Development and Discussion

Infinite Ores, Refining, Ore Processing ...

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Zyrconia
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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by Zyrconia »

Zyrconia wrote:
Wed Apr 22, 2020 9:23 pm
Hmmm, is there no way to get plastic without Bio?

It requires orange science which requires plastic. A loop.
Also bio-plastic from trees is a trap. Don't go for it!

You need 1 swamp tree for one plastic producer, they are limited like swamp gardens, but there is no handy tech to get more with a 5% chance, not at the stage where you need the first plastic.

Also, I'm in a desert bordering on temperate areas. I drove around for more than 1h trying to find a single swamp tree. My map setting allow for this but forget about it with bitter expansion or a death world.

Next, I'll try plastic from plants...

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by Zyrconia »

MeduSalem wrote:
Wed Apr 22, 2020 9:05 pm
Zyrconia wrote:
Wed Apr 22, 2020 7:53 pm
That method with the Slag is not cheating at all. That's the way to supplement your production if it is not enough.
Well true. It is within the possibilities of the mod. :D

But it isn't exactly the fine and clean method either. It surely messes up the production statistics of fluids when there is like this huge Oxygen and Hydrogen production and venting just to get more Slag.

I think there could be an additional recipe somewhere just to get stone in a more reliable way.
Well back in the day when I had a good Angel's base, I used ridiculous amounts of slag in mid to end-game, to get catalysts. You know where those came from :).

This base, as soon as I research it, I'll test and see if if thermal water is still an option and if it is still good.

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by MeduSalem »

Zyrconia wrote:
Wed Apr 22, 2020 9:23 pm
Hmmm, is there no way to get plastic without Bio?

It requires orange science which requires plastic. A loop.
I kinda still have to look into it in a new playthrough eventually. I am currently expanding/reworking my existing base to incorporate Angel's Industries... and there I already established the oil/gas industry plastic production a looong, looong time ago. Can't even remember anymore how the early game used to be back then.

I use the bio stuff mostly only to get the resin, cellulose fibre and paper though... and I am still not sure if what I am doing is even anywhere efficient after 2-3 years now because there are so many ways to do it. :lol:

The bio stuff is what I am least experienced with because it feels like a completely different level of complexity.


Zyrconia wrote:
Thu Apr 23, 2020 1:25 pm
Well back in the day when I had a good Angel's base, I used ridiculous amounts of slag in mid to end-game, to get catalysts. You know where those came from :).

This base, as soon as I research it, I'll test and see if if thermal water is still an option and if it is still good.
Yeah, I did that the first time around too. Tried to get all of the ore demand from catalyst sorting. Kinda ridiculous now that I think about it, yet doable.

Nowadays I use a a mixture of all available options to get ore... ALL classic sorting from crushed stuff to crystal stuff in a priority cascade... also ferric/cupric sorting especially for that juicy platinum ore, manganese ore and chrome ore, also crystallizing directly from crystal slurry with 40:40 % chance for two ores thingy... and least priority direct-to-specific-ore sorting using catalysts to fill up whatever gaps there are from the other methods.

I use some priority circuit or logistic network thresholds (depending how far into the game I am) to activate the lower priority stuff if the high priority sorting somehow can't meet up with the demand or if some output gets stalled because some other ore is not being used up fast enough.

That said I am not sure either if what I am doing there is efficient... because I never did any maths behind the ratios of what sorting methods are the best way to obtain each ore... even though I might do an excel spreadsheet at some point.



Tbh currently with Angel's industries enabled I am more annoyed about the Bob's legacy tiered items like Tungsten-Carbide plates and Nitinol Plates/Gears and Bearing Rings etc. The longer I play with Angel's industries enabled the more I really start to hate those bob's legacy tiered ingredients. I had to put extra legacy machinery there to get the stuff and they stick out like a sore thumb from the other production lines... because all lower tiered items/machinery recipes are already updated to need Angel's Industries blocks as ingredients, but the high tier bob items like Assembler 5-6 etc and all that still need what is left of the Bob's plates and intermediates. :lol:

The Tungsten-Carbide plates could perfectly be just normal Angel's Tungsten plates. And the Nitinol stuff just normal Titanium plates... and use Titanium-themed items for Tier 5 and Tungsten themed items for Tier 6 bob's items or whatever they consider higher-tier. And scrap the Nitinol gears/bearings etc. And/or update to use Angel's blocks entirely even for late tier bob's machinery/items... because there are T5 blocks of most blocks anyway.

But not only that... every time I deconstruct something I get a crap ton of those bob's items back into inventory/logistic network... and there is not that much use for them unlike the angel's blocks which eventually get used by science production or something entirely different.

Also since most bob's high tier items/machinery requires a lower tier variant of the same item to be crafted... I always get the lower tier items back on deconstruction. For example yesterday I deconstructed a ton of T4 Power poles because I moved an entire production line somewhere else on the map and I got a ton of T3 power poles as a result... and then I accidentally placed those T3 power poles all over the factory instead of T4 ones and eventually wondered why they don't reach that far only to realize my mistake two hours later and then I couldn't remember every instance where I placed the wrong poles. I think that is another reason why I think that using angel's blocks entirely would be the better option.

The re-usability of the angel's blocks is what I like the most about Angel's industries. It is similar and more sophisticated to one of the ideas/concepts I suggested a few years back with modularity of machines in the suggestions board for vanilla game but the devs obviously never picked it up because it probably and understandably seemed too complex for the standard game.

But it still is alpha, so I can't be mad about it. :)

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by brysamo »

So I'm experiencing a weird issue with transporting molten glass by train (and honestly I'm not sure if the issue lies within Angel's or Bob's).

1 - Only molten fluids are affected
I thought this was just an issue with molten glass but it was the only molten fluid I was transporting. tried it with a few others and same deal.
2 - My train only fills if I put it to manual. I've tried every auto condition, only manual makes it actually fill. When on auto, it will fill with 400 units, and then stop
3 - The first time I did this it just showed the train as 1 single tank (i, displayed 400k units when full). Now it shows each wagon separately
https://i.imgur.com/Suf17WT.jpg
4 - Destroying the train and rebuilding it didn't work
5 - Making a brand new train didn't work
6 - Destroying the whole station and all fluid didn't work
7 - The casters on the bottom making glass panes work fine
8 - Getting rid of the petrochem mod didn't work (but before i did that I tried the petrochem wagon, didn't work)

I should also add I'm not running the latest update of Angel's or Bob's because I don't want to reconfigure my factory to deal with RTGs that Bob's added for satellites this late in the game, but to troubleshoot I did update and the issue remained.
This was working perfectly fine when I first built it. I transported millions of units with no issues (there have been a bunch of updates to both Angel's and Bob's since then).

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by Zyrconia »

MeduSalem wrote:
Thu Apr 23, 2020 2:27 pm
...snip...
Wow, there is a lot to unpack there, especially regarding 1toN sorting, but I don't want to get sidetracked and instead let's focus on blocks.

At first I didn't like them and was considering turning off the option (and seeing if the base can be recovered), but now I'm 75 hours in and feel like I'm starting to understand them.

And the feel like a really good idea. The problem is not that blocks are bad, they are great, but they get added on top of Bob's complexity and the results can be cumbersome.

So let's go though this.

Problem 1: The build everything

One of the big problems of A+B is the building hell. If you want to set up a build everything, making most of the buildings, and you do need most, since they upgrade, you end up with 120+ assemblers. I had several bases with two huge grids, each 8x8 or 9x9 assemblers, one for buildings, one for logistics and misc.

