Development and Discussion

Infinite Ores, Refining, Ore Processing ...

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valneq
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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by valneq »

darkfrei wrote:
Sat Dec 19, 2020 3:05 pm
I don't know how to reproduce it.[…]
Do you say it does not crash anymore?

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by darkfrei »

valneq wrote:
Sat Dec 19, 2020 4:39 pm
darkfrei wrote:
Sat Dec 19, 2020 3:05 pm
I don't know how to reproduce it.[…]
Do you say it does not crash anymore?
No, I cannot play with this error and removed the mod. I haven't savegame and I cannot exactly say how I got this error anymore.

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by bagalas »

Hi,

With all the default settings and no RSO the combined yield of oil pacthes are btween 1000-3000 in the vicinity of the starting area, on the other hand gas patches are range from 3000 up to 12000. This would be much o an issue, could be just bad RNG. but thermal water pacthes combined yield are starting from 33k on a 2 patch field and about 100k on 5 patches. They are consistently at least 10 times bigger then oil and gas. Is this a bug or is this inteded?

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by valneq »

bagalas wrote:
Wed Dec 23, 2020 4:29 pm
Hi,

With all the default settings and no RSO the combined yield of oil pacthes are btween 1000-3000 in the vicinity of the starting area, on the other hand gas patches are range from 3000 up to 12000. This would be much o an issue, could be just bad RNG. but thermal water pacthes combined yield are starting from 33k on a 2 patch field and about 100k on 5 patches. They are consistently at least 10 times bigger then oil and gas. Is this a bug or is this inteded?
Bare numbers don't mean much. Relative numbers are king. What's the amounts that your base needs compared to what is available on the map? Do you run into issues hunting for a specific resource repeatedly?

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by bagalas »

valneq wrote:
Wed Dec 23, 2020 4:42 pm

Bare numbers don't mean much. Relative numbers are king. What's the amounts that your base needs compared to what is available on the map? Do you run into issues hunting for a specific resource repeatedly?
So the premise was that I used RSO and Unlasting oil mods and about 100 hours into the game I noticed that my starting oil patch has 16M oil, thats so much I'll probabaly never use it up. Then my starting gas patch showed a measly 300K gas. I was a bit dazzeled fearing my factory would suffer. I quikly expolred a large area to see whats up and the relative numbers were the same.
Then I disbaled RSO and let other settings on default and started up a new game with creative mod to see whats what.
The result was that gas patches were in the 10s of thousands, the thermal water patches were in the hundreds of thousands and the oil patches in the millions.
I then proceeded to disbale unlasting oil as well, so just the base B&A and default settings which resulted in the numbers I mentioned earlier. (as percentages)
I'm not trying to figure out if these are the corret numbers, or there are some whitchery in either the unlasting oil mod or in RSO.

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by kingarthur »

bagalas wrote:
Wed Dec 23, 2020 4:48 pm
valneq wrote:
Wed Dec 23, 2020 4:42 pm

Bare numbers don't mean much. Relative numbers are king. What's the amounts that your base needs compared to what is available on the map? Do you run into issues hunting for a specific resource repeatedly?
So the premise was that I used RSO and Unlasting oil mods and about 100 hours into the game I noticed that my starting oil patch has 16M oil, thats so much I'll probabaly never use it up. Then my starting gas patch showed a measly 300K gas. I was a bit dazzeled fearing my factory would suffer. I quikly expolred a large area to see whats up and the relative numbers were the same.
Then I disbaled RSO and let other settings on default and started up a new game with creative mod to see whats what.
The result was that gas patches were in the 10s of thousands, the thermal water patches were in the hundreds of thousands and the oil patches in the millions.
I then proceeded to disbale unlasting oil as well, so just the base B&A and default settings which resulted in the numbers I mentioned earlier. (as percentages)
I'm not trying to figure out if these are the corret numbers, or there are some whitchery in either the unlasting oil mod or in RSO.
doesnt matter what numbers you get between angels gen and rso as rso has its own files for setting resource amounts that are completely separate from whatever numbers are in angels. right or wrong theyre not directly related to each other.

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by jinks »

Is there a way to remove Angel's Industries hard dependency on Bio Processing?

I really like the aesthetics of Industries and the focus on heavy, but slow bots, but Bio Processing blows up module building (Bob's modules) from ~20 buildings to 400+ buildings in the first tier alone. And my PC just can't handle that on top of everything else.

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Suggestion on the wood farm

Post by Sworn »

As long as I like this mod and all those things we have in it, I think the tree farm is way to far in the tech tree. You do need tree logs for recipes in the early game but you will only have tree farms on blue/red tech, going out chopping down tree is not fun at all, and you have to keep doing it for way to long until you can finally have a farm up. Considering all other techs that you have to unlock before it.

