Development and Discussion

Infinite Ores, Refining, Ore Processing ...

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jodokus31
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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by jodokus31 »

mexmer wrote:
mrvn wrote:
jodokus31 wrote:
Zyrconia wrote: All this complexity is fine, but the initial pacing of it is not. With all these changes, especially if you go into gardens, will leave you at the 20 hours mark when you can begin blue science in a well designed non-temporary fairly large base. You can probably speed run a temporary base in a lot shorter time span, but I don't do temporary.
I never reached blue science in 20 hours. But I also do it max. once in 2+ months. At the moment, I do seablock, which has just another level of "tedium" resource and power wise :) I really enjoy the slow pace of everything and like to find solutions for balancing in every state of the playthrough. And decide, what is the next most important step and where to spent the precious ressources. My expectations were not to have good iron in the first couple of hours or to fulfill a time schedule (this, I have it at my job). OK, maybe seablock is not comparable, because the biters cannot overrun you.
F.e. Last weekend I spent several hours on setting up a geode washing and refining module, which has a water and a seafloor pump and produces ores from mineral sludge, crystal and mineral catalyst + wood pellets and a bit of of sulfur. (I think, without seablock, you would need to feed a bit of sulfur).
In seablock you get sulfur from the first washing plant and you need it. The crystal crushing + crystalizing loop looses sulfur. Without that you need to use the excess sulfur from the slag slury + crystalizing loop or wash coal. Not sure what ratio of slag to crystal you need to balance the sulfur.
You can always make coke from coal, to get more sulfur. That’s my setup in seablock. You need coke in angels smelting anyways.
in seablock 0.16, there are some differences:
- there is no coal washing because, coal is not available, only charcoal, which is used as replacement in some recipes for coal or coke -> so no sulfur from this.
- the washing plant produces some hydrogen sulfide addionally. Here you get some sulfur.
- I think, the slag and crystal slurry recipes need less sulfuric acid (not exactly sure)

Here it is:
Ore and woodpellets from water
Arch666Angel wrote: So neither the wood nor the other production chain have seen a real balance sweep, they are set to whatever I felt right at the moment so you have to be patient with me :P
With that said, I have a new idea for the arboretum/wood production stuff, so expect that to change to something more drawn out than it is now.
Nice, the paper chain seems to be a bit slow. And there is also much confusion with the wooden board recipe icon in the seablock thread, because it looks different than the wooden-board itself, but it actually produces wooden-boards.

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by foodfactorio »

Zyrconia wrote:
orzelek wrote:Icons you are referring to are modules in the machines - it looks like Yuoki ones I think.
Thank you! Modules was my theory, but I've never seen those particular icons.
Yuoki eh? It is on the list. Don't know when I'll have time for that.
thanks orzelek (and zyrconia for image), yes they are some modules from YI mod. (my game is an Angel-Bob-Yuoki) (plus Bio_Industries and spaceX main mods for later). At the moment, everything is working together nicely, with no real conflicts so far, and if you want to try it, it is actually pretty cool, and YI is much easier than it might look at first glance, especially with the YI Tech Tree mod, which gates (and categorises) most YI items into relatively cheap Tech areas.

i often find that each mod has different items and tech, which helps to compliment the other in some way. (if you want a modlist please send me a pm and i can let you know what seems to work fine, just so as not to clog up this thread, and i can let you know) :) EDIT: these modules were a bit quicker to get at the start, plus you also get some special Yuoki Signs (items) which you can trade in for a special machine, or a science item etc, and i wanted to try them out.
Arch666Angel wrote:I'll have to read through all the chat at the weekend, there are some lengthy posts here which demand a proper reply :)
For the bio processing stuff remember I put it back to alpha for two reasons:
-New Stuff getting in and stuff already there changing
-No balance yet, or waiting for feedback or a proper testplay to balance stuff out
So neither the wood nor the other production chain have seen a real balance sweep, they are set to whatever I felt right at the moment so you have to be patient with me :P
With that said, I have a new idea for the arboretum/wood production stuff, so expect that to change to something more drawn out than it is now.
hi Angel, for feedback on the Bio Farms, i managed to get 14 Basic Farm buildings all set up nicely, and they seem to be very well balanced, and making oils and pulp and Fermentation base. The only issue i noticed, was that "Kendallion" seeds (mostly via Avanced Seed Extraction from the Seed Extractor), was the slowest and longest seed to find.... i think it took just over 985 production cycles to finally produce 15 Kendalion seeds for the farm :)
(am currently on 850 production cycles for the Water3 seed, so hopefully i can find the last missing 15th seed in about 150 cycles) :D