This is bad because:
- it is big but not particularly interesting
- it takes a lot of time to build and I personally found that I'm tweaking and upgrading my build everything constantly
- it is hard to navigate and find one particular item
- you end up with ton of junk in you inventory and need a huge inventory, otherwise every 5 minutes you are returning to base
- it becomes at least twice as large and total chaos if you do it with belts, so you are strong armed a bit into bots, otherwise you end up with an un-aesthetic un-symmetrical.

Solution: Blocks

How far should we go: all the way!

Basically, in Angel's Industries, one could have easily designed the mod to have a few blocks and otherwise use random bits of pieces, like circuits and pipes to craft buildings. So if a building took 10 construction block and 10 electronics blocks, one could have approximated that as 20+ construction blocks and 10 circuits.

This is not what we got, but instead got specialized blocks.

So I'm thinking that most items (if not all) that you construct to place down in you base should be made out of blocks exclusivelly.

This way, you can keep a stack of each on hand and hand craft everything.

Don't want to hand craft and want to make a build everything? As and example, let's say that you have 30 buildings in a tier of tech (5 general production,5 sorting 5 smelting, etc). All you need to do is put down 30 assemblers in a row. Or a more manageable 5x5 or something.

This has the advantages:
- it is small
- it is easy to navigate and find stuff
- if you then want to upgrade to the next tier, all you need to do is clear the belts, feed them to the next tier of blocks and funnel them to you original assemblers after you changed the recipes. The build everything does not grow too fast, you add anew building once in a while.

This works well but I'm having some problems:
- inventory can still be a mess. I think these blocks should stack to 1000, or at least have the option to. This way you could walk around with under 10 slots in you inventory and be able to hand craft everything.
- I think the time to craft the building should be factored into the block. There is no good reason to make people build a large block assembly only to have to wait 5 seconds for a building. Maybe even 0.5 is too much. Alternatively one can use Crafting speed research for a similar bonus.
- the Bob's buildings

When talking about the Bob's building, I for one like Bob's mods and I think it adds a few great ideas which should be preserved. I can get to this in a later post detailing what they do well and what should be preserved.

But here is the good part: Bob only ads a relatively low amount of buildings: with assemblers, circuit assemblers, miners and poles you covered most of what is needed.

We need to start small if needed, but update these recipes, removing the need to upgrade tiers.

I spent some time looking over the source code and Angel's already updates the recipes.

So a first step would be fixing assemblers?

I'll do some and experiments and see what I can manage...

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by MeduSalem »

Zyrconia wrote:
Fri Apr 24, 2020 3:46 pm
MeduSalem wrote:
Thu Apr 23, 2020 2:27 pm
...snip...
Wow, there is a lot to unpack there, especially regarding 1toN sorting, but I don't want to get sidetracked [...]
Ah please do. I am interested in hearing an opinion about the ore sorting stuff because I really don't know what I am doing there at points even though I've been playing with the mod for 2 years already... ahahaha.
Zyrconia wrote:
Fri Apr 24, 2020 3:46 pm
[...] and instead let's focus on blocks.

[...]

We need to start small if needed, but update these recipes, removing the need to upgrade tiers.

[...]
Yeah, the upgrade stages of Bob's is what kinda interferes with Angel's Blocks (next to the left-over intermediate items like Nitinol and Tungsten Carbide stuff that Angel's Industry doesn't incorporate in the Blocks). So that is something that eventually should be addressed by Angel.

Remove the need to upgrade tiers and some of those late tier Bob's intermediate for Bob's buildings/items to slipstream the experience into something more consistent and use Angel's Blocks exclusively and most of my concerns/problems would be gone in an instant.



That said I don't know what Angel eventually has planned concerning his intermediate/finished items. If he plans to add his own set of themed assemblers/buildings eventually with Angel's Industries like in the Resource Refining, Metal Smelting&Casting and replace the default assemblers/bob's assemblers anyway. Would be cool but I don't know if there is something planned like it.

The main difference between Bob's and Angel's is that Bob's resource savings come from additonal tiers of productivity modules and upgradeable tiers of buildings, while Angel tries to make the recipes and crafting stages more complex to get the most out of them. Those different design philosophies kinda don't stack very well in late game. I can see it with being constantly out of stone because I don't consume enough intermediate items since I put too many Productivity modules in them. And I don't really know what to do about it. I kinda find the concepts of using modules nice, but there is this obvious conflict there. :lol:



So I kinda would like to play without Bob's at this point but there are several things that Bob's Mods have that Angel's lack .

The Nuclear with the Thorium/Deuterium path has grown on to me and is one of the reasons I can't remove Bob's Ores because it removes Thorium and I can't remove Bob's intermediates because it removes both the Thorium and Deuterium path from Angel's.

Not to forget that doing so while continuing to use only some aspects of bob's not only wrecks most of Bob's mods but also Angel's parts as well because overrides become weird and stuff.

So there is only two 3 ways to play... Full BobAngels or Full Bob's or Full Angel's. Despite their "modularity" of their mods there is nothing in between those extremes without breaking something. So one kinda has to live with the stuff that one actually doesn't want.

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by lovely_santa »

I've been busy irl with university, so prepair for a long post :roll:
Rue99 wrote:
Sun Apr 12, 2020 3:36 pm
... I'd love to see the heavy barreling pump in a mod all of its own - I play all manner of mod packs, not all of which are compatible with Angels, and I've not found anything remotely as aesthetically appealing!
Glad you like the graphics, but as a stand alone, will not happen for the foreseeable future.
danyax wrote:
Wed Apr 15, 2020 11:22 am
live22morrow wrote:
Wed Apr 15, 2020 10:13 am
danyax wrote:
Mon Apr 13, 2020 3:40 pm
I wonder why modules research (lvl 1-8) always require basic circuit boards? I think to make modules progression more meaningful tiers 3-5 and 6-8 should use logic and processor boards. It would also perfectly match with B&A play, where new type of crystals are added - splinters/shards/crystal. Now once you set up massive splinter production (quite complex chain), you are god to go for all modules research till level 8. If above ideal is implemented, it would require also massive production of shards and crystals.
The boards themselves require the components. T1-2 require splinters (circuit board), T3-5 require shards (logic board), and T6-8 require crystals (processor board). Unless you're talking about the actual tech research which only requires the circuit boards, but that's more likely so that the module lab doesn't need to have 17 different slots.
I am talking exactly about tech research which only requires the circuit boards. Research is the only thing that requires massive builds if you play on high tech multiplier. Module production itself has very limited consumption of shards and crystals.
The reason why they use currently only the 1st tier for the technology is because of the huge amount of inputs the lab would have, as live22morrow mentioned.

Assuming you don't play with a tech multiplier, the main use for your modules would be in your actual build, so the tech is rather minimal compared to the amount of modules you use. Look for example at a mk8 speed module that requires a full mk7 module + 10 extra processor boards. In total for a mk8 you need 3 circuit boards + 12 logic boards + 24 processing boards. I would call this already quite a lot for a single module, assuming you put 6 modules/beacon and probably another 6 modules/assembler, you'll have quite a count already.