We should have a way to get trees early on like any other resources, doesn't meter if is slow as fu@#, than we speed it up as normal like any other resource gathering in the mod and in the game.

For me we should have an early way to get trees or at least remove all the log from all the recipes, like belts that you have to craft a TON of. Or at least use the cellulose fiber that we can farm early on

----
Edit: I'm playing with the full set bobs+angels with the belt tech overall on, which add the first slowest grey belt that require wood to be crafted

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Re: Suggestion on the wood farm

Post by mexmer »

Sworn wrote:
Sat Jan 02, 2021 3:51 am
Edit: I'm playing with the full set bobs+angels with the belt tech overall on, which add the first slowest grey belt that require wood to be crafted
if you play with bobs, then bobs greenhouse is tech you seek, and it's early red research.

without bob mods, you would not have wood demand issue.

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Re: Suggestion on the wood farm

Post by Sworn »

mexmer wrote:
Sat Jan 02, 2021 9:48 am
Sworn wrote:
Sat Jan 02, 2021 3:51 am
Edit: I'm playing with the full set bobs+angels with the belt tech overall on, which add the first slowest grey belt that require wood to be crafted
if you play with bobs, then bobs greenhouse is tech you seek, and it's early red research.

without bob mods, you would not have wood demand issue.
you can consider it early if we look at all tech tree, but still, have you tried to play with this settings? the amount of belt that you have to craft and with no way of automating it. That is the point, you can't automate the most basic of the basic that is the first tier of belt, without having to go chopping trees. You won't be able to unlock it for at least the first 3~5h, the amount of structure that you have to have before you are able to research it is quite big for the first belt tier.

Sure it isn't a problem in bob's only, that is why I'm posting here, it is only an issue when adding all angels research.

My suggestion would be to when angels detect bobs and its settings on, to switch the recipe to use cellulose fiber, it is hand craftable and it is automatable in a fair way.

There are other recipes like the initial circuit, but this one isn't a problem since you can switch to paper very early on
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mexmer
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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by mexmer »

i see, i didn't have technology overhaul enabled. but you can make celulose fiber from green algae, so you don't need wood. so that should not be issue anyways.

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by Sworn »

not quite, celulose fiber is the suggestion that I have, you can't use celulose fiber to craft wood, you can only do wood to celulose fiber. So anything that require wood it self is "kind of issue". For the grey belts (underground and splitters) that require wood and at this early stage you do require quite a lot of them.

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by mexmer »

Sworn wrote:
Sat Jan 02, 2021 11:00 pm
not quite, celulose fiber is the suggestion that I have, you can't use celulose fiber to craft wood, you can only do wood to celulose fiber. So anything that require wood it self is "kind of issue". For the grey belts (underground and splitters) that require wood and at this early stage you do require quite a lot of them.
you are right, i forgot about gray belts. was thinking little further about things that require red circuits.
althought only splitters and underbelts need wood (normal belt doesn't) it's quite way to wood and with bobs overhaul you need grays for yellow, so you can't do without wood.

i will need to check it myself, since in normal game you only need it for poles.

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by Sworn »

Yeh, that is it, if we can have the very basic like the belts and maybe a power pole change to cellulose I think that would be more than enough without putting to much headache on it. I have just started a new play, I don't really remember everything that need wood before you are actually able to get wood, there are more to it, but I thinks most of the others you already have the tech to get wood so doesn't need to go that far, I think only the very early stage is enough, the very basic stuff to get things going.

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by mexmer »

well, splitters/ug are not that huge issue, you don't need that much of them, depends on your build, but much bigger issue is gray research, especially when you get map without forest, only trees scattered in desert ... there needs to be alternate recipe with celulose for grey research.

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by Sworn »

Yeh, I definitely restart the game every time I had started in a dry area. Grey research I didn't find to much an issue, paper is only 4 research down the line, and they are cheap, the first one "basic technology" is more expensive and you have to hand craft it so, doing for 1.5 (last 3 research, half cost each) more isn't much a pain. But maybe not even having enough for the very first 2 or 3 techs, yeh that would be a big no. Also going hunt for trees out in the world isn't much safe, and that early on there isn't much you can do about the biters, almost every early combat mod didn't consider that early tech level in bobs+angels+settings[on].

I do disagree with the ug/splitter usage, you have to use it to get recipes done in such basic tech, its hard to get recipes that use 3 or 4 items without any long inserter, so at least for me, I use a lot of the underground belt + inserter in L shape, to get them working. And in the early game splitter is the only filter you have for all the stone in the crushers.

