Development and Discussion

Infinite Ores, Refining, Ore Processing ...

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Zyrconia
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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by Zyrconia »

Tommo175 wrote:
Sat May 02, 2020 3:15 am
trionicb wrote:
Fri May 01, 2020 2:13 pm
Tommo175 wrote:
Fri May 01, 2020 9:46 am
So having a small problem relating to crushed stone, im about 30 hours into my save and i have over 5million crushed stone..... :|
I have no idea how to get rid of it
Anyone have any ideas?

Thanks, Thomas
Make bricks and pave the world! If not then you can create mineral water and just void it with the clarifier.
Didn’t think of the brick floor that’s a fantastic idea!
Also I think I am producing more crushed stone than I would be able to reasonably turn into mineral water and pump into the clarifier

Also is there anything useful to do with all the crushed stone that u would always eventually accumulate or is it just expected that u will have a extremely large amount if it?
Yes, you are expected to have a great amounts of it.

I finished designing my waste disposal plant, scaled up to consume two full red belts of crashed stone/s and all the slag that I'm producing. It used a priority system to turn that crushed stone into mineralized water, then slag slurry, then stone (stone gets processed further) then finally if all else is full it will turn the rest to mineralzied water again and clarify it. It has built in sulfuric acid production, with all the sulfuric waste water coming on site from coke, if and only if there is no sulfuric waste water from the outside. To make sure all the coke has somewhere to go it is converted to carbon and sent to power. Oxygen is also produced on site for the sulfuric.

It also creates mineral catalysts, last time I checked 18/s. The whole thing is huge and will only get bigger.

Managing your byproducts is the name of the game with Angel's.

Or you can take the easy way and just clarify everything.

And yes, you can reasonably clarify all that you are producing. A build that can clarify 10 blue belts of crushed stone would be much smaller than my waste disposal plant.

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by evandy »

Tommo175 wrote:
Fri May 01, 2020 9:46 am
So having a small problem relating to crushed stone, im about 30 hours into my save and i have over 5million crushed stone..... :|
I have no idea how to get rid of it
Anyone have any ideas?

Thanks, Thomas
This is common prior to catalyst sorting. As soon as you have that tech, you'll be turning the stone into mineral catalysts and turning it into iron, copper, etc. and running out faster than you think.

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by lovely_santa »

Tommo175 wrote:
Sat May 02, 2020 3:15 am
trionicb wrote:
Fri May 01, 2020 2:13 pm
Tommo175 wrote:
Fri May 01, 2020 9:46 am
So having a small problem relating to crushed stone, im about 30 hours into my save and i have over 5million crushed stone..... :|
I have no idea how to get rid of it
Anyone have any ideas?

Thanks, Thomas
Make bricks and pave the world! If not then you can create mineral water and just void it with the clarifier.
Didn’t think of the brick floor that’s a fantastic idea!
Also I think I am producing more crushed stone than I would be able to reasonably turn into mineral water and pump into the clarifier

Also is there anything useful to do with all the crushed stone that u would always eventually accumulate or is it just expected that u will have a extremely large amount if it?
Eventually you'll start sinking ALOT of it into mineral sludge.
You can find all my mods on the mod portal. Also helping on Arch666Angel's mods.
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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by Tommo175 »

Thanks for the help guys i really appreciate it :D

What is the end game best way of producing iron, copper and the other core metals I want to know what I’m aiming for not just bumbleing about with my sorters

Also what’s the path for liquid resin I’ve been trying to figure it out for a while and can’t piece it together

Thomas, Thomas

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by Zyrconia »

Tommo175 wrote:
Sun May 03, 2020 3:22 am
Thanks for the help guys i really appreciate it :D

What is the end game best way of producing iron, copper and the other core metals I want to know what I’m aiming for not just bumbleing about with my sorters

Also what’s the path for liquid resin I’ve been trying to figure it out for a while and can’t piece it together

Thomas, Thomas
Unfortunately, or perhaps fortunately, depending on what you like in Factorio, Angel's does not work like that. There may be a best method to get any particular metal, but you will only get this with relatively late game tech.

This is a general rule for Angel: you get a shitty low tech production line which is never ever producing anything at a satisfying rate and has tons of byproducts that you can't use and you slowly tech up, starting to get better throughput, you get less byproducts and you can use them. The way you get metals at red science is different than at green and different at orange science and so on. It is up to you to mix and match.

And you will have to rip up eventually your low tech method and replace with high tech one.

