Development and Discussion

Infinite Ores, Refining, Ore Processing ...

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Termak
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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by Termak »

crysanja wrote:I recently finished my bob/angel/spaceX game, which required lots of rocket launches(250+).

It was alot of fun, thank you!

My biggest issues were with fluid piping. I would wish for better fluid propagation.
Fluids which stood out with bad propagation were steam, purified water and natural gas.

The production of steam is realy proplematic, because boilers dont have production numbers and cant be effected with modules.

The useage of ammonia is extreamly high lategame, which is causing issues with transporting it. Maybe reduce all ammonia numbers to aid fluid tranpsortation.(not cheaper products)
Ammonia production via bio-processing is a good startout, however it will never work out when producing rocket fuel.
One reason for the "bad" bio-processing of ammonia is the very inefficient production of CO2. Maybe CO2 production should be enhanced, using a mk5 belt of coal is alot.
The CO2 issue is componded with the carbon production, which is one of the most used items.

Air seperation as well as compressing air is very inefficient. Maybe make this alot more efficent, but change the parts to 20% O2 80% N2. The air intake is the main issue, its propably the worst production building.

High production of H2(via oil) results in an high over production of methane/ethane/butane. Methane can be turned into fuel blocks, however ethane and butane are more or less plastics only, which is not enough to cover the production. Cracking of methane/ethane and butane would help alot.

Manganese production seems kind of fine, however the washing planets have low production numbers as well as high fluid intakes. They require more pumps then pipes.Oo
The fluid access of the washing plant is not helping either.
The side production of mud is extreamly high too, turning it into landfill is just reducing the permanent storage.

The useage of gems is very low in total, however the production of geodes is kind of high, i guess i should have used them for something else then gems, but it feels like a waste. Maybe reduce the numbers of geodes produced?
I also "finished" .15 game just before .16 came. Wasnt spaceX but i did use the massive research cost increases from omniscience (rocket research was something like 100k and raw prod8 module closer to 300k. Launched ~300sh rockets and later about 10 ioncannons, coulda easily done more but started to make the circuits for the achi.
About piping, most of my "issues" were with normal and purified water but it was easily fixed with multiple pipes connected to tanks acting as "watertowers". One pipe can move roughly 1000 units/sec afaik, more if short distances.
I had dedicated lines for rocket fuel so i had absolutely no problems with ammonia either.
Steamboiler makes 60sec, electric 40sec, so its about 16-20 normals,24-30 electric ones per steam pipe, no issues here.

I stopped using bioprocessing at very end due to running low on mineral water/ crushed stone, and i used ammonia farm only very beginning before getting bots to carry catalysts around.

Air separation takes lots of space yes, but changing the ratio would hurt earlygame immensely since theres almost no use for nitrogen until very end.
If theres recipes to make huge amounts methane and just little of the heavier gas fractions if needed so i had no issues balancing the production.
Didnt really bother with manganese or chrome in any bigger amounts due to the massive amount of washing plants required, with bobs miners and infinite ores i had absolutely no problems producing metals.

Mud i just turned back into viscous mudwater and fed it back to washing plants, no landfill needed. Geodes can be processed into mineral sludge and to catalysts/ores after.

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by mrvn »

crysanja wrote:I recently finished my bob/angel/spaceX game, which required lots of rocket launches(250+).

It was alot of fun, thank you!

My biggest issues were with fluid piping. I would wish for better fluid propagation.
Fluids which stood out with bad propagation were steam, purified water and natural gas.

The production of steam is realy proplematic, because boilers dont have production numbers and cant be effected with modules.

The useage of ammonia is extreamly high lategame, which is causing issues with transporting it. Maybe reduce all ammonia numbers to aid fluid tranpsortation.(not cheaper products)
Ammonia production via bio-processing is a good startout, however it will never work out when producing rocket fuel.
One reason for the "bad" bio-processing of ammonia is the very inefficient production of CO2. Maybe CO2 production should be enhanced, using a mk5 belt of coal is alot.
The CO2 issue is componded with the carbon production, which is one of the most used items.

Air seperation as well as compressing air is very inefficient. Maybe make this alot more efficent, but change the parts to 20% O2 80% N2. The air intake is the main issue, its propably the worst production building.

High production of H2(via oil) results in an high over production of methane/ethane/butane. Methane can be turned into fuel blocks, however ethane and butane are more or less plastics only, which is not enough to cover the production. Cracking of methane/ethane and butane would help alot.

Manganese production seems kind of fine, however the washing planets have low production numbers as well as high fluid intakes. They require more pumps then pipes.Oo
The fluid access of the washing plant is not helping either.
The side production of mud is extreamly high too, turning it into landfill is just reducing the permanent storage.

