Development and Discussion

Infinite Ores, Refining, Ore Processing ...

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mexmer
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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by mexmer »

i'm now playing full ab suite from start, i like steam phase, but what i'm missing is steam crusher.

i have steam minner and steam assemblers are from bob mods i think, but steam crusher would really help building early steam powered base. steam ore sorter would be nice also, but ore sorting is close to next tier, when you already running electricty, so not really required, while crushers you need from start.

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by valneq »

mexmer wrote:
Sat Jan 16, 2021 9:28 am
i'm now playing full ab suite from start, i like steam phase, but what i'm missing is steam crusher.

i have steam minner and steam assemblers are from bob mods i think, but steam crusher would really help building early steam powered base. steam ore sorter would be nice also, but ore sorting is close to next tier, when you already running electricty, so not really required, while crushers you need from start.
I agree, this would be a nice addition.
Here is a github issue to track if/when this will be implemented
https://github.com/Arch666Angel/mods/issues/522

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by paradizko »

in 1.1 for turret need red tech, its normal? I need to survive 8 hours without turrets, its painful. In previous 1.0 version turret need grey tech, no? Or I don't understand something?

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by Zyrconia »

I think it is that time of the year again: time for a new play-trough.

Any change of angel's addons being updated for the latest Factorio?

If not, I'll change the version numbers and see if that works.

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by Zyrconia »

Zyrconia wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 11:16 am
I think it is that time of the year again: time for a new play-trough.

Any change of angel's addons being updated for the latest Factorio?

If not, I'll change the version numbers and see if that works.
I had troubles with some mods but then I noticed that they are deprecated. going back in to clean up the mod list...

Edit: With a bit of trimming and removal of abandoned 0.18 mods and replacing them with different 1.1 mods my 0.18 base is up an running :).

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by valneq »

Zyrconia wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 6:24 pm
Zyrconia wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 11:16 am
I think it is that time of the year again: time for a new play-trough.

Any change of angel's addons being updated for the latest Factorio?

If not, I'll change the version numbers and see if that works.
I had troubles with some mods but then I noticed that they are deprecated. going back in to clean up the mod list...

Edit: With a bit of trimming and removal of abandoned 0.18 mods and replacing them with different 1.1 mods my 0.18 base is up an running :).
Several months ago, six of the add-on mods were merged into two. The two new ones are
https://mods.factorio.com/mod/angelsaddons-storage
https://mods.factorio.com/mod/angelsaddons-mobility
and these work just fine with 1.1

The above two mods act as drop-in replacement for the following six addons (which are now deprecated):
  • Ore Silos
  • Warehouses
  • Pressure Tanks
  • Smelting Train
  • Petrochem Train
  • Crawler Train

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by pezzawinkle »

paradizko wrote:
Sat Jan 16, 2021 8:11 pm
in 1.1 for turret need red tech, its normal? I need to survive 8 hours without turrets, its painful. In previous 1.0 version turret need grey tech, no? Or I don't understand something?
And you wonder why we disable them by default... The planned balance is due when we get to moving exploration beyond the heavily conceptual alpha

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by LastDragonLord »

hello, so a suggestion, when i use py petroleum handling, the rocket recipe gets borked (base recipe is hidden) so I cant get space science packs, so the suggestion is to make a new recipe when >py petroleum handling is present, to allow its pretty awfully long rocket fuel process to be used. while also over ruling its own rocket even code. so the recipe does not get reverted back default by Petro, then hidden by yours

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by kingarthur »

LastDragonLord wrote:
Sun Jan 24, 2021 4:59 am
hello, so a suggestion, when i use py petroleum handling, the rocket recipe gets borked (base recipe is hidden) so I cant get space science packs, so the suggestion is to make a new recipe when >py petroleum handling is present, to allow its pretty awfully long rocket fuel process to be used. while also over ruling its own rocket even code. so the recipe does not get reverted back default by Petro, then hidden by yours
thats not going to happen. angels does not support pyanodons and pyanodons does not support using angels. its not worth it for either set of overhaul mods to try and support the other given they are both under going constant changes and improvements. pretty much the only way this will get solved is if i get around to updating pycoaltbaa.