But for iron, the best method, one that scales to end-game I think is Ferrous Ore sorting. Until you get that you can sort for iron or just smelt crushed saphirite. Once you get Ferrous Ore, all your iron problems are solved forever. And once you get Advanced Manganese 2, your steel problems are solved forever. Until then you won't get any decent steel throughput without buffering manganese. I'm producing it at 4.5/s and have 3 full warehouses of manganese, which I'll probably destroy, since I see no way to use it.

Cupric Ore is great for Tin + Copper early game, but this is stepping stone tech for me: it produces tin and copper in equal amounts, I have used up all my copper yet have almost 600.0000 buffered tin. Needles to say than tin will be enough for dozens of hours and I switched over to raw copper production using mineral catalysts. Once the tin runs out, I'll switch to raw tin production using mineral catalysts and say goodbye forever to Cupric, since honestly it isn't too good, unlike Ferrous, which is great and infinitely scalable.

As for Liquid Resin, you need two things. One is wood: you either use the tons of it you have from clearing the map (I used up several tens of thousands, liquid resin is a great wood sync) or you grow it. I grow it, with the wood I get from clearing the map being used first.

Then, you need Ethanol gas, which I got Fermentation base, which you get form Angel's farms. There are multiple ways, I got mine from Corn. You can also use Fruits.

Combine Ethanol + Resin which you get from wood and you are done. This is of course the easiest low tech way to get it.

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by Zyrconia »

So do you "early" game bases look like the attachment?

Angel's has come a long way since the last time I built "big" and there are so many things to produce and so much complexity. This is my second base with Angel's Industries. The first one was an over-engineered mess, with a grid structure.

This base is just on the brink of reaching Orange science, it just produced the first Orange Circuits. And it is huge. And there are still thing I don't produce, like fish, poofers, any oil related stuff, war stuff, glass and all the metals I don't need, like gunmetal...

By end-game the base will be ginormous...

Do you guys manage to build smaller bases that do what you need?
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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by Tommo175 »

Zyrconia wrote:
Sun May 03, 2020 7:22 pm
Tommo175 wrote:
Sun May 03, 2020 3:22 am
Thanks for the help guys i really appreciate it :D

What is the end game best way of producing iron, copper and the other core metals I want to know what I’m aiming for not just bumbleing about with my sorters

Also what’s the path for liquid resin I’ve been trying to figure it out for a while and can’t piece it together

Thomas, Thomas
Unfortunately, or perhaps fortunately, depending on what you like in Factorio, Angel's does not work like that. There may be a best method to get any particular metal, but you will only get this with relatively late game tech.

This is a general rule for Angel: you get a shitty low tech production line which is never ever producing anything at a satisfying rate and has tons of byproducts that you can't use and you slowly tech up, starting to get better throughput, you get less byproducts and you can use them. The way you get metals at red science is different than at green and different at orange science and so on. It is up to you to mix and match.

And you will have to rip up eventually your low tech method and replace with high tech one.

But for iron, the best method, one that scales to end-game I think is Ferrous Ore sorting. Until you get that you can sort for iron or just smelt crushed saphirite. Once you get Ferrous Ore, all your iron problems are solved forever. And once you get Advanced Manganese 2, your steel problems are solved forever. Until then you won't get any decent steel throughput without buffering manganese. I'm producing it at 4.5/s and have 3 full warehouses of manganese, which I'll probably destroy, since I see no way to use it.

Cupric Ore is great for Tin + Copper early game, but this is stepping stone tech for me: it produces tin and copper in equal amounts, I have used up all my copper yet have almost 600.0000 buffered tin. Needles to say than tin will be enough for dozens of hours and I switched over to raw copper production using mineral catalysts. Once the tin runs out, I'll switch to raw tin production using mineral catalysts and say goodbye forever to Cupric, since honestly it isn't too good, unlike Ferrous, which is great and infinitely scalable.

As for Liquid Resin, you need two things. One is wood: you either use the tons of it you have from clearing the map (I used up several tens of thousands, liquid resin is a great wood sync) or you grow it. I grow it, with the wood I get from clearing the map being used first.

Then, you need Ethanol gas, which I got Fermentation base, which you get form Angel's farms. There are multiple ways, I got mine from Corn. You can also use Fruits.

Combine Ethanol + Resin which you get from wood and you are done. This is of course the easiest low tech way to get it.

That’s really helpful thanks I find it really hard to see what the next tier entails and what I need to put into it to get out what I want. But Ferrous ore sounds like the go to so I’ll try use that ASAP.