To not clutter your crafting menu with just extra labs that are used for 1 or 2 researches, keeping them all in 1 lab with the basic modules seems fine to me tbf... To account for tech multipliers, we could add some extra module labs for the different tiers, but this will be quite low on the priority list.
Maric wrote:
Mon Apr 13, 2020 4:45 pm
Just tried to play a save where i had a huge self sustaining thing with acres and acres and acres of greenhouses going on. The new sawblades thing completely wrecks that. Soooo i will not be using angels bio stuff anymore ... any one know of a mod where i can have a big investment of space and materials to get a low but steady stream of energy out that does not consume finite ressources?
I am sorry to hear that, they do not use a lot of iron, especially when you go further and make a self sustainable crystal farm, you can even improve your sawblades to use almost no iron at all! If you are concerned about finite resources, you can always play with the infinite ore mod, and in combination with the ore remover mod, you can remove infinite patches that you don't want.
Wildejackson wrote:
Tue Apr 14, 2020 5:28 am
I know this is really nit-picky but can the "transistor" component from industries please be renamed to a capacitor? I can ignore that you cant make transistors from just wire and iron plates, but a component with ONLY TWO LEGS?? Insanity //rant-over
Was bugging me as well, is now renamed to capacitor.
Coffee Daemon wrote:
Sun Apr 19, 2020 10:32 pm
So perhaps I'm being dumb but I just cant find a way of getting rid of hydrogen. I've just gotten up to steel on an BA playthrough. For steel I need oxygen and water separation seems to be the way to go, except I cant even void hydrogen without a flare stack? And I just cant see a use for it either at this early stage.

EDIT: Turns out fluid boilers can also burn Hydrogen. I hope this is intentional.
You should have access to the small petro tank that you can use to store it, or pick up and replace if you don't want to accumulate it. If I recall correctly, oxygen from air separation (red science) produces less byproducts versus the water electrolysis. That's my comment towards angels only maps. When you play with bobs mods, you can use the fluid boiler, and yes, it is intended that you can burn hydrogen then.
cdowns59 wrote:
Mon Apr 20, 2020 1:23 pm
... The current compost recipe takes any single bio item, be it wood, algae, a crop, etc. Real life composting doesn't work like that - you need a mix of green waste and brown waste. So perhaps:
  • the original composting recipes could be nerfed to be low efficiency, probabilistic recipes ("mulching").
  • advanced, far more efficient composting recipes added which take multiple inputs, perhaps via an intermediate step to form green and brown waste to reduce the combinations of compost recipes.
Doing this would encourage players to explore the range of farming options rather than on just a few.
Compost isn't meant to become productive, it's meant to be a bio/organic void like the flare is a chemical void and the liquifier a water void, so allowing a single item as input is a must-have. It's not too bad to create farms dedicated for creating compost either, so it feels balanced as it is?
cdowns59 wrote:
Mon Apr 20, 2020 1:23 pm
I found that waiting for desert gardens to produce an extra desert garden in 5% of cases (for seeds for the nut-producing crop with 5% probability for the blazing puffer breeding) was a very slow process (I only had two desert gardens within a large area of my spawn compared to dozens of temperate gardens) and it seems weird that only fertiliser is needed to do this (whereas sand and saline are also needed to grow the individual crops). I don't think the alien plant life samples are used beyond a handful of research technologies and construction of advanced farms, but large amounts of gardens are useful for garden mutations (I can't see any swamp gardens within a large area of my spawn), so perhaps:
  • boost the output of the desert gardening but also require a substrate and water (and same for the other gardens too)
  • allow gardens to also be made from the constituent crops plus a substrate - this is where the seeds come from initially, and prevents a huge number of mostly unusuable alien plant life samples being stockpiled while gathering gardens for mutations.
  • and/or add another use of alien plant life samples (e.g. mutations, breeding)
Thanks
I do like the idea of an alternative way of growing gardens. Here my idea:
  • For red science, use 1 plant life samples and some alien goo to grow a random type of garden, at a low rate such that for 32 samples of input you have less than 1 garden output. This way you have some loss, so you're not able to duplicate gardens using this method.
  • For green science, use 32 plant life samples fertilizer and alien goo to grow 1 + 5% of the same garden type, the same recipe as there is now
  • For endgame (blue+ science), use some plant life samples together with some tree seeds and nuclear fertilizer and lots of alien goo to have a chance of growing the special trees, with no garden output anymore:
      • General tree seed gives a X% chance of any special tree
      • Specialized tree seeds give 2*X% chance of that single special tree (double the chance, but only 1/3 of trees, so net 2/3 as productive as the general seed)
With this tweak, it will be easier to obtain other gardens other than deserts in seablock, and allow you to mutate gardens early game without duplicating any, while keeping the requirement of exploring for gardens and/or trees.
MeduSalem wrote:
Wed Apr 22, 2020 5:22 pm
Zyrconia wrote:
Tue Apr 21, 2020 9:41 pm
So which is the intended way to get concrete/reinforced concrete?

There is the vanilla/Bob way and the Angel way based on molted concrete.

Are they meant to coexist and be up to personal choice or is there a "meant to" way to get concrete, like with wood, where the Angel meant to way is to use Bio, but you can "shortcut" it and get Bob's Greenhouse?
Honestly when there is a choice like that (which happens at several places) I usually go with Angel's choice. It kinda is often the better and more interesting/involved choice.

In case of the concrete variants of recipes it seems to be some kind of vanilla override for the sake of probably having concrete tiles early on. Most other concrete products require molten concrete anyway.

Inside of Angel's there is usually a progression path anyway... and the icons with I, II, III, IV in the top left corner, etc usually tell you which one is the best/latest available... and when I need an item I usually look at that icon and then go back from there to establish all necessary ingredients.
Since recent, the concrete bricks have a new tile. So in short:
  • Concrete (the vanilla tile) can be obtained using the vanilla recipe, which uses stone and iron. Angel introduces an alternative that has an option (cement 1) to use silicon instead and an option (cement 2) to use a mix of both.
  • Hazard concrete and the refined versions come from the concrete mentioned in the above bullet point ^^
  • Reinforced Concrete Bricks gives the tutorial grid tile, which has a different look to it, more tile-like looking.
  • Concrete Bricks currently give the same tutorial tile as the Reinforced version. If possible, I want to bring back the rough looking square look of concrete tiles as the base game had a while ago, and use the rough looking one as not reinforced version.
MeduSalem wrote:
Wed Apr 22, 2020 5:22 pm
...
That said I feel you there. Sometimes the left-over vanilla/bob's alternative/legacy recipes can be irritating, especially later when there is a ton of recipes in every tab.

It is vanilla and bob's that kinda adds a lot of mess. Nothing against the dev's or bobingabout but it is true somehow. Angel's Mods are a lot more organized and cleaner in structure. :lol:

It is also obvious that they haven't decided on the fate of some legacy/alternative items from Vanilla/Bob's yet. If they want to replace/hide them entirely or not.

Like for example bob's distillery doesn't even show a single recipe. Could hide the machine entirely if there is no use for it.
Or bob's barreling pumps when Angel's has its own.
Or why they are keeping the vanilla/bob's furnaces when they have a combined 9 different machines in metallurgy smelting & casting that could probably do absolutely everything.
Don't forget about mod compatibility! Other mods might only use vanilla stuff and not angels. For this reason we try to provide the vanilla recipes as an alternative and make them blend in. For the concrete we came up with adding new tiles as a result, so they are not redundant and/or provide alternative recipes to not require some other ingredient that could be used more useful elsewhere (I mentioned it in my bullet points).

Bobs barreling pumps should be disabled what so ever. Similarly, bobs distillery should be obsolete now (also recently). With the release of base v0.18.20, we can now hide settings. So we'll add this feature to hide some bob settings in order to hide most of these obsolete parts in the future, once we are sure they are obsolete. We rather have a building that is obsolete than a recipe that is missing a building and preventing you from progressing. It also comes with complications, for example, we cannot just hide vanilla items, for that reason, we'll have to look into reskinning the vanilla chem plant and hide angels version instead.
MeduSalem wrote:
Wed Apr 22, 2020 5:49 pm
Zyrconia wrote:
Wed Apr 22, 2020 5:45 pm
Bob' version has the advantage of allowing you to recycle all your stone bricks, which you have hundreds of thousands by now...
Well for some reason I am almost always out of stone in late game BA. It is like my most hated enemy. I don't know exactly why this happens. Probably I am not using enough ores in late game anymore to create crushed stone because at that point I put heavy use to productivity modules to cut back on CPU and resource demand.