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by Zyrconia »

Hmmm, I prefer the garden crafting recipe where you put one in, get it back and there is a low chance of getting an extra one. But I'll try out this new system.

But otherwise the mods are just a bit better balanced and flow better than they did in 0.18. Good job.

I'm glad that most of my suggestions did make it in. Wall without steel are great. Now we need a turret that is gray science, even if it very weak.

In fact since an Angel's game last at least 10 times as much, biters should scale 10 times slower. Otherwise, you run in the same situation that I did: with red science, I showed up to exactly 3 bitter nests, with about 30 turrets and tons of ammo and... I lost. Had to turn on peaceful mode... again.

The one suggestion that did not make it on (I think) is the custom reverse factory, that only deconstruct buildings, for those who play without the "mining returns components" option. There are a few building added, but not that much. The Reverse Factory mod pollutes the crafting list too much.

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by Zyrconia »

OK, I hit a bit of a snag.

I need Motors 2 and those require an ungodly amount of resin.

First of all let me start by saying that this is my favorite and most played mod pack ever. But last time I played, getting motors 2 was a bit of ****move with the crazy amount of sand that was needed in early game. Like 4 yellow belts of sand. You still need this.

But now things are much worse, since it also requires resin and I found no good way of getting resin.

Let's say you target a low amount, 4 resin/s (motors + green circuits).

This can require 40 wood/s. A huge build, with 22 seed generators. Seed generators are a limited resource. No way can you find 22 trees with an effort proportional to the value of resin and the point you need it. And if you were to go though with it, spend hours to find them, avoid bitters because thanks to the balancing, you can't kill any bitters, unless you spend hours again building ridiculous military, you still need to build a huge built to get the wood.

I don't think getting resin should take 10 hours of work.

You could try to go with raw-bio resin. But this requires 15 temperate seed generators, which is even harder to find than 22 generic seed generators.

You go with a mixed approach and expand you Farm based Ethanol solution which you probably have, for 12 seed generators. You won't get 12, but this is doable. But you end up requiring ridiculous amounts of mud and compost.

Or you can go the petrochemical way. Which kind of renders the whole BioProcessing setup redundant.

Am I missing something obvious?

If not this part of the modpack should be far more potent. At least in a way that doesn't limit you: you want 60 resin/s as soon as you hit yellow belts? Be prepared for a ridiculously huge built but it can be done.

Come to think of it, I do not know how to balance two conflicting ways of producing stuff: Bio an Petrochem. Either they are equally good and it is personal choice, or they are comparable, but one is still better or one is really bad and you wont use, unless forced, like currently in early game and then tech out of it.

As for getting resin through Petrochem, I haven't tried it yet. I'm trying to figure it out.

One way does require green metal catalysts. Which require Crotinnium chunks. For which normally you would need a train. The main reason you are trying to get resin and motors. And Rubyte chunks.

So basically the question is: what's up with the balancing in this mod. I know a post ago I was having good words for it, and early game is pretty much smoothed out, no complains (except that I had to take 3 yellow belts from the nearest Stiritite deposit for copper), but after that things are not OK.

And then there is Alien farming. Need to try that too in order to get more seed generators.

The TLDR is that the balancing is IMHO the very opposite of smooth and well paced. There should be a constant cadence of obstacles which you can soon solve, by researching key technology, and once you have that you should be able to make clear progress towards that goal.

But with the current balancing the new technology is not a solution, but like 5-10 more new problems you need to solve.

So you unlocked motors 2. Can you build them? No? You either need to explore for hours avoiding bitters you can't kill since they are so powerful by now or invest in anew branch (alien farming, which may or may not solve your problem and then yous till need to produce 3 belts of wood, which is excessive, never-mind the 4 belts of sand) or invest into petrochem and belt in ores from distant patches, outside the starting area.