Wood is a massive problem for me because being my first real angels play through I unknowingly screwed myself by turning the amount of trees down so I’ve been really rushing getting a greenhouse setup so I can have a reliable stream of wood

In All my factorio games to date I’ve always trued to tear down/replace as little as possible (with the exception of primitive production buildings like burner machines) so from what I’ve learned there is going to be much more replacing than I’m used to lol so I better get to it!

Thanks, Thomas
Last edited by Tommo175 on Mon May 04, 2020 6:10 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by Tommo175 »

Zyrconia wrote:
Sun May 03, 2020 7:32 pm
So do you "early" game bases look like the attachment?

Angel's has come a long way since the last time I built "big" and there are so many things to produce and so much complexity. This is my second base with Angel's Industries. The first one was an over-engineered mess, with a grid structure.

This base is just on the brink of reaching Orange science, it just produced the first Orange Circuits. And it is huge. And there are still thing I don't produce, like fish, poofers, any oil related stuff, war stuff, glass and all the metals I don't need, like gunmetal...

By end-game the base will be ginormous...

Do you guys manage to build smaller bases that do what you need?
This factory looks so organised and pre planned most of my factory’s start with base materials and as I progress I run lines from my core material manufactories to the new factory’s that need the materials. It’s nearly always a very messy and unorganised mess that snowballs to the point where it’s too big a problem to tackle so I just expand and build more stuff lol

I don’t normally make smaller bases with the exception being very small ore outposts that I train back to my mega factory. It just doesn’t make sense to me to build a separate logistic and power network for materials that I can easily process at my core base

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by Tommo175 »

Hey I was just looking at the various ways to produce steel and I saw that you can turn silicon directly into steel and that looks very good is there something that makes that not a good idea or have most people just overlooked it??

Thanks, Thomas

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by MeduSalem »

Zyrconia wrote:
Sun May 03, 2020 7:32 pm
So do you "early" game bases look like the attachment?

Angel's has come a long way since the last time I built "big" and there are so many things to produce and so much complexity. This is my second base with Angel's Industries. The first one was an over-engineered mess, with a grid structure.
Worse.

That is all that can be said.

In Vanilla I already have the perfect grid layout and so on but Angel's+Bob's... screw it... After 2-3 years the base still ends up being a complete mess because there is so many intermediate steps, most of which have to be expanded/replaced/torn down eventually and even in late game so much stuff to consider. Not even when toying around with Creative Mode I manage to do something that also looks good because many recipes require at least 1 ingredient that doesn't want to fit into the layout and where you have to run a belt or pipe across the entire map... and then you run out of space even though you thought it would be enough this time... so you start botching about until it becomes a mess again.

Except maybe for the ore refining and the oil/gas industry internally... those I have become rather good at... probably because I spend like 100 hours alone toying around with each of them.

But the smelting part... that is where the nightmare already starts with all the chemical pipes and other ingredients that are needed for better ingot production.

That is usually where I start using bots at some point because I get sick of the belt madness.
Zyrconia wrote:
Sun May 03, 2020 7:32 pm
Do you guys manage to build smaller bases that do what you need?
Yes, but it takes almost forever to get anywhere then.

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by blahfasel2000 »

lovely_santa wrote:
Wed Mar 18, 2020 12:03 am
It is quite a power hungry chain (just like IRL), making deuterium quite valuable. You'll also notice that the boiler (on the right) has multiple outputs. I have altered the boiler internally to be some sort of assembling machine, so you can now even add modules and beacon your boilers in order to increase the speed, or make them less power hungry.
Just came across this. Doesn't that mean that you can use an electric boiler with efficiency modules to create free energy consuming only water? Because as it is without modules putting the steam from a boiler into steam engines (mk1) gives back exactly the same power that the boiler consumes, and if you drop the power consumption with modules, you get left over power. Are you aware of this or is it an unintended side effect of adding module slots?

Although it probably doesn't matter that much at the stage of the game where you could actually start exploiting this.

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by Zyrconia »

So what is a good and scalable way to get liquid resin from petrochem. The Bio stuff isn't cutting it anymore and liquid resin is my main bottleneck (besides everything else).

I'm just about to get Blue science from Angel's industries and I have absolutely no oil processing in the base yet. I haven't done any serious oil since 0.15 or 0.16.

And speaking of Blue science, I think it is very poorly balanced. Orange science is largely inconsequential, only having one must have tech. Two if you count Plastic, which so far I did not need. You only need it for batteries.

So as soon as you are ready to tart orange science, which is a fairly long process, you immediately find out that it useless and what you actually want is blue science. There is no other convenient way to fix your ore bottleneck without Blue science, unless you are willing to put down 10+ silos for each by-product ore. Even so, with conservatively large builds that still don't produce enough of what I need, only at most 25%, I'm drowning in Manganese and Lead.