So probably I eventually put an arrow to my own knee when it comes to stone production when doing that... eventually the stone usage of later crafting stages doesn't scale down any further while the resource demand of early crafting stages in the cascade still shrinks... eventually the break-even point is not met anymore and I am at net loss of stone... and there not being a viable way to mass-produce more except with some ugly cheating with water electrolysis to get slag... and Speed module the crap out of it to meet the demand.

That said I recently started over and for the first time I am also using Angel's Industries... and it changed a lot in the science production and necessary resources so I still have to see how it turns out this time.
You are correct that you are short on stone late game. I bet you still use slag slurry to make mineral sludge at that point. You should try and look into using some crushed geodes, which produce crushed stone. The Crystal dust you can recycle into crystal slurry and make mineral sludge from that. Of course you have to mix and balance, for example you can create slag slurry from not crushing it to balance out the sulfur consumption on that sulfur loop, and then create some from slag slurry to even out the excess stone when you have that in great quantities. In the end game it's a lot more about using different systems at once, mixing different ways to balance out the byproducts. The setups will grow, and if you don't feel like it's something for you, you can always vent something and make it easier on yourself. There is no right/wrong way to play!
Zyrconia wrote:
Wed Apr 22, 2020 9:23 pm
Hmmm, is there no way to get plastic without Bio?

It requires orange science which requires plastic. A loop.
Industries requires bio, so you can't play it without bio, I'm sure you have bio installed. And yes, you require to make an early bio plastic setup for orange science. Mid game you'll move towards a petrochem setup and engame you'll supply some more from bio again. Your setup is not wasted, as you'll divert the build to wood production at that point. Or just keep it as a top up feed of plastic on top of your petrochem build.
Zyrconia wrote:
Thu Apr 23, 2020 7:50 am
Zyrconia wrote:
Wed Apr 22, 2020 9:23 pm
Hmmm, is there no way to get plastic without Bio?

It requires orange science which requires plastic. A loop.
Also bio-plastic from trees is a trap. Don't go for it!

You need 1 swamp tree for one plastic producer, they are limited like swamp gardens, but there is no handy tech to get more with a 5% chance, not at the stage where you need the first plastic.

Also, I'm in a desert bordering on temperate areas. I drove around for more than 1h trying to find a single swamp tree. My map setting allow for this but forget about it with bitter expansion or a death world.

Next, I'll try plastic from plants...
I've had the feedback after the balancing update that plastic from gardens is quite good, and they are competing as alternative to petrochem. I do know gardens are hard to get, so see some earlier responses I've made in this post for some ideas to obtain all garden types early game.
MeduSalem wrote:
Thu Apr 23, 2020 2:27 pm
...
Tbh currently with Angel's industries enabled I am more annoyed about the Bob's legacy tiered items like Tungsten-Carbide plates and Nitinol Plates/Gears and Bearing Rings etc. The longer I play with Angel's industries enabled the more I really start to hate those bob's legacy tiered ingredients. I had to put extra legacy machinery there to get the stuff and they stick out like a sore thumb from the other production lines... because all lower tiered items/machinery recipes are already updated to need Angel's Industries blocks as ingredients, but the high tier bob items like Assembler 5-6 etc and all that still need what is left of the Bob's plates and intermediates. :lol:

The Tungsten-Carbide plates could perfectly be just normal Angel's Tungsten plates. And the Nitinol stuff just normal Titanium plates... and use Titanium-themed items for Tier 5 and Tungsten themed items for Tier 6 bob's items or whatever they consider higher-tier. And scrap the Nitinol gears/bearings etc. And/or update to use Angel's blocks entirely even for late tier bob's machinery/items... because there are T5 blocks of most blocks anyway.

But not only that... every time I deconstruct something I get a crap ton of those bob's items back into inventory/logistic network... and there is not that much use for them unlike the angel's blocks which eventually get used by science production or something entirely different.
In my opinion the alloys (nitinol, ...) are not that bad to make, they just need some better usage. I do agree that bob bearings etc are quite obsolete, and I do want to remove them in the long run. Also keep in mind that there are still hidden advanced production blocks that are not yet introduced into the game (from tier 3 and higher). I plan on having those blocks require more dedicated recipes, which I do not know the ingredients of just yet. I do know I want to use more of the exotic bars on them where possible. Mainly waiting a bit on balancing how the playthroughs are going now and seeing what could be used more in the future.
MeduSalem wrote:
Thu Apr 23, 2020 2:27 pm
Also since most bob's high tier items/machinery requires a lower tier variant of the same item to be crafted... I always get the lower tier items back on deconstruction. For example yesterday I deconstructed a ton of T4 Power poles because I moved an entire production line somewhere else on the map and I got a ton of T3 power poles as a result... and then I accidentally placed those T3 power poles all over the factory instead of T4 ones and eventually wondered why they don't reach that far only to realize my mistake two hours later and then I couldn't remember every instance where I placed the wrong poles. I think that is another reason why I think that using angel's blocks entirely would be the better option.

The re-usability of the angel's blocks is what I like the most about Angel's industries. It is similar and more sophisticated to one of the ideas/concepts I suggested a few years back with modularity of machines in the suggestions board for vanilla game but the devs obviously never picked it up because it probably and understandably seemed too complex for the standard game.

But it still is alpha, so I can't be mad about it. :)
The issue about returning the earlier tiers is, if I disassemble the lower tiers as well, then your inventory could explode, just because of the huge amount of blocks you would get in return (imagine picking up a tier 6 that would return all ingredients of a tier 6,5,4,3,2 and 1! That would just mean you have to keep your inventory half full all the time while deconstructing/designing something new...
brysamo wrote:
Thu Apr 23, 2020 11:41 pm
So I'm experiencing a weird issue with transporting molten glass by train (and honestly I'm not sure if the issue lies within Angel's or Bob's).

1 - Only molten fluids are affected
I thought this was just an issue with molten glass but it was the only molten fluid I was transporting. tried it with a few others and same deal.
2 - My train only fills if I put it to manual. I've tried every auto condition, only manual makes it actually fill. When on auto, it will fill with 400 units, and then stop
3 - The first time I did this it just showed the train as 1 single tank (i, displayed 400k units when full). Now it shows each wagon separately
https://i.imgur.com/Suf17WT.jpg
4 - Destroying the train and rebuilding it didn't work
5 - Making a brand new train didn't work
6 - Destroying the whole station and all fluid didn't work
7 - The casters on the bottom making glass panes work fine
8 - Getting rid of the petrochem mod didn't work (but before i did that I tried the petrochem wagon, didn't work)

I should also add I'm not running the latest update of Angel's or Bob's because I don't want to reconfigure my factory to deal with RTGs that Bob's added for satellites this late in the game, but to troubleshoot I did update and the issue remained.
This was working perfectly fine when I first built it. I transported millions of units with no issues (there have been a bunch of updates to both Angel's and Bob's since then).
My best bet, with keeping the past updates in mind... Are the different fluids in the tanks for example, are they the same temperature? My guess would be they are a bit too cold, and when the train starts filling up, the tank is draining, so new hot fluid enters and the temperature can rise, when it bumps the temperature, the train stops filling? If this is the case, you should report this to the base game, as it is meant to equalize the temperature, so the fluid in the fluid wagon should rise as well, instead of stop filling. I did change the temperature on the smelting fluids to represent real life melting points, as requested on /r/factorio a while back.
Zyrconia wrote:
Fri Apr 24, 2020 3:46 pm
MeduSalem wrote:
Thu Apr 23, 2020 2:27 pm
...snip...
Wow, there is a lot to unpack there,
...