Or maybe this balancing is intentional?

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valneq
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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by valneq »

Zyrconia wrote:
Thu Jan 28, 2021 3:39 am
OK, I hit a bit of a snag.
[…]
Or maybe this balancing is intentional?
Please be aware that you appear to be using the Technology overhaul that is still in alpha development phase, it is by no means final.
Not all features are implemented yet, and balancing is not yet smoothed out.

Be aware: I am not a member of the dev team of Angel's mods, have not even touched the technology overhaul, yet.
Therefore, I cannot make more concrete statements regarding your observations.

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by Zyrconia »

valneq wrote:
Thu Jan 28, 2021 4:35 am
Zyrconia wrote:
Thu Jan 28, 2021 3:39 am
OK, I hit a bit of a snag.
[…]
Or maybe this balancing is intentional?
Please be aware that you appear to be using the Technology overhaul that is still in alpha development phase, it is by no means final.
Not all features are implemented yet, and balancing is not yet smoothed out.

Be aware: I am not a member of the dev team of Angel's mods, have not even touched the technology overhaul, yet.
Therefore, I cannot make more concrete statements regarding your observations.
Yeah, no problem. I'm just providing feedback an play testing.

Especially play testing, that takes time and your perceptions evolve.

Case in point: while my math still works out I think, and if you go for a full build, you will both not be able to get enough seed generators and have to produce 4 belts of sand, I went with all I had already built and only added 2/4 sand belts and arrived at around 42 motor 2s/ minute.

That is around 0.7 motors/second, far form my build that is scaled to 2 motors/s, BUT that is enough for early game because and only because the way early game Angel's works: you both never have enough of the resources you need but also don't need them constantly. You tend to need things in waves as large parts of your base can be dormant because of some key bottleneck.

So basically what I'm saying is that I was barely able to achieve 33% of what I wanted, but with buffering motors I can probably have always enough until I can raise that percentage.

So you can postpone the creation of a Alien farming/Petrochem setup and make fair use of your early game meansx as long as you are not too ambitious!

I'll update you on how the play testing is going. This was probably just the first snag :).

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by Zyrconia »

Here is another piece of feedback: "Garden cultivation", the recipe that has a 1% chance to give each of the gardens, is really bad, might even have a negative yield. For a while it looked like maybe it would slowly overproduce, but eventually it ate all my garden investment and now the build is dead and I was not able to produce a single green thingy for alien life research.

The old recipe was fine, reliable, and challenging, as in had two gardens as output, but one as input, so you needed a clever build or use circuit conditions. Some people complained back in the day, but thanks to exponential growth the build was fine and soon you had enough gardens.

This new one is difficult to math out and might leave you save game completely crippled. Yeah, I know that there is an infinite amount of gardens out there, but I'm not going to go find more. Extremely long exploration trips are boring. Walking is boring. This is a factory building game.

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by Xynariz »

Zyrconia wrote:
Thu Feb 04, 2021 2:44 pm
Here is another piece of feedback: "Garden cultivation", the recipe that has a 1% chance to give each of the gardens, is really bad, might even have a negative yield. For a while it looked like maybe it would slowly overproduce, but eventually it ate all my garden investment and now the build is dead and I was not able to produce a single green thingy for alien life research.

The old recipe was fine, reliable, and challenging, as in had two gardens as output, but one as input, so you needed a clever build or use circuit conditions. Some people complained back in the day, but thanks to exponential growth the build was fine and soon you had enough gardens.

This new one is difficult to math out and might leave you save game completely crippled. Yeah, I know that there is an infinite amount of gardens out there, but I'm not going to go find more. Extremely long exploration trips are boring. Walking is boring. This is a factory building game.
That recipe intentionally has a negative yield - there are other recipes (one for each type of garden) that give positive yields. That recipe is meant for "oh, I only have desert and nothing else, but I need one temperate to jumpstart!"