So basically as soon as you are ready to start orange science, a mad dash starts that last forever and doesn't stop until you get blue science, all while having painfully low and unsolvable production of things like aluminum, silver and gold. You basically need to build T3 and T4 back to back.

This process is so long and involved that I did not have time to make oil or start playing around with puffers for modules.

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by cdowns59 »

lovely_santa wrote:
Fri Apr 24, 2020 8:06 pm
cdowns59 wrote:
Mon Apr 20, 2020 1:23 pm
... The current compost recipe takes any single bio item, be it wood, algae, a crop, etc. Real life composting doesn't work like that - you need a mix of green waste and brown waste. So perhaps:
  • the original composting recipes could be nerfed to be low efficiency, probabilistic recipes ("mulching").
  • advanced, far more efficient composting recipes added which take multiple inputs, perhaps via an intermediate step to form green and brown waste to reduce the combinations of compost recipes.
Doing this would encourage players to explore the range of farming options rather than on just a few.
Compost isn't meant to become productive, it's meant to be a bio/organic void like the flare is a chemical void and the liquifier a water void, so allowing a single item as input is a must-have. It's not too bad to create farms dedicated for creating compost either, so it feels balanced as it is?
I don’t consider compost to be a void - it’s used to make soil which is used, for example, to grow trees for renewable wood which then is used to make a host of other items. AFAIK there’s no way to remove compost other than putting it in a chest and shooting it, and organic items can normally just back up without issue, right?

If we consider the wood route, in the current state of the mod it’s quite efficient to make compost from wood. I can’t remember the exact numbers now, and the tree to wood recipe is probabilistic and dependant on tier, but each wood used to make compost makes quite a few more wood per growth cycle. Perhaps it seems a bit overpowered to get so much wood early on, certainly unrealistic that wood on its own would produce excellent compost.

My suggestion was to reduce the ratio of wood-out to wood-in by changing the current compost recipe to be far less efficient - there would be, say, a 10% chance for wood to make a compost, and the same/similar for the other inputs (leaves, nuts, etc.). Absolutely keep the single input recipes, but make it so that you just break even with the output item - a small increase per cycle. However, when these single items are combined, perhaps also with addition of soil (worms are good for making compost) the process is far more efficient, as in real life, and you use up fewer of your compost ingredients per growth cycle. As the number of compost recipes would balloon with the combination of inputs, an intermediate step could turn items into green or brown waste. This, as well as being more realistic, would encourage players to grow a wider range of crops (although it’s looking like the various crystals for modules would do that anyway, which I have discovered as my game has progressed) and sort out the logistics between them and the composter.

I’ve been playing with Angel’s Industry the last few days. It’s very different, but I quite like how research is now done in different buildings (it kind of makes sense). The early technologies (e.g. logistics and hence long inserter) take a lot of science packs though, which themselves are composed of lower tier science packs. If the science requirement per tech could be reduced then the earlier game would be smoother/less frustrating. I have an issue with the apm-nuclear science pack not being accepted by any lab, but perhaps the mod author can add an option to remove it from the game (it is an optional setting for the infinite technologies). Otherwise, would it be possible for you to add a setting that removes other science pack requirements from recipes?

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by brysamo »

lovely_santa wrote:
Fri Apr 24, 2020 8:06 pm
brysamo wrote:
Thu Apr 23, 2020 11:41 pm
So I'm experiencing a weird issue with transporting molten glass by train (and honestly I'm not sure if the issue lies within Angel's or Bob's).

1 - Only molten fluids are affected
I thought this was just an issue with molten glass but it was the only molten fluid I was transporting. tried it with a few others and same deal.
2 - My train only fills if I put it to manual. I've tried every auto condition, only manual makes it actually fill. When on auto, it will fill with 400 units, and then stop
3 - The first time I did this it just showed the train as 1 single tank (i, displayed 400k units when full). Now it shows each wagon separately
https://i.imgur.com/Suf17WT.jpg
4 - Destroying the train and rebuilding it didn't work
5 - Making a brand new train didn't work
6 - Destroying the whole station and all fluid didn't work
7 - The casters on the bottom making glass panes work fine
8 - Getting rid of the petrochem mod didn't work (but before i did that I tried the petrochem wagon, didn't work)