i havent learned how to share a blueprint yet, but i can try and pass you a blueprint if you need (or a savegame) if you want to see the setup, but here is a picture below:
fully automated (just needs some seeds/input to start each farm) and they slowly processs bits of crystals, fruits, pulp etc :)
Angel Bio Gardens Cultivation and Advanced Seed Extraction blueprint including optional Beacon and YI modules
angel-biocultivation-blueprint-Top_row_receives_a_tree_upon_2_successful_cultivation_to_ensure_repeat_cultivtions.png
angel-biocultivation-blueprint-Top_row_receives_a_tree_upon_2_successful_cultivation_to_ensure_repeat_cultivtions.png (104.25 KiB) Viewed 2971 times
Angel Bio Gardens Full Farming Area ready for inputs aka just add water
Fully_automated_farming_area-1_of_each_basic_farm-x14_plus_liquid_storage_area.png
Fully_automated_farming_area-1_of_each_basic_farm-x14_plus_liquid_storage_area.png (5.79 MiB) Viewed 2971 times
.
this picture is high resolution and if you open in a new tab you can zoom in a lot more too :)
(also me from the mod portal - im not dustine lol) = https://mods.factorio.com/mods/Dustine/ ... ssion/9108
my 1st Mod Idea :) viewtopic.php?f=33&t=50256

foodfactorio
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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by foodfactorio »

here is my current save game using factorio v0.16.27 if you want to see it in action :)
(hopefully the save will auto load any required mods but please make a backup of your modlist and mod settings files so you can quickly try it out if you want, and then can revert back to how things were)

fixed: (seem to have an error trying to upload so i posted the problem here in case a quota issue)
viewtopic.php?f=55&t=57310&p=346693#p346693
Attachments
0.16.16 AngeLbobYuoki--50-YI-HotIron-10Cents-.zip
(17.55 MiB) Downloaded 24 times
(also me from the mod portal - im not dustine lol) = https://mods.factorio.com/mods/Dustine/ ... ssion/9108
my 1st Mod Idea :) viewtopic.php?f=33&t=50256

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by Zyrconia »

Arch666Angel wrote:I'll have to read through all the chat at the weekend, there are some lengthy posts here which demand a proper reply :)

For the bio processing stuff remember I put it back to alpha for two reasons:
-New Stuff getting in and stuff already there changing
-No balance yet, or waiting for feedback or a proper testplay to balance stuff out
So neither the wood nor the other production chain have seen a real balance sweep, they are set to whatever I felt right at the moment so you have to be patient with me :P
With that said, I have a new idea for the arboretum/wood production stuff, so expect that to change to something more drawn out than it is now.
No worries!

I did an up to date 0.15 playtest and now a 10 hour 0.16 playtest and I must say this last one is one of my worst bases ever. Normally, I would restart, but it will be interesting to turn in around instead and make it great.

I wanted to test out a few things and here are my findings and also a summary of the discussions.
Is 1 to N sorting any good?
Short answer: no! Not for high demand ores. For low demand ones it is probably good, or at least easy to set up as a temporary setup that will last you to end game and then you tear it up and be done with 1 to N forever.

First let's define the ore need. I'm usually in need of really large amounts of iron early game, but I've seen that not everybody plays like this, so I'll settle on a "very low" iron production: 4 yellow belts, to be updated later to 4 red belts.

Using 1 to N sorting, 4 ore sorting facilities will eat a yellow line of saturated crushed saphirite. This will output so little ore that not even 2 modules of Smelting, that is 6x2 casting machines can be 100% fed. Even at full load, 12 casting machines do not saturate a yellow belt, so when they are starved for iron ore, they produce less. A yellow belt is 800 iron/s, but 12 casting machines give you 720 iron/s but with one input line of crushed saphirite you will have around 550 iron/s.

So you need 4 fully saturated lines of miners. When you upgrade to red lines, you will cover up with this your entire initial saphirite patch. This means extra early game train. Then you need 4 full lines of crushers to give you 4 saturated lines of crushed saphirite. This will give you eventually 4 lines of iron that are hardly saturated, but with a 4 to 3 ballancer you will get 3 lines of iron.