Problem 1: The build everything

One of the big problems of A+B is the building hell. If you want to set up a build everything, making most of the buildings, and you do need most, since they upgrade, you end up with 120+ assemblers. I had several bases with two huge grids, each 8x8 or 9x9 assemblers, one for buildings, one for logistics and misc.

This is bad because:
- it is big but not particularly interesting
- it takes a lot of time to build and I personally found that I'm tweaking and upgrading my build everything constantly
- it is hard to navigate and find one particular item
- you end up with ton of junk in you inventory and need a huge inventory, otherwise every 5 minutes you are returning to base
- it becomes at least twice as large and total chaos if you do it with belts, so you are strong armed a bit into bots, otherwise you end up with an un-aesthetic un-symmetrical.

Solution: Blocks

How far should we go: all the way!

Basically, in Angel's Industries, one could have easily designed the mod to have a few blocks and otherwise use random bits of pieces, like circuits and pipes to craft buildings. So if a building took 10 construction block and 10 electronics blocks, one could have approximated that as 20+ construction blocks and 10 circuits.

This is not what we got, but instead got specialized blocks.

So I'm thinking that most items (if not all) that you construct to place down in you base should be made out of blocks exclusivelly.

This way, you can keep a stack of each on hand and hand craft everything.

Don't want to hand craft and want to make a build everything? As and example, let's say that you have 30 buildings in a tier of tech (5 general production,5 sorting 5 smelting, etc). All you need to do is put down 30 assemblers in a row. Or a more manageable 5x5 or something.

This has the advantages:
- it is small
- it is easy to navigate and find stuff
- if you then want to upgrade to the next tier, all you need to do is clear the belts, feed them to the next tier of blocks and funnel them to you original assemblers after you changed the recipes. The build everything does not grow too fast, you add anew building once in a while.
In my last update I did (before uni kicked in) I did make construction robots red science so you can already use them for early construction purposes and the mk1 logistics robots are green science. So it should be fairly trivial to start progressing through red science faster and already have a logistics network up and running by green science. This feels an appropriate time to set up building automation. I do not see blocks as part of the mall, as you'll use them for science, so they should have a dedicated build, and use them as in put to your mall.

The goal is to let all buildings use blocks. If you look at the angel buildings this is already the case, since those have a custom override build into them. We cannot do that for bobs mods. We do however have a replacement script that replaces the ingredients of those recipes with equivalent blocks (and components). The goal is to get this script more or less working for all (vanilla+bobs) ingredients, such that it is compatible to other mods.

One exception on this rule are belts and inserters. These will only use components, as most players have a dedicated build for these anyway that feed 1 tier into another. In this case it is acceptable for them to use components instead of different blocks. This has also to do with blocks are quite expensive and would be too costly for belts and/or inserters. For this reason we see those as not buildings for now. I do however plan to have a replacement script for them. Of course we cannot do that before the general script is in more or less a finished state.
Zyrconia wrote:
Fri Apr 24, 2020 3:46 pm
This works well but I'm having some problems:
- inventory can still be a mess. I think these blocks should stack to 1000, or at least have the option to. This way you could walk around with under 10 slots in you inventory and be able to hand craft everything.
- I think the time to craft the building should be factored into the block. There is no good reason to make people build a large block assembly only to have to wait 5 seconds for a building. Maybe even 0.5 is too much. Alternatively one can use Crafting speed research for a similar bonus.
- the Bob's buildings

When talking about the Bob's building, I for one like Bob's mods and I think it adds a few great ideas which should be preserved. I can get to this in a later post detailing what they do well and what should be preserved.

But here is the good part: Bob only ads a relatively low amount of buildings: with assemblers, circuit assemblers, miners and poles you covered most of what is needed.
I do like the idea of blocks stacking to 1000, I might make that even a default and adding a setting, similar like with tiles to stack between 200 and maybe 10K? That could also mean I could disassemble recipes fully, so that mk4 power pole mentioned above could return ingredients from the mk4, mk3, mk2 and mk1! As well as the idea to let buildings only have a crafting time of 0.5 or even 0.1 second. I do want to scale up the construction time on the higher tier blocks, so it's not 5 seconds for all tiers, but more like 1 second for the mk0 blocks, 2.5s for the mk1, 5s for mk2, 8s for mk3, 15s for mk4 and 25s maybe for the mk5.

As mentioned above, bobs blocks are lower priority, but still on the list, we want the replacement script working first before going more in detail into bob buildings. For sure give ideas of what should be preserved!
MeduSalem wrote:
Fri Apr 24, 2020 5:39 pm
Yeah, the upgrade stages of Bob's is what kinda interferes with Angel's Blocks (next to the left-over intermediate items like Nitinol and Tungsten Carbide stuff that Angel's Industry doesn't incorporate in the Blocks). So that is something that eventually should be addressed by Angel.

Remove the need to upgrade tiers and some of those late tier Bob's intermediate for Bob's buildings/items to slipstream the experience into something more consistent and use Angel's Blocks exclusively and most of my concerns/problems would be gone in an instant.
I didn't mention this explicit in this post yet, but removing the need to upgrade machines from tier to tier and only use the intermediates as upgrades only works for buildings. This is our goal in the long run. However, as already mentioned, stuff like belts, inserters, power poles etc that do not use blocks, only use intermediates, those will still require upgrade to upgrade. The big question is still, should they return components or not... inserters and belts do not, but we're still debating if power poles, especially the big ones and substations are buildings or rather high quantity items that should not drop ingredients.
MeduSalem wrote:
Fri Apr 24, 2020 5:39 pm
That said I don't know what Angel eventually has planned concerning his intermediate/finished items. If he plans to add his own set of themed assemblers/buildings eventually with Angel's Industries like in the Resource Refining, Metal Smelting&Casting and replace the default assemblers/bob's assemblers anyway. Would be cool but I don't know if there is something planned like it.

The main difference between Bob's and Angel's is that Bob's resource savings come from additonal tiers of productivity modules and upgradeable tiers of buildings, while Angel tries to make the recipes and crafting stages more complex to get the most out of them. Those different design philosophies kinda don't stack very well in late game. I can see it with being constantly out of stone because I don't consume enough intermediate items since I put too many Productivity modules in them. And I don't really know what to do about it. I kinda find the concepts of using modules nice, but there is this obvious conflict there. :lol:
As far as I am aware there are no plans to add assemblers like bob does to angels. If you don't like to play with bobs, you can always add other mods like factorio extended, which do similar things. Since the tiered buildings is a big footprint in bobs, we don't want to replace bobs, but rather let both mods work together, similar as wel already (try to) do.

There are a few ways to make more stone, one of them is consume less stone, by using alternative methods or by combining a more productive method with a less productive one as I mentioned earlier in this post.