I should also add I'm not running the latest update of Angel's or Bob's because I don't want to reconfigure my factory to deal with RTGs that Bob's added for satellites this late in the game, but to troubleshoot I did update and the issue remained.
This was working perfectly fine when I first built it. I transported millions of units with no issues (there have been a bunch of updates to both Angel's and Bob's since then).
My best bet, with keeping the past updates in mind... Are the different fluids in the tanks for example, are they the same temperature? My guess would be they are a bit too cold, and when the train starts filling up, the tank is draining, so new hot fluid enters and the temperature can rise, when it bumps the temperature, the train stops filling? If this is the case, you should report this to the base game, as it is meant to equalize the temperature, so the fluid in the fluid wagon should rise as well, instead of stop filling. I did change the temperature on the smelting fluids to represent real life melting points, as requested on /r/factorio a while back.
So it seems like the issue has something to do with the default max temp of the game being 1000°C
Honktown has some input on a potential fix from within the mod:
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=84303&p=493161#p493161

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by Zyrconia »

OK, what am I missing here: I have a 100% up-time Rubyte Chunk producer feed into a perfectly balanced Rubyte Crystal producer and I'm processing 100% of the byproduct of Nitric Waste water into 4.5/s Sodium Nitrate.

Yet Crystals require 90/s Nitric Acid and there are two ways to produce it, one that consumes around 11 Sodium Nitrate and one that consumes around 7. both are at a loss. What am I supposed to do? Productivity it?

Man, I just want silver. Been wanting it for 20-40 hours or how much, I lost count. It is so hard to run a base with 240 silver plate/min while constantly filling up warehouse after warehouse with lead and nickel.
Last edited by Zyrconia on Thu May 07, 2020 10:38 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by blahfasel2000 »

Zyrconia wrote:
Thu May 07, 2020 9:15 am
Yet Crystals require 90/s Nitric Acid and there are two ways to produce it, one that consumes around 11 Sodium Nitrate and one that consumes around 7. both are at a loss. What am I supposed to do? Productivity it?
Supplement it with nitric acid from nitrogen from air separation. Nitric acid is the easiest acid to come by literally out of thin air (it requires some metal catalyst unless you want to do some massive blue algae farming, but that only consumes a tiny fraction of your ore).
Zyrconia wrote:
Thu May 07, 2020 9:15 am
Man, I just want silver. Been wanting it for 20-40 hours or how much, I lost count. It is so hard to run a base with 240 silver plate/s while constantly filling up warehouse after warehouse with lead and nickel.
What the heck are you doing with that much silver?

Anyway, if you want so much of one ore without all the others, then you have to do catalytic sorting, there's no way around it.

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by Zyrconia »

blahfasel2000 wrote:
Thu May 07, 2020 10:07 am
Supplement it with nitric acid from nitrogen from air separation. Nitric acid is the easiest acid to come by literally out of thin air (it requires some metal catalyst unless you want to do some massive blue algae farming, but that only consumes a tiny fraction of your ore).
Oh wow, thank you!

I missed that you can create Nitrogen Monoxide (the input to dioxide) from Green Metal catalysts too. And I do have blue algae.

Unfortunately I set up a large-ish Florite ore setup I don't need only for it to output extra Sodium Nitrate. I'll start using the method you described.
blahfasel2000 wrote:
Thu May 07, 2020 10:07 am
What the heck are you doing with that much silver?

Anyway, if you want so much of one ore without all the others, then you have to do catalytic sorting, there's no way around it.
Sorry, typo. 240 silver/minute. That is almost zero. It took me more than 1h to research the first blue science because of the silver bottleneck.

And yes, that's what I've been working towards ever since I started doing orange and then blue science. Only it is very slow since you need to build so many things and are seriously bottle-necked.

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by trionicb »

Tommo175 wrote:
Sat May 02, 2020 3:15 am
Didn’t think of the brick floor that’s a fantastic idea!
Also I think I am producing more crushed stone than I would be able to reasonably turn into mineral water and pump into the clarifier

Also is there anything useful to do with all the crushed stone that u would always eventually accumulate or is it just expected that u will have a extremely large amount if it?
Epic amounts of crushed stone is a hallmark of Angel's. You'll probably have more then you could ever need so at some point you'll need to void it.

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by Zyrconia »

OMG finally!

1080 silver/minute. A big step up from the original 240 and then the 360!

Now hopefully I only have minor bottlenecks, can research in peace and salvage this base because it became quite the unmanageable mess. That will be the hard part.
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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by MeduSalem »

trionicb wrote:
Thu May 07, 2020 2:12 pm
Epic amounts of crushed stone is a hallmark of Angel's. You'll probably have more then you could ever need so at some point you'll need to void it.
I kinda managed to run out of crushed stone entirely in BA and had a crushed stone bottleneck... because I never considered geode crushing.

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