The useage of gems is very low in total, however the production of geodes is kind of high, i guess i should have used them for something else then gems, but it feels like a waste. Maybe reduce the numbers of geodes produced?
Have you tried algae farms and producing the CO2 from them?

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by koopa »

For the coolant, if I remember correctly you can put it in a tank wagon. not very space efficient but you can easily treat all your coolant at a remote location and bring fresh coolant with train too.
I did it a few months ago, I don't know if this is still possible.
Ashprinny wrote:Actually; that's exactly how gasses are transported in RL too. I know Bob's (at some point in time) had 3 different methods of transporting gasses and/or fluids: By barrel (for "true" liquids like water, Sulferic Acid, oil etc), Canisters (for gasses like Hydrogen, air, Oxygen), and a sort of plastic jerrycans (for emulsion and/or composite fluids like Lubricant, Ferric Acid etc.)

When I played earlier versions I know these recipes could still be used crossmod but eventually bob scaled it back to the jerrycans and barrels first; probably because the gas canisters were basically the same entity as the barrel, recipe and all (2 steel for 1 canister holding 100u of material) and eventually the jerrycans were abandoned for the barrel (probably for convenience sake)

In the end; though the realism is a nice touch it often ended in a logistical nightmare (even more than it already was) with you having to track 3 different entities that all, basically, did the same thing and it eventually would lead to a lot of extra logistical planning or 1 of either 3 entities would clog up the network.

Likewise I discovered this problem again when I started to work with the sheetmetal. Having no method to transport the used coolant basically took away the reason why I wanted to produce sheetmetal in the first place with sheetmetal fabrication plants becoming as big as simple nugget smelting but at least the nugget smelting let me augment it by "droning" in catalyst ingots whereas sheetmetal had no such functionality. I searched the modforums for a recipe mod that let me cool Used Coolant so I could realistically transport it OR (what I finally ended up using) a recipe that allowed me to barrel "hot" Used coolant. With that I had back WHY I wanted to produce sheet metal in the first place: A compact way to transport "condensed" plates for modular usage elsewhere in my megabase.

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by BlakeMW »

mrvn wrote:
crysanja wrote:I recently finished my bob/angel/spaceX game, which required lots of rocket launches(250+).
Have you tried algae farms and producing the CO2 from them?
Algae farm at that scale? Doesn't sound too fun to me.

Actually on the topic of algae farms I don't really use them at all. They have a dependency on crushed stone that is in turn coupled to ore refining (except dirt water electrolysis + slag crushing). It might be possible to make it all perfectly balanced, but it's easier when the feed stock is independent of other processes.

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by ukezi »

the CO2 productivity of farms are way low. I mean with seeblocks maybe. but anywhere else? just mine coal and be done with it.
for 1k/s CO2 you need 100 AlgeMK2 farms. And 75 crushed Stone/s, made out of 37.5 slag/s for that you need 75 crafting speeds of dirt water electrolysis.
It needs lots of space and if you get coal all that is a lot easier way to create CO2

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by mrvn »

What else are you going to do with crushed stone?

My Seablock game already has 48 algae farms for power generation and I'm just starting. So I'm halfway towards those 1k/s CO2 as soon as I switch to solar power.

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by BlakeMW »

mrvn wrote:What else are you going to do with crushed stone?
What else are you going to do with the oil and gas patches? Or coal for that matter.

I mostly turn crushed stone into slag slurry or evaporate it if slurry is full.

I haven't decided what the best way to mass-produce plastics is, but oil has pretty simple chains and all oil products can be turned into synth gas if you want to go that route. Gas seems good if you use all the plastic recipe tiers.

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by mrvn »

BlakeMW wrote:
mrvn wrote:What else are you going to do with crushed stone?
What else are you going to do with the oil and gas patches? Or coal for that matter.

I mostly turn crushed stone into slag slurry or evaporate it if slurry is full.

I haven't decided what the best way to mass-produce plastics is, but oil has pretty simple chains and all oil products can be turned into synth gas if you want to go that route. Gas seems good if you use all the plastic recipe tiers.
Well, in my private SeaBlock game I have oil so that route is closed. Algae farms is the only way to go. What I mend was that when I switch to solar I will have all those algae farms build already and left over. I would only have to switch the output to CO2 instead of coke.

Slag slurry: That's what we use slag for in the multiplayer game I'm in and we have plenty. But we only use it for catalysts. No crystalizing chain at all. It's easier to just mine ores. And now that we have enough stone, stone bricks and stone walls pre-produced for the forseable future (warehouse full) the crushed stone starts to accumulate from the ore crushing.