So you get 3 lines of iron, tap 50/100% of your initial saphirite, while constantly producing 1/1.5 lines of copper. Which you need to warehouse because you have nothing to do with it.

So I stand by my conclusion: 1 to N sorting is not any good and just a stepping stone tech. It is enough for ores or setups where you put down 1-4 ore sorting facilities than output more than you need. For the rest, that is not any good.

Especially if you would like 16 express lines of iron.

Now there might be some late game smelting recipes that I don't know, iron, nickel and cobalt from 1 to N sorting and produce insane amounts of iron, outpacing anything else, including N to 1. I don't know. All I know is that until you reach that point, you will just suffer. In these 10 hours, never once have I been not iron starved and never has the iron backed up.

On the other hand, you can use N to 1 sorting, need only a few miners on saphirite, only a few miners on jiv and done, only two lines or crushing, one for each ore, you can easily get 8 red lines of iron and then you can easily and naturally upgrade them to express once you get lubricant.

All while not getting any side-product ores than you need to store.

Now some might argue that the initial low output is OK, because slowly, little by little, you will upgrade your tech. You won't increase your raw initial stage output, but build more other complicated systems on top and eventually those 3 lines will turn into 8 lines. The problem is that this is far too slow of a process. By the time I've turned my minuscule 1 to N sorting into something that would satisfy my original needs, I'm really expecting the equivalent of 24 express lines of iron.

1 to N, in all my testing ever, is one order of magnitude lower than needed for any "real" base.

Now some might argue that this whole point is not important because there are so many ways to produce iron. But my question was not "Can you produce tons of iron in Angel's?". Because the answer for that is: you can produce crazy amounts with ease. Far more than in vanilla and even more than in Bob's. The question was "Is 1 to N any good?". And the reason I care because if you don't use 1 to N, you are ignoring a large portion of Angel's. I wanted to know once and for all if I'm missing anything. All I'm missing is a large low throughput base :).
N to 1 setup time and complexity

So 1 to N is so bad and N to 1 is really good right? Well, N to 1 is not easy to set up. The early game obstacles were BEBs, steel and trains in 0.15.

Now in 0.16, like I detailed in a post, there are far too many steps and setups you must do before getting N to 1. I feel this is too slow.

I like the addition of bricks, so that can stay, so the other obstacle is sulfuric acid and mineral catalysts. Way to much stuff to set up before you can get iron.

So there are two solutions: remove catalysts from T1 ores (like in 0.15) or add a small amount of jiv and crot to your starter area. Just a bit. Enough for about 4 hours of production. This way you can build up your initial base with plenty of iron and not have to wory about trains until your jiv runs out.
Paper processing
There are (at least) two early game ways of getting boards if not using greenhouses: one is good enough and the other is horrible. Paper processing is new, so I would get rid of the other older path, since early game is already insanely saturated, but if Angel feels that it is good to offer choice, no problem: make both have the same output and input use. BTW, make paper as fast as using sodium hydroxide, not the other way around :))! You can't have a incredibly large iron setup that barely produces anything AND and huge setup of wooden boards which barely produces anything, which of course you can't feed, because you have not enough crushed stone, not even with 2 fully saturated yellow lines of crush stone.

While some people might like it, I doubt the majority want a base that takes 30 hours to feel like an OK green science tech base. Angel's != Marathon!

And if the two recipes are not made equivalent, speed up wooden boards by 4 while reducing input needs by 4 to keep things in balance. So two assemblers would not produce 0.75 wooden boards/circuits second, but 3, which lines up pretty well with 3 bob's electronic assemblers producing circuits at a speed of 1 and 4 copper wire assemblers.

Me personally I would increase the factor by at least 8.
The goal is not to make basic circuits a pain in the ass because Bob already takes care of that by spiting up T1 circuits intro 2: the basic ones and BEBs. Early game circuits are complicated enough as they are, I don't want to put down 60 algae farms to produce boards.
Building overload
In all my bases, I use a 9x9 grid of assemblers with bots to create all the building. Angel adds a ton of building and they mostly have 4 tiers, so it is easy to see how 81 assemblers is not enough to cover all tech buildings. And a giant pain in the ass to build. Especially without bots. Looks pretty epic though.

I've been bothered by this forever, hence I can up with the 9x9 grid. And its size is carefully chosen too.