After all this, congratz for those who have read it all to the end :mrgreen: Stay safe and happy automating. Hotfix releases will stay to come out as needed, depending mainly about how the base game changes while we work on the next update of mainly industry and fixes all over the place.
You can find all my mods on the mod portal. Also helping on Arch666Angel's mods.
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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by MeduSalem »

Holy crap. What a monster post. And people tell me I am bad with Wall of texts. :lol:
lovely_santa wrote:
Fri Apr 24, 2020 8:06 pm
You are correct that you are short on stone late game. I bet you still use slag slurry to make mineral sludge at that point. You should try and look into using some crushed geodes, which produce crushed stone. The Crystal dust you can recycle into crystal slurry and make mineral sludge from that. Of course you have to mix and balance, for example you can create slag slurry from not crushing it to balance out the sulfur consumption on that sulfur loop, and then create some from slag slurry to even out the excess stone when you have that in great quantities. In the end game it's a lot more about using different systems at once, mixing different ways to balance out the byproducts. The setups will grow, and if you don't feel like it's something for you, you can always vent something and make it easier on yourself. There is no right/wrong way to play!
Well to be honest... yes. For the most part... I used a mixture of purified ore sorting and normal slag/mineral/crystal slurry priority/top-up/over-flow methods to create the brown/green/hybrid catalysts. That said I only make mineral slurry out of slag slurry or more specifically turn slag/stone into slag slurry if I would for some reason end up with too much of it (clogging outputs crusher outputs etc). But that never happens in endgame... so 99% of the time in endgame I was turning crystal slurry into mineral slurry and there is no slag slurry being produced at all. All of the slag/stone instead goes to stone brick production for block production and it still isn't enough by far.

But yeah it kinda never occurred to me that I could wash even more geodes and crush those geodes into crushed stone and then turn the crystal dust into crystal slurry. But I will definitely look into it over the weekend. :D
lovely_santa wrote:
Fri Apr 24, 2020 8:06 pm
In my opinion the alloys (nitinol, ...) are not that bad to make, they just need some better usage. I do agree that bob bearings etc are quite obsolete, and I do want to remove them in the long run. Also keep in mind that there are still hidden advanced production blocks that are not yet introduced into the game (from tier 3 and higher). I plan on having those blocks require more dedicated recipes, which I do not know the ingredients of just yet. I do know I want to use more of the exotic bars on them where possible. Mainly waiting a bit on balancing how the playthroughs are going now and seeing what could be used more in the future.
Yeah, I already saw some of the templates for the additional blocks in the inserter filter/request chest filters I believe, especially ones for the other Angel's mods like Chem/Smelting/etc.... So they are not entirely hidden and I know they are coming at some point eventually. :P

But yes if there were more "suitable" use to the bob's plates that could obviously change my opinion for the nitinol/tungsten-carbide etc stuff. For the most part is the lack of usage...

... the other part is that the production line to create those bob's extra-tier level plates kinda sticks out like a sore thumb. It doesn't look as beautiful as the rest of the Angel's smelting/casting lines. It is like that "yeah and here is the ugly Bob's rest" extra part of a couple of machines that do those things that I just don't know how to fit in properly all the way at the back of the line. :lol:

At least I am glad to hear the bearings stuff will be obsolete. Kinda doesn't fit into Angel's industry now that I played a while with it.
lovely_santa wrote:
Fri Apr 24, 2020 8:06 pm
The issue about returning the earlier tiers is, if I disassemble the lower tiers as well, then your inventory could explode, just because of the huge amount of blocks you would get in return (imagine picking up a tier 6 that would return all ingredients of a tier 6,5,4,3,2 and 1! That would just mean you have to keep your inventory half full all the time while deconstructing/designing something new...
lovely_santa wrote:
Fri Apr 24, 2020 8:06 pm
I didn't mention this explicit in this post yet, but removing the need to upgrade machines from tier to tier and only use the intermediates as upgrades only works for buildings. This is our goal in the long run. However, as already mentioned, stuff like belts, inserters, power poles etc that do not use blocks, only use intermediates, those will still require upgrade to upgrade. The big question is still, should they return components or not... inserters and belts do not, but we're still debating if power poles, especially the big ones and substations are buildings or rather high quantity items that should not drop ingredients.
So bob's machinery will eventually become all blocks only to craft/return, no previous tiers/other ingredients required? Well that is nice.

I think you could do the same for poles/inserters/etc though... require/return either only blocks or a mixture of blocks/intermediates or just intermediates, even the mixture of blocks/intermediates seems to be the best choice for relatively cheap items like inserters... I would welcome either... as long as it wouldn't require a T3 pole to craft a T4 pole or return the same on deconstruction. Or is there a technical limitation to the override system which I still don't get? :)

Because I kinda get sometimes annoyed of how my inventory fills up with previous tier poles/inserters on deconstruction. With so many items around I often pick the wrong tiered one from the inventory since I am a more visual guy and don't always read the item name. :lol:

Later I solve the issue with logistics bots carrying them away from my inventory immediately, but it kinda sucks having to enter the logistics requests twice... once for the item tier I actually want place and once for the previous tier to be returned to the mall storage in case I deconstruct.

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by Zyrconia »

Hi lovely_santa!

1. Plastic
lovely_santa wrote:
Fri Apr 24, 2020 8:06 pm

Industries requires bio, so you can't play it without bio, I'm sure you have bio installed. And yes, you require to make an early bio plastic setup for orange science. Mid game you'll move towards a petrochem setup and engame you'll supply some more from bio again. Your setup is not wasted, as you'll divert the build to wood production at that point. Or just keep it as a top up feed of plastic on top of your petrochem build.
Well, I spent between 6 and 8 hours trying to figure out plastic, including an hour long drive looking for gardens and swamp trees. Gardens I found, swamp tree not. And preparing for oil, only to get bamboozled. And creating a build for tree plastic, except for the seed extractor.

Looking at other people playing, it looks to me like RSO makes gardens and trees much rarer?

Anyway, the giant confusion with plastic is intentional?

If not, I'll look into it, but perhaps all plastic related sciences should be added under orange science, except for bio.

And so far my plastic bio-setup is completely isolated from wood. And I have a wood build.

And I need more playtesting, but I think we need a dump for compost. I'm not 100% sure but it may be impossible to not infintely but slowly gain compost from bio and some processes.

2. Warfare

I'm new to Angel's Industries and that made my playthough much slower. And I insisted on a grid. And my expectations from previous versions.

Long story short, by the time I got to some war science I needed two rows of turrets and all my iron went into ammo. Had to turn on peaceful, because after the first researches, you know what your reward is?

+10% damage, +10% shooting speed. Biters did not care about that. The rest of the upgrades are locked behind the next tier of science.

And you unlock walls, which requires a tier 2 block, something you wont have for quite some time. So no defending with walls as soon as you unlock them. By the time I turned of bitters, one evolved bitter would tear though multiple turrets on his own.

Maybe walls should be craftable as soon as you unlock them?

3. Back to the build everything

So let's distinguish between buildings, things you pick back up and get blocks and other entities, like inserters.

Back in the day, if you wanted to include Angel buildings into the build everything, like a sorting facility, you added an assembler for Mk1. When teching up, you added a new assembler for Mk2, that upgraded from Mk1. Same for Bob's, where Assembler 2 upgrades Assembler 1. The number of assemblers kept going up, reaching number of unique buildings times number of tiers.

With the new Angel's, you add an assembler for your mk1 sorting facility, and when you tech up, you change the recipe from mark1 to mk2.

The number of assemblers remains the same. This is good. But for Bob's the old behavior remains.

It is not enough for the script to convert the ingredients. It is not enough to get rid of "legacy" components. It also must go in, using hard coded lists, and remove the Assembler 1 as an ingredient from the Assembler 2 recipe. And the same for power poles. And everything. Not from solar IMHO.

We need an option for AI to completely disable upgrading for some buildings.

If it takes blocks no upgrade. If it takes components perhaps upgrade.

The list of Bob's items we need to cover is very small for starters: 6 assemblers, 3 electronics assemblers, 4? miners, 4 tiers of boilers.

By only removing the upgrade requirement from these 5 building types would greatly contribute to the smoothness and integration between Bob's and Angel's.

I looked over the code but so far found no function to remove a single item from a single recipe if it exists.

4. Mining returning ingredients
I keep going back and forth on this one, but ultimately, mining returning components is utterly infuriating.