The big difference between slag, crushed stone and geodes is that they are produced as a side effect of you normal factory chain. You have to use them somewhere or manage to loose them. With oil and gas or ore patches you can simply not mine them.


As for plastic: There is plastic 1, 2 and 3 research. Each allows you to us more of the oil products to make plastic. But you need a massive factory for it and until you have researched everything I think you can't get around waste products. That means big tank fields unless you want to void resources that you can turn into plastic with the next research level.

Besides the normal oil chain you can also make plastic out of green algae rather simply. Needs lots of space for algae farms but very little else. Given the amount of plastic needed that is definitely a good use of left over crushed stone.

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by eformo »

Wow - that was fast getting things patched up for the new version. I wasn't expecting anything until mid-January!

One question - did I miss an update to the Bio-Processing part of the mod (I've been unable to connect to the mod portal for a while, so totally unsure)? Or is this something I should know how to fix up myself? (If it's something I should fix myself, any pointers are much appreciated, because I don't know my way around mod editing.) Or maybe it's waiting on some of those farms you've teased us with previously?

Thanks a ton Angel for the best thing to come down the pipe in a long time!

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by Termak »

Been wondering same about Angel's Bio mod, havent started new modded game yet since i have waited for it. What do i do with all the stone without Bio? Just warehouse full of brick or what :D

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by crysanja »

chrushed stone ->calcium chlorid ->titanium ingots

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by Termak »

Ye i know titanium but thinking earlygame where the wooden boards and such were nice product from crushed stonewater.

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by Bags7 »

Hey together, hope you can help me.

I started a game (didn't played since a while) with Bob's and Angels mod with the new Factorio 0.16 version. Works fine up to the point when i need brass, and therefore zinc, to progress futher.

There seems to be no way to get zinc without zinc.. :-( Maybe i'm missing something obvious, but all the ways to get it need machines which require brass:
- Sorting: only with chunks - floatation - brass pipes
- From Minerale Sludge - Crystallizer - brass pipes

I don't see what i'm missing.. please help, don't want to start over again ;-)

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by Bags7 »

Nevermind, i rolled back to 0.15 and started a new game. 0.16 seems to be a bit too new and experimental for my liking.

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Arch666Angel
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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by Arch666Angel »

Termak wrote:Been wondering same about Angel's Bio mod, havent started new modded game yet since i have waited for it. What do i do with all the stone without Bio? Just warehouse full of brick or what :D
Bio will take some extra time to update because all the new stuff is only half finished and its either disabling it for now or let you play around with it and a warning that there are some open ends.

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by Rue99 »

Well, fwiw, my view is that you should let us play around with bio-processing with any necessary caveats. I don't mind playing with a half-finished mod - I'm always interested to see what you've created. That said, the refining changes are pure evil ;).

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by eformo »

Arch666Angel wrote:
Bio will take some extra time to update because all the new stuff is only half finished and its either disabling it for now or let you play around with it and a warning that there are some open ends.
Oh! Oh! I'd like to pick option 2! Pretty please? :)

Thanks so much for your work and enjoy the trip. I'll go practice being patient now.

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by Termak »

Oh your new biothings getting close, awesome. Cant wait

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by septemberWaves »

Termak wrote:Been wondering same about Angel's Bio mod, havent started new modded game yet since i have waited for it. What do i do with all the stone without Bio? Just warehouse full of brick or what :D
Don't you use the ore processing methods that involve mineral catalysts? If I'm calculating correctly, to get a full yellow belt of mineral catalysts using crushed stone you need to input more than 4 blue belts of crushed stone. You can do it with slag too at 1/5 the amount of slag, but using crushed stone is at least a good way to get rid of the stuff.

That said, I'm still using the 0.15 versions of the mods so I don't know if this has changed in the latest versions.

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by Termak »

eloquentJane wrote:
Termak wrote:Been wondering same about Angel's Bio mod, havent started new modded game yet since i have waited for it. What do i do with all the stone without Bio? Just warehouse full of brick or what :D
Don't you use the ore processing methods that involve mineral catalysts? If I'm calculating correctly, to get a full yellow belt of mineral catalysts using crushed stone you need to input more than 4 blue belts of crushed stone. You can do it with slag too at 1/5 the amount of slag, but using crushed stone is at least a good way to get rid of the stuff.

That said, I'm still using the 0.15 versions of the mods so I don't know if this has changed in the latest versions.
I know theres lots of uses later, its the early/midgame where you are drowning under stone, thats where biowood processing was handy.
Atm im just paving the base with bricks until i get to sludge phase, playing AngelBobOmniMarathon atm so this takes a bit longer than usual :D

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