With those tech options combined, the start of the game is quite slow and you do have to do a lot of crafting for all the components, for that I usually start automating the inserters, blocks and those basic components that you have to have in order to craft anything, with the components overall changes, other wise you spend like 10 minutes hand crafting 10 or 20 items, and to achieve that basic automation, I do use a considerable a mount of splitter and underground.

Considering what you said about tress, I thinking, changing the green house tech and recipe to make it super early, same level as basic automation? But that comes with the recipe that require glass, and also saplings, that would add a lot of headache to balance out. Maybe an alternative green house recipe that only make wood from wood in a very slow process? So it should be considerable worst than using the angels/bob wood tech. Something like you go, chop down some trees and replant them, aka, you go get one wood log, use a primitive green house that make what, 5 wood from that wood in like 1.5minutes? Or just use water if we consider no trees what so ever.

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by jodokus31 »

How much UG and splitters do you need and how much wood is that? From what I understood, those are the only items, besides power poles, which need real wood. Circuits need them in the beginning, but then can be replaced by fiber.
There are also those angels trees, which give you 100 wood. And going out for chopping wood, shouldn't be that much of problem regarding biters. It's quite fast to collect several hundreds of wood

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by Sworn »

I have never counted, just saying, more than you expect. Don't forget the power poles. Better if you give it a try, see how much you will end up needing before you are able to get the first angels or bobs wood farming running, in a normal game you have to research other things besides only going straight to wood farming, otherwise you'll be dead before you get there. And even going only for the wood farm, which is red + blue, yeh you do need tons of other tech, builds, power and so on to even be able to research it.

What I do is setup a chest outputting to the factory, so when I finally have a farm up and running I just swap the chest for the farm output without having to remake part of the base. If you go this route, you will see that more than you would like you have to go get more wood, more than just one or two full chest of wood. If you just manually put the wood in the machines that require it, you will see that you will end up needing to babysit them way more than you would like, making the hole experience bad. And that is the point that I'm calling out for that particular situation.

Swapping the wood for cellulose fiber sounds the cleanest way for me. Seems the intended way if you look to other recipes, just seems that it didn't consider those mods settings combined, which is fair, all combinations should be insane hard to actually have a playthrough to test it.

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by mexmer »

Sworn wrote:
Mon Jan 04, 2021 1:18 am
Yeh, I definitely restart the game every time I had started in a dry area. Grey research I didn't find to much an issue, paper is only 4 research down the line, and they are cheap, the first one "basic technology" is more expensive and you have to hand craft it so, doing for 1.5 (last 3 research, half cost each) more isn't much a pain. But maybe not even having enough for the very first 2 or 3 techs, yeh that would be a big no. Also going hunt for trees out in the world isn't much safe, and that early on there isn't much you can do about the biters, almost every early combat mod didn't consider that early tech level in bobs+angels+settings[on].

I do disagree with the ug/splitter usage, you have to use it to get recipes done in such basic tech, its hard to get recipes that use 3 or 4 items without any long inserter, so at least for me, I use a lot of the underground belt + inserter in L shape, to get them working. And in the early game splitter is the only filter you have for all the stone in the crushers.

With those tech options combined, the start of the game is quite slow and you do have to do a lot of crafting for all the components, for that I usually start automating the inserters, blocks and those basic components that you have to have in order to craft anything, with the components overall changes, other wise you spend like 10 minutes hand crafting 10 or 20 items, and to achieve that basic automation, I do use a considerable a mount of splitter and underground.

Considering what you said about tress, I thinking, changing the green house tech and recipe to make it super early, same level as basic automation? But that comes with the recipe that require glass, and also saplings, that would add a lot of headache to balance out. Maybe an alternative green house recipe that only make wood from wood in a very slow process? So it should be considerable worst than using the angels/bob wood tech. Something like you go, chop down some trees and replant them, aka, you go get one wood log, use a primitive green house that make what, 5 wood from that wood in like 1.5minutes? Or just use water if we consider no trees what so ever.
crushed stone is done by making "filter box", same for slag stones.

filter box is iron box, which has in each spot 1 crushed stone, you play it with inserter directly to crusher ... it will put only stone there, and iron/copper to furnace or to sorter (which needs 2 crushers). it's early build i use since long time with angels, i mean probly since i started playing with his mod back in 0.13

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by jodokus31 »

Sworn wrote:
Mon Jan 04, 2021 10:13 pm
I have never counted, just saying, more than you expect. Don't forget the power poles. Better if you give it a try, see how much you will end up needing before you are able to get the first angels or bobs wood farming running, in a normal game you have to research other things besides only going straight to wood farming
...
more than just one or two full chest of wood.
...
I think, I have to try it myself. 2 full chests of wood sounds painful

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