Here is what happens a lot: you put down something and it is one tile off. You pick it up and it is gone. Now you need to wait 5 seconds to hand craft it.

I would call this unplayable yet for Picker Dollies, which allow you to shift.

Here is something that happens often: you order bots to deconstruct half your base. All the building are gone and your storage is full of components. You build everything kick into high gear, having to produce hundreds of buildings at once, you end up waiting minutes.

Instead of the bots finishing promptly.

Here is something that happens often: you put down a full build, then decide to move it by 2 tiles. 60 something flotation plants gone in an instant.

So basically blocks are good, mining returning components is a good idea ruined by the limitations of Factorio.

I wonder if some of those mods that deconstruct items and return ingredients wouldn't work with Angel's buildings. Need to test it. If now I'll gladly put all the old un-upgradable items in a chest and destroy it. It is not worth the pain of mining returning components.

Perhaps a script would allow for deconstruction of bulk items, like a burner type entity?

I'll turn off that option. Especially since I need to re-do all my smelting for like 6 ores.

5. We need to split the pump from all the barreling recipes. Two techs. Some people never barrel or only do it late game and no use destroying a full category from the menu with 100 barreling recipes...

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by brysamo »

lovely_santa wrote:
Fri Apr 24, 2020 8:06 pm
brysamo wrote:
Thu Apr 23, 2020 11:41 pm
So I'm experiencing a weird issue with transporting molten glass by train (and honestly I'm not sure if the issue lies within Angel's or Bob's).

1 - Only molten fluids are affected
I thought this was just an issue with molten glass but it was the only molten fluid I was transporting. tried it with a few others and same deal.
2 - My train only fills if I put it to manual. I've tried every auto condition, only manual makes it actually fill. When on auto, it will fill with 400 units, and then stop
3 - The first time I did this it just showed the train as 1 single tank (i, displayed 400k units when full). Now it shows each wagon separately
https://i.imgur.com/Suf17WT.jpg
4 - Destroying the train and rebuilding it didn't work
5 - Making a brand new train didn't work
6 - Destroying the whole station and all fluid didn't work
7 - The casters on the bottom making glass panes work fine
8 - Getting rid of the petrochem mod didn't work (but before i did that I tried the petrochem wagon, didn't work)

I should also add I'm not running the latest update of Angel's or Bob's because I don't want to reconfigure my factory to deal with RTGs that Bob's added for satellites this late in the game, but to troubleshoot I did update and the issue remained.
This was working perfectly fine when I first built it. I transported millions of units with no issues (there have been a bunch of updates to both Angel's and Bob's since then).
My best bet, with keeping the past updates in mind... Are the different fluids in the tanks for example, are they the same temperature? My guess would be they are a bit too cold, and when the train starts filling up, the tank is draining, so new hot fluid enters and the temperature can rise, when it bumps the temperature, the train stops filling? If this is the case, you should report this to the base game, as it is meant to equalize the temperature, so the fluid in the fluid wagon should rise as well, instead of stop filling. I did change the temperature on the smelting fluids to represent real life melting points, as requested on /r/factorio a while back.
That does seem to be the case. do you recall which version of Angel's had that update thrown in?
I'll report the bug in the main forum.

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by Zyrconia »

Zyrconia wrote:
Fri Apr 24, 2020 10:05 pm

I wonder if some of those mods that deconstruct items and return ingredients wouldn't work with Angel's buildings. Need to test it. If now I'll gladly put all the old un-upgradable items in a chest and destroy it. It is not worth the pain of mining returning components.

Perhaps a script would allow for deconstruction of bulk items, like a burner type entity?

I'll turn off that option. Especially since I need to re-do all my smelting for like 6 ores.
The Reverse Factory mod 100% works with Angel's buildings.

So here is my plan: turn off "mining returns components" option, be free to move around the base as much as you want and add a small section that recycles buildings from previous tiers and feeds them to the logistic network.

This way we can have the best of both worlds: versatile reusable blocks and convenient bots and base building.

The only minor inconvenience is that you sometimes need to clear out your storage chests.

Combine this with blocks stacking up to 1000 or more and perhaps we finally have a free inventory?

PS: Since The Reverse Factory mod works (but I'll play test it to make sure), maybe we can use some of the less used Angel graphics on it to make it feel more in line with the base.

PS PS: I proposed a while ago that the "old" Angel's Roboport skin be made available as an override to vanilla/Bob Roboports. The Angel roboport looked so good, but after a stage I never used it because of it's tiny range.

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by lovely_santa »

Zyrconia wrote:
Fri Apr 24, 2020 10:05 pm
1. Plastic
lovely_santa wrote:
Fri Apr 24, 2020 8:06 pm

Industries requires bio, so you can't play it without bio, I'm sure you have bio installed. And yes, you require to make an early bio plastic setup for orange science. Mid game you'll move towards a petrochem setup and engame you'll supply some more from bio again. Your setup is not wasted, as you'll divert the build to wood production at that point. Or just keep it as a top up feed of plastic on top of your petrochem build.
Well, I spent between 6 and 8 hours trying to figure out plastic, including an hour long drive looking for gardens and swamp trees. Gardens I found, swamp tree not. And preparing for oil, only to get bamboozled. And creating a build for tree plastic, except for the seed extractor.

Looking at other people playing, it looks to me like RSO makes gardens and trees much rarer?

Anyway, the giant confusion with plastic is intentional?

If not, I'll look into it, but perhaps all plastic related sciences should be added under orange science, except for bio.

And so far my plastic bio-setup is completely isolated from wood. And I have a wood build.

And I need more playtesting, but I think we need a dump for compost. I'm not 100% sure but it may be impossible to not infintely but slowly gain compost from bio and some processes.
Yes, plastic should be locked behind orange science, except from orange circuits, which is the introduction into orange science.
Zyrconia wrote:
Fri Apr 24, 2020 10:05 pm
2. Warfare

I'm new to Angel's Industries and that made my playthough much slower. And I insisted on a grid. And my expectations from previous versions.

Long story short, by the time I got to some war science I needed two rows of turrets and all my iron went into ammo. Had to turn on peaceful, because after the first researches, you know what your reward is?

+10% damage, +10% shooting speed. Biters did not care about that. The rest of the upgrades are locked behind the next tier of science.

And you unlock walls, which requires a tier 2 block, something you wont have for quite some time. So no defending with walls as soon as you unlock them. By the time I turned of bitters, one evolved bitter would tear though multiple turrets on his own.

Maybe walls should be craftable as soon as you unlock them?
We know it is not balanced for sure. In a recent update we introduced an earlier tier wall and did some fixes on the military tech. However our focus is on industries at this point, so don't expect this to be balanced what so ever. There is no use for biters as of now, but this will change in the future once we get around to exploration.
Zyrconia wrote:
Fri Apr 24, 2020 10:05 pm
3. Back to the build everything

So let's distinguish between buildings, things you pick back up and get blocks and other entities, like inserters.

Back in the day, if you wanted to include Angel buildings into the build everything, like a sorting facility, you added an assembler for Mk1. When teching up, you added a new assembler for Mk2, that upgraded from Mk1. Same for Bob's, where Assembler 2 upgrades Assembler 1. The number of assemblers kept going up, reaching number of unique buildings times number of tiers.

With the new Angel's, you add an assembler for your mk1 sorting facility, and when you tech up, you change the recipe from mark1 to mk2.

The number of assemblers remains the same. This is good. But for Bob's the old behavior remains.

It is not enough for the script to convert the ingredients. It is not enough to get rid of "legacy" components. It also must go in, using hard coded lists, and remove the Assembler 1 as an ingredient from the Assembler 2 recipe. And the same for power poles. And everything. Not from solar IMHO.

