these rules, and I think it is a bad thing.)

(I'm aware that certain module combinations can probably do the same thing, especially with Bob's modules and definitely if you have Bob's raw/god modules. But those things are so stupidly broken in every way that I don't consider them for the sake of these sorts of conversations.)

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Re: Bugs & FAQ

Post by valneq »

alercah wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 6:00 am
low energy
It's a basic rule of thermodynamics that you can't get free energy. In Factorio, that's not quite true, but I do believe that good balance says that you generally shouldn't have a process that a) doesn't consume a limited resource b) provides useful products and c) is energy-positive. It takes away a lot of the tension of energy management and its use as a universal cost. (And I'm aware that solar power violates these rules, and I think it is a bad thing.)
I am pretty sure that via either farming or green algae from Angel's Bioprocessing you also violate these rules: you get lots of energy from basically only water. And I imagine (would need to check) that those options use less space than the one with hydrogen.

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Re: Angels Industries missing Tech Archive 1

Post by valneq »

This should have gone to
mods → Angels Mods → Bugs & FAQ

… not sure whether the Angel's devs will find it here …

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Re: Bugs & FAQ

Post by valneq »

There was another question over here:
viewtopic.php?f=88&t=86559

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Re: Bugs & FAQ

Post by ggrnd0 »

1) component mining return only half materials.
2) angel marathon settings do not works?

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Re: Bugs & FAQ

Post by Koub »

[Koub] Indeed, merged into Angel's bugs&FAQ.
viewtopic.php?p=500960#p500960
and
viewtopic.php?p=501023#p501023
to be more precise.
Koub - Please consider English is not my native language.

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Re: Bugs & FAQ

Post by lovely_santa »

MakeB wrote:
Fri Jul 03, 2020 5:31 pm
So, i found an interesting bug if you prefer.

i have some excess light oil (yellow one...) and if i try to syngas it, produced syngas isn't compatible with other syngas's...what :shock:
Mods should be up-to-date from modportal.
I just loaded your save. If you look in the pipe, you can see that you're mixing fluids as shown in the next picture:
Capture.PNG
Capture.PNG (1.45 MiB) Viewed 483 times
The reason is that you connected synth gas to some input that is not synth gas. Once I disconnected it (top left of picture), I could connect the synth gas pipes on the right.
Capture2.PNG
Capture2.PNG (7.21 MiB) Viewed 483 times
So this is not a bug.
Sevenburner wrote:
Fri Jul 03, 2020 10:59 pm
Hey there,
I play Bob's and Angel's mods in all content they have in there.
As you can guess the title, i've got a little big problem with Tech Archive 1 research, wich i can't find them...

A few pics to show you And the Savegame, where content the config, etc. Maybe it's the mod self, but I can't find any stuff on duckduck, google nor here in forum.

Do you have any suggest what the heck fails?
Thanks !!

~Sevenburner
The tech archive is an entity you get at the start of your map. If you lost it, suicide, and you're get a new one in your inventory. It's not something you can craft. The next tiers are just upgrades to the existing archive. In the next update, some early game tech is introduced to make you familiar with the tech archive before moving onto grey science in the basic lab.
ggrnd0 wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 5:17 pm
1) component mining return only half materials.
2) angel marathon settings do not works?
1) Components do return all materials, or they should at least. Any particular example where this is not the case?
2) Marathon settings do work, not everything supports marathon mode yet, like components, ... but the main parts of angels do. Anything in particular that stands out that is not supporting it?
Koub wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 7:27 pm
[Koub] Indeed, merged into Angel's bugs&FAQ.
viewtopic.php?p=500960#p500960
and
viewtopic.php?p=501023#p501023
to be more precise.
Thank you greatly, and by this post they're answered as well!
You can find all my mods on the mod portal. Also helping on Arch666Angel's mods.
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Re: Bugs & FAQ

Post by MakeB »

lovely_santa wrote:
Sun Jul 05, 2020 12:00 am
MakeB wrote:
Fri Jul 03, 2020 5:31 pm
So, i found an interesting bug if you prefer.

i have some excess light oil (yellow one...) and if i try to syngas it, produced syngas isn't compatible with other syngas's...what :shock:
Mods should be up-to-date from modportal.
I just loaded your save. If you look in the pipe, you can see that you're mixing fluids as shown in the next picture:
Capture.PNG

The reason is that you connected synth gas to some input that is not synth gas. Once I disconnected it (top left of picture), I could connect the synth gas pipes on the right.
Capture2.PNG

So this is not a bug.

I tried to connect the pipe the way did and i get red pipe and message that different fluids cannot be mixed... :cry:

So, they refuse to connect, BUT if i feed syngas from fuel oil stripper to chem plant, it works fine...what? Game must be confused as it is same stuff but still... :shock:

Anyway, thanks for reply mr. santa :D

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Re: Bugs & FAQ

Post by alercah »

A few patches ago, they made the fluid mixing rules less strict so now fluids can mix in many cases where they couldn't previously. Only the most direct mixing is prevented by the engin. Any time you get an error about connecting different fluids and aren't sure about why it's there, you should check the pipe to see if it has multiple fluids in it, and clear the ones that aren't supposed to be there. And if they keep coming back, it's because you have something wrong connected.