But we need a better solution. I'm pretty sure this can't be done with Factorio as it stands today, but I'd like to see a new special module slot in all buildings that only accepts one single special speed modules that apply multiplicatively on top of other speed modules. This means only one level of building and 3 special upgrade modules, with 3 different speeds. probably the 33%/100%/266%, but you can only have one. So would would go though speeds of 0.75/1/1.5/2.

But if this can't be done, I really like your idea of mining buildings and getting back building blocks. I'm very curios to see your solution, but I would go with 3 basic building block module types for a T1 building (and not using all 3 for T0 buildings, like stone crushers, probably just one) and 2 upgraded module types per tier, one using gears or pipes from some higher tier ore, one using higher tier circuits, and maybe bricks? So a progression of stone bricks/clay bricks/concrete bricks and iron/steel/brass gears and so on. With all 4 tier buildings, you would need 9 modules. Enough to put on 5 lines. Higher tier buildings would not use lower tier buildings. So you set up your assemblers in a row and produce all T1 buildings. When time to upgrade, you add a single new line with 2 modules and change the recipes in all the assemblers and get all new buildings. And you repeat this 2 more times and have all the buildings. Picking up buildings would give you the building block modules back and modules stack to 999, so picking up every single building even in a large base will eat up only 9 inventory slots.

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by mrvn »

Problem is that you don't have any jivolite in the starting area. So both N-to-1 sorting and ferrous ore are out.

You have to use the 1-to-N saphirite sorting till you are ready to kill some aliens. Which also means you only need stiratite at the very very start till you have researched ore sorting.

Imho the starting area should contain some jivolite (and crotinium?) or the saphirite should be much larger / more frequent in the starting area compared to the others.

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by Asanda_Nima »

Zyrconia wrote:
Arch666Angel wrote:I'll have to read through all the chat at the weekend, there are some lengthy posts here which demand a proper reply :)

For the bio processing stuff remember I put it back to alpha for two reasons:
-New Stuff getting in and stuff already there changing
-No balance yet, or waiting for feedback or a proper testplay to balance stuff out
So neither the wood nor the other production chain have seen a real balance sweep, they are set to whatever I felt right at the moment so you have to be patient with me :P
With that said, I have a new idea for the arboretum/wood production stuff, so expect that to change to something more drawn out than it is now.
No worries!

I did an up to date 0.15 playtest and now a 10 hour 0.16 playtest and I must say this last one is one of my worst bases ever. Normally, I would restart, but it will be interesting to turn in around instead and make it great.

I wanted to test out a few things and here are my findings and also a summary of the discussions.
Is 1 to N sorting any good?
Short answer: no! Not for high demand ores. For low demand ones it is probably good, or at least easy to set up as a temporary setup that will last you to end game and then you tear it up and be done with 1 to N forever.

First let's define the ore need. I'm usually in need of really large amounts of iron early game, but I've seen that not everybody plays like this, so I'll settle on a "very low" iron production: 4 yellow belts, to be updated later to 4 red belts.

Using 1 to N sorting, 4 ore sorting facilities will eat a yellow line of saturated crushed saphirite. This will output so little ore that not even 2 modules of Smelting, that is 6x2 casting machines can be 100% fed. Even at full load, 12 casting machines do not saturate a yellow belt, so when they are starved for iron ore, they produce less. A yellow belt is 800 iron/s, but 12 casting machines give you 720 iron/s but with one input line of crushed saphirite you will have around 550 iron/s.

So you need 4 fully saturated lines of miners. When you upgrade to red lines, you will cover up with this your entire initial saphirite patch. This means extra early game train. Then you need 4 full lines of crushers to give you 4 saturated lines of crushed saphirite. This will give you eventually 4 lines of iron that are hardly saturated, but with a 4 to 3 ballancer you will get 3 lines of iron.

So you get 3 lines of iron, tap 50/100% of your initial saphirite, while constantly producing 1/1.5 lines of copper. Which you need to warehouse because you have nothing to do with it.

So I stand by my conclusion: 1 to N sorting is not any good and just a stepping stone tech. It is enough for ores or setups where you put down 1-4 ore sorting facilities than output more than you need. For the rest, that is not any good.

Especially if you would like 16 express lines of iron.