We need an option for AI to completely disable upgrading for some buildings.

If it takes blocks no upgrade. If it takes components perhaps upgrade.

The list of Bob's items we need to cover is very small for starters: 6 assemblers, 3 electronics assemblers, 4? miners, 4 tiers of boilers.

By only removing the upgrade requirement from these 5 building types would greatly contribute to the smoothness and integration between Bob's and Angel's.

I looked over the code but so far found no function to remove a single item from a single recipe if it exists.
There is a function for that: OV.patch_recipes(...) but as I said, we are trying to finish the replacement script, before focusing on bobs compatibility on it. The components and tech are still in development, don't expect everything to work. This specific should work with angels already.
Zyrconia wrote:
Fri Apr 24, 2020 10:05 pm
4. Mining returning ingredients
I keep going back and forth on this one, but ultimately, mining returning components is utterly infuriating.

Here is what happens a lot: you put down something and it is one tile off. You pick it up and it is gone. Now you need to wait 5 seconds to hand craft it.

I would call this unplayable yet for Picker Dollies, which allow you to shift.

Here is something that happens often: you order bots to deconstruct half your base. All the building are gone and your storage is full of components. You build everything kick into high gear, having to produce hundreds of buildings at once, you end up waiting minutes.

Instead of the bots finishing promptly.

Here is something that happens often: you put down a full build, then decide to move it by 2 tiles. 60 something flotation plants gone in an instant.

So basically blocks are good, mining returning components is a good idea ruined by the limitations of Factorio.

I wonder if some of those mods that deconstruct items and return ingredients wouldn't work with Angel's buildings. Need to test it. If now I'll gladly put all the old un-upgradable items in a chest and destroy it. It is not worth the pain of mining returning components.

Perhaps a script would allow for deconstruction of bulk items, like a burner type entity?

I'll turn off that option. Especially since I need to re-do all my smelting for like 6 ores.
We've unlocked the bots earlier for you to use them.. So abuse them. I know it is slow, but hey, it's something. If you don't like that feature, you can disable it in your settings. It's there for a reason. Similar to your previous question: the recipes are not all fixed, so you get quite a lot of extra components back from bobs stuff...
Zyrconia wrote:
Fri Apr 24, 2020 10:05 pm
5. We need to split the pump from all the barreling recipes. Two techs. Some people never barrel or only do it late game and no use destroying a full category from the menu with 100 barreling recipes...
We tucked them away in 1 tab, and the pumps are on the top part of the tab, so it's not like we've hidden them far away... We don't really see this as an issue at this point.
brysamo wrote:
Fri Apr 24, 2020 10:19 pm
lovely_santa wrote:
Fri Apr 24, 2020 8:06 pm
...
That does seem to be the case. do you recall which version of Angel's had that update thrown in?
I'll report the bug in the main forum.
Release version: 0.6.3 of angels smelting, released on 24.03.2020.
Zyrconia wrote:
Sat Apr 25, 2020 8:51 am
PS PS: I proposed a while ago that the "old" Angel's Roboport skin be made available as an override to vanilla/Bob Roboports. The Angel roboport looked so good, but after a stage I never used it because of it's tiny range.
Some other solution is coming in the (near) feature. :D
You can find all my mods on the mod portal. Also helping on Arch666Angel's mods.
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Zyrconia
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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by Zyrconia »

I'm thinking of solving the excess crushed stone problem by converting it to cellulose fiber and the burning wood pellets or charcoal.

I'm assuming it is better than burning coal and I'm assuming the process is energy positive, including growing the algae and converting them to the final burnable?

Has anybody ran the math/play-test?

I normally just clarify excess mineral water.

evandy
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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by evandy »

Zyrconia wrote:
Tue Apr 28, 2020 5:34 am
I'm thinking of solving the excess crushed stone problem by converting it to cellulose fiber and the burning wood pellets or charcoal.

I'm assuming it is better than burning coal and I'm assuming the process is energy positive, including growing the algae and converting them to the final burnable?

Has anybody ran the math/play-test?

I normally just clarify excess mineral water.
That's great for seablock... but if you're in a normal Angel's or AB game why not just turn it into mineral catalysts?

Zyrconia
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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by Zyrconia »

evandy wrote:
Tue Apr 28, 2020 11:53 am
Zyrconia wrote:
Tue Apr 28, 2020 5:34 am
I'm thinking of solving the excess crushed stone problem by converting it to cellulose fiber and the burning wood pellets or charcoal.

I'm assuming it is better than burning coal and I'm assuming the process is energy positive, including growing the algae and converting them to the final burnable?

Has anybody ran the math/play-test?

I normally just clarify excess mineral water.
That's great for seablock... but if you're in a normal Angel's or AB game why not just turn it into mineral catalysts?
Well mostly because by the time I research that technology, I got the world paved, a full warehouse and probably one more clarified or more.

It is hard to deal with constant 1-2k of crushed stone/s in early game.

Then if I do what you say, I need to balance stone, brick, algae AND getting it minerals from it to...

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by Zyrconia »

Zyrconia wrote:
Tue Apr 28, 2020 5:34 am
I'm thinking of solving the excess crushed stone problem by converting it to cellulose fiber and the burning wood pellets or charcoal.

I'm assuming it is better than burning coal and I'm assuming the process is energy positive, including growing the algae and converting them to the final burnable?

Has anybody ran the math/play-test?

I normally just clarify excess mineral water.
I didn't do that (yet).

But what I did is took my coal line and converted it to carbon. I am converting 6 coal/s to 18 carbon/s. More than a yellow belt. Looks efficient. Plus, carbon has one extra MJ.

But Bob's Mk2 boilers are burning the carbon just as fast as coal and the yellow line that had problems reaching the end of the row of boilers still has the same problem with the line of carbon.

I was expecting it to burn slower and reach farther down the line. The only difference I noticed is that the fuel pollution is no longer 200%.

PS: Since I switched I started experiencing brown-outs too. Weird...

Tommo175
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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by Tommo175 »

So having a small problem relating to crushed stone, im about 30 hours into my save and i have over 5million crushed stone..... :|
I have no idea how to get rid of it
Anyone have any ideas?

Thanks, Thomas

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by trionicb »

Tommo175 wrote:
Fri May 01, 2020 9:46 am
So having a small problem relating to crushed stone, im about 30 hours into my save and i have over 5million crushed stone..... :|
I have no idea how to get rid of it
Anyone have any ideas?

Thanks, Thomas
Make bricks and pave the world! If not then you can create mineral water and just void it with the clarifier.

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by Tommo175 »

trionicb wrote:
Fri May 01, 2020 2:13 pm
Tommo175 wrote:
Fri May 01, 2020 9:46 am
So having a small problem relating to crushed stone, im about 30 hours into my save and i have over 5million crushed stone..... :|
I have no idea how to get rid of it
Anyone have any ideas?

Thanks, Thomas
Make bricks and pave the world! If not then you can create mineral water and just void it with the clarifier.
Didn’t think of the brick floor that’s a fantastic idea!
Also I think I am producing more crushed stone than I would be able to reasonably turn into mineral water and pump into the clarifier

Also is there anything useful to do with all the crushed stone that u would always eventually accumulate or is it just expected that u will have a extremely large amount if it?

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by Ambaire »

Zyrconia wrote:
Thu Apr 30, 2020 5:42 am
But what I did is took my coal line and converted it to carbon. I am converting 6 coal/s to 18 carbon/s. More than a yellow belt. Looks efficient. Plus, carbon has one extra MJ.
The thing you need to keep in mind is that this conversion process may consume more energy than it adds to the fuel. You may want to use efficiency modules in the carbon producers, if you're not already.

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