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Re: Bugs & FAQ

Post by alercah »

Repair pack 4 & 5 should require blue science science they need green circuits.

Edit: another one: Nitroglycerin requires Chlorine Processing 2; I believe it should be Sulfur Processing 2.

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Re: Bugs & FAQ

Post by burner »

Currently it looks that there is way to produce hydrofluoric acid from hydrogen fluorite gas. But not another way around.
Also tungesten process eat lot of hydrogen fluorite gas and produce fluorite. But there is no way to change fluorite (or acid) back to gas so I think there is missing chemical process. Current situation force to push acid to void and produce new gas with buffers.

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Re: Bugs & FAQ

Post by burner »

One more bug. Deuterium fuel cell production allow add productivity module. That will produce lead from thin air when used fuel cells are resycled.

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Re: Bugs & FAQ

Post by Jemsterr »

Posted this in seablock, and was directed to try posting here.

On my current seablock playthrough, I was looking at playing with nuclear when I realised that the combination of seablock, Angels' overhaul and GotLag's NuclearFuel overhaul was too confusing, so tried to back to 'vanilla' seablock.

Now, the Bobingabout process is locked behind ... something.
Bobingabout.png
Bobingabout.png (95 KiB) Viewed 355 times
I asked in the seablock forum, and was directed here (which surprised me, since I would have assumed it was a bob issue), with the idea that you would be able to find what I had broken in my save. (I'm totally assuming it is something I had done!)

I have attached my current savefile. I have tried deleting the config files from the mod folder, the config.ini in the config folder, and even deleting everything in the mod folder and putting in the 30 files in the seablock pack zip, ignoring that half my factory was deleted when mods were removed (transport drones) and yet the tech was still unresearchable.
Attachments
Bobingabout process.zip
(12.81 MiB) Downloaded 8 times

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Re: Bugs & FAQ

Post by valneq »

Adding mods to a save file or removing them, unfortunately, often causes issues like this.
I think what happened here is that one of the mods (you removed) had plainly disabled the tech "Kovarex Enrichment Process", but removing the mod did not re-enable the tech.

The Kovarex process is a prerequisite to the Bobingabout process.

You can fix your save by executing

Code: Select all

/c game.player.force.technologies['kovarex-enrichment-process'].enabled=true
How I figured out what was wrong?
Load your save (and sync to it!), then quit the session and start a new game. The tech tree of a new session with a given mod configuration should(!) have no such weird broken inconsistencies.
As such, I cannot guarantee that it is the only issue from messing with the mods in the save, but now you know how to identify them.

[edit:] Side note: I don't think this is in any way, shape, or form related to Angel's mods.
Last edited by valneq on Tue Jul 07, 2020 3:44 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Bugs & FAQ

Post by Jemsterr »

Thank you. It was NuclearFuel by GotLag which disabled kovarex.
https://mods.factorio.com/mod/Nuclear%2 ... 000edfe404

All fixed now. thank you again!

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Re: Bugs & FAQ

Post by Jemsterr »

valneq wrote:
Tue Jul 07, 2020 3:41 am
How I figured out what was wrong?
Load your save (and sync to it!), then quit the session and start a new game. The tech tree of a new session with a given mod configuration should(!) have no such weird broken inconsistencies.
As such, I cannot guarantee that it is the only issue from messing with the mods in the save, but now you know how to identify them.
That troubleshooting step was actually very very helpful. I posted over in the seablock thread at almost the exact moment you posted here that I had found the problem. Thing is, there was also another unrelated problem that trainwreck says is from the migration from 0.17 that I was able to identify and fix thanks to your troubleshooting expertise.

It didn't occur to me to look at a new game with the mods installed to see what the tech tree should look like for comparison. Sometimes the obvious is not so easy to think of. Makes me glad I did post in here after all.

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Re: Bugs & FAQ

Post by ggrnd0 »

lovely_santa wrote:
Sun Jul 05, 2020 12:00 am
1) Components do return all materials, or they should at least. Any particular example where this is not the case?
1) start marathon (both checkboes checked) with component mining
2) place miner
3) pickup miner
4) unable to craft, you got only 1/2 materials (furnace works fine...)
lovely_santa wrote:
Sun Jul 05, 2020 12:00 am
2) Marathon settings do work, not everything supports marathon mode yet, like components, ... but the main parts of angels do. Anything in particular that stands out that is not supporting it?
burning miner cost still doubled with 1/1/1/1 sttings

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Re: Bugs & FAQ

Post by pertm »

Fish Oil Filtration 2 takes Ceramic Filter and returns Filter Frame. Should that not be Spent Ceramic Filter? It looks to be different to all other filtration recipes I can find

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Re: Bugs & FAQ

Post by valneq »

pertm wrote:
Tue Jul 07, 2020 7:34 pm
Fish Oil Filtration 2 takes Ceramic Filter and returns Filter Frame. Should that not be Spent Ceramic Filter? It looks to be different to all other filtration recipes I can find
Thanks for reporting, however this has already been fixed for the next release.

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