Now there might be some late game smelting recipes that I don't know, iron, nickel and cobalt from 1 to N sorting and produce insane amounts of iron, outpacing anything else, including N to 1. I don't know. All I know is that until you reach that point, you will just suffer. In these 10 hours, never once have I been not iron starved and never has the iron backed up.

On the other hand, you can use N to 1 sorting, need only a few miners on saphirite, only a few miners on jiv and done, only two lines or crushing, one for each ore, you can easily get 8 red lines of iron and then you can easily and naturally upgrade them to express once you get lubricant.

All while not getting any side-product ores than you need to store.

Now some might argue that the initial low output is OK, because slowly, little by little, you will upgrade your tech. You won't increase your raw initial stage output, but build more other complicated systems on top and eventually those 3 lines will turn into 8 lines. The problem is that this is far too slow of a process. By the time I've turned my minuscule 1 to N sorting into something that would satisfy my original needs, I'm really expecting the equivalent of 24 express lines of iron.

1 to N, in all my testing ever, is one order of magnitude lower than needed for any "real" base.

Now some might argue that this whole point is not important because there are so many ways to produce iron. But my question was not "Can you produce tons of iron in Angel's?". Because the answer for that is: you can produce crazy amounts with ease. Far more than in vanilla and even more than in Bob's. The question was "Is 1 to N any good?". And the reason I care because if you don't use 1 to N, you are ignoring a large portion of Angel's. I wanted to know once and for all if I'm missing anything. All I'm missing is a large low throughput base :).
N to 1 setup time and complexity

So 1 to N is so bad and N to 1 is really good right? Well, N to 1 is not easy to set up. The early game obstacles were BEBs, steel and trains in 0.15.

Now in 0.16, like I detailed in a post, there are far too many steps and setups you must do before getting N to 1. I feel this is too slow.

I like the addition of bricks, so that can stay, so the other obstacle is sulfuric acid and mineral catalysts. Way to much stuff to set up before you can get iron.

So there are two solutions: remove catalysts from T1 ores (like in 0.15) or add a small amount of jiv and crot to your starter area. Just a bit. Enough for about 4 hours of production. This way you can build up your initial base with plenty of iron and not have to wory about trains until your jiv runs out.
Paper processing
There are (at least) two early game ways of getting boards if not using greenhouses: one is good enough and the other is horrible. Paper processing is new, so I would get rid of the other older path, since early game is already insanely saturated, but if Angel feels that it is good to offer choice, no problem: make both have the same output and input use. BTW, make paper as fast as using sodium hydroxide, not the other way around :))! You can't have a incredibly large iron setup that barely produces anything AND and huge setup of wooden boards which barely produces anything, which of course you can't feed, because you have not enough crushed stone, not even with 2 fully saturated yellow lines of crush stone.

While some people might like it, I doubt the majority want a base that takes 30 hours to feel like an OK green science tech base. Angel's != Marathon!

And if the two recipes are not made equivalent, speed up wooden boards by 4 while reducing input needs by 4 to keep things in balance. So two assemblers would not produce 0.75 wooden boards/circuits second, but 3, which lines up pretty well with 3 bob's electronic assemblers producing circuits at a speed of 1 and 4 copper wire assemblers.

Me personally I would increase the factor by at least 8.
The goal is not to make basic circuits a pain in the ass because Bob already takes care of that by spiting up T1 circuits intro 2: the basic ones and BEBs. Early game circuits are complicated enough as they are, I don't want to put down 60 algae farms to produce boards.
Building overload
In all my bases, I use a 9x9 grid of assemblers with bots to create all the building. Angel adds a ton of building and they mostly have 4 tiers, so it is easy to see how 81 assemblers is not enough to cover all tech buildings. And a giant pain in the ass to build. Especially without bots. Looks pretty epic though.

I've been bothered by this forever, hence I can up with the 9x9 grid. And its size is carefully chosen too.

But we need a better solution. I'm pretty sure this can't be done with Factorio as it stands today, but I'd like to see a new special module slot in all buildings that only accepts one single special speed modules that apply multiplicatively on top of other speed modules. This means only one level of building and 3 special upgrade modules, with 3 different speeds. probably the 33%/100%/266%, but you can only have one. So would would go though speeds of 0.75/1/1.5/2.