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by Zyrconia »

Xynariz wrote:
Thu Feb 04, 2021 5:59 pm
Zyrconia wrote:
Thu Feb 04, 2021 2:44 pm
Here is another piece of feedback: "Garden cultivation", the recipe that has a 1% chance to give each of the gardens, is really bad, might even have a negative yield. For a while it looked like maybe it would slowly overproduce, but eventually it ate all my garden investment and now the build is dead and I was not able to produce a single green thingy for alien life research.

The old recipe was fine, reliable, and challenging, as in had two gardens as output, but one as input, so you needed a clever build or use circuit conditions. Some people complained back in the day, but thanks to exponential growth the build was fine and soon you had enough gardens.

This new one is difficult to math out and might leave you save game completely crippled. Yeah, I know that there is an infinite amount of gardens out there, but I'm not going to go find more. Extremely long exploration trips are boring. Walking is boring. This is a factory building game.
That recipe intentionally has a negative yield - there are other recipes (one for each type of garden) that give positive yields. That recipe is meant for "oh, I only have desert and nothing else, but I need one temperate to jumpstart!"
Sorry but that makes no sense at this point in the game and is a giant trap for new players. Or just players.

Here is the scenario: Hey, I still need like 400 "alien plant samples and I have 3 gardens left and have explored way to much. Enough already. Plus, the balancing is off and I can't kill bitters. Let's automate alien life samples! Oh look, here is a recipe delivered just at the right time, around when I'm running out of gardens!".

It makes no sense to deliver a clearly labeled and obvious garden dump at the stage of the game when players are starved for gardens, yet alone an un-obvious trap garden dump.

At red science!

If you must have a dump, add it a blue science levels. (using Angel's research overhaul colors, so T5 science).

Additionally, if you are not very experienced with the mod pack, it might look like alien plant samples are useless after you are done with the very limited research, so you are effectively giving a dump to players just around the moment when they are probably in the last of 50% of their use of the samples.

So basically I waited hours for that big garden build, only to have a dump, so now I can run out, explore, and once I'm done with exploring, I'll stamp down some seed extractors in in 5 minutes get all the samples I need for the next 10-50 hours. The only reason I wanted to automate gardens at this stage was to finish up research, so if I need to finish the research "manually", I won't automate until forced.

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by LemonZawodowiec »

Zrzut ekranu (5).png
Zrzut ekranu (5).png (491.64 KiB) Viewed 3364 times
I use Angels and Bobs modpack with combination of Warptorio2...
What can i do to delete the line "Angel's Enemy Multiplier" from map generator?

The issue i have is that Warptorio2 with each jump/change of the map/planet
it uses randomized settings in map generator...
This means that "Angel's Enemy Multiplier" changes from the setting of 600% Size
which results with me having biters only on the first starting map...

So my issue stands... What do i need to edit to delete this bar from map generator?

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by Zyrconia »

Is there anything that accepts productivity modules with Angel's components and revamp turned on? So far I didn't find anything...

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by hedgerc »

Re gardens.

I only looked at Bio Industries (beyond wood production) in the last two days. After poring over FNEI and "What is it really used for" for a day, I concluded that the first level of gardens is, indeed, a garden dump

I concluded that you need to do the first bit of research by hand. I confirmed this with devs on their Discord site. You need to manually research to level 3 one of the garden types (say, temperate farming environment) It takes approximately 5 gardens worth of alien plant life to reach this. You then need 2 more gardens to make the infinite gardens directly. (It is incredibly slow to grind into action but it is a positive loop.)

I should note that getting alienated fertilizer for the recipe is as complicated as anything else in Angels. But, I do love that the factorio fish finally have a purpose. (Getting pulped...)

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by Zyrconia »

Zyrconia wrote:
Sun Feb 14, 2021 7:32 pm
Is there anything that accepts productivity modules with Angel's components and revamp turned on? So far I didn't find anything...
To answer my question, yes, plenty of stuff.

I was looking at vanilla modules which do not work, but Bob's productivity modules work fine.

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