But if this can't be done, I really like your idea of mining buildings and getting back building blocks. I'm very curios to see your solution, but I would go with 3 basic building block module types for a T1 building (and not using all 3 for T0 buildings, like stone crushers, probably just one) and 2 upgraded module types per tier, one using gears or pipes from some higher tier ore, one using higher tier circuits, and maybe bricks? So a progression of stone bricks/clay bricks/concrete bricks and iron/steel/brass gears and so on. With all 4 tier buildings, you would need 9 modules. Enough to put on 5 lines. Higher tier buildings would not use lower tier buildings. So you set up your assemblers in a row and produce all T1 buildings. When time to upgrade, you add a single new line with 2 modules and change the recipes in all the assemblers and get all new buildings. And you repeat this 2 more times and have all the buildings. Picking up buildings would give you the building block modules back and modules stack to 999, so picking up every single building even in a large base will eat up only 9 inventory slots.

Maybe I missed something, but how do you supply the N to 1 with catalysts? When you do the N to 1 you get no slag, only crushed stone. And the crushed stone you get are by far not enough to support any meaningful catalyst production. So you have to set up a 1 to N production anyway??

Or is there some other way to get around this issue?

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by Zyrconia »

Asanda_Nima wrote: Maybe I missed something, but how do you supply the N to 1 with catalysts? When you do the N to 1 you get no slag, only crushed stone. And the crushed stone you get are by far not enough to support any meaningful catalyst production. So you have to set up a 1 to N production anyway??

Or is there some other way to get around this issue?
There is something called "dirt water electrolysis". It takes normal water and power and you get slag, oxygen and hydrogen, which you flare stack.

So infinite free slag.

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by Asanda_Nima »

Zyrconia wrote:
Asanda_Nima wrote: Maybe I missed something, but how do you supply the N to 1 with catalysts? When you do the N to 1 you get no slag, only crushed stone. And the crushed stone you get are by far not enough to support any meaningful catalyst production. So you have to set up a 1 to N production anyway??

Or is there some other way to get around this issue?
There is something called "dirt water electrolysis". It takes normal water and power and you get slag, oxygen and hydrogen, which you flare stack.

So infinite free slag.

I see, thank you.

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by Thales7 »

Hi, I have a suggestion:
It's very frustrating not chose the fluid input and output in installations. There is some form to create some window in game with building image and slots in each input and output for the player chose? If someone create a form to hack the inserter, it's no as impossible as It's like.

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by mrvn »

Thales7 wrote:Hi, I have a suggestion:
It's very frustrating not chose the fluid input and output in installations. There is some form to create some window in game with building image and slots in each input and output for the player chose? If someone create a form to hack the inserter, it's no as impossible as It's like.
The devs had said that is intentional and part of the puzzle.

I think for the fluid inputs to change the entity definition has to change. So You would have to define one building per possible fluid configuration and then replace the building when the player changes the configuration. That's fine for 2 fluid inputs (2 definitions). But it kind of explodes for refineries (32 definitions).

This might be something that's better solved with upstream support and I suggest you make it an idea&suggestion to provide an API for it.

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by Zyrconia »

Asanda_Nima wrote:
Zyrconia wrote:
Asanda_Nima wrote: Maybe I missed something, but how do you supply the N to 1 with catalysts? When you do the N to 1 you get no slag, only crushed stone. And the crushed stone you get are by far not enough to support any meaningful catalyst production. So you have to set up a 1 to N production anyway??

Or is there some other way to get around this issue?
There is something called "dirt water electrolysis". It takes normal water and power and you get slag, oxygen and hydrogen, which you flare stack.

So infinite free slag.

I see, thank you.
Ahhh, and I forgot about the main way I am doing it: thermal water. You can get catalysts from thermal water with no slag.

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by arbarbonif »

If you are bringing jivolite into your main base anyway for catalyst based sorting, just do the initial ferrous sorting (saph/jiv/rub) that provides an iron plate for each incoming ore (via iron/manganese smelting) and needs no catalysts and produces nothing that doesn't become iron (just like the pre-change pure iron sorting). I also run the iron ore produced through a set of processors to boost it and that extra iron ore goes on into steel production (or more iron). I was getting 1K iron a minute (and like 75 steel) per 3 ferrous sorters (iirc). So you would need 10ish for your 4 belts.

Have you looked at the ferrous sorting? That is what has replaced the saph/jiv sorting method as the primary source of iron.

Edit: Actually it is 3 crushers feeding 5 sorters (less than 100%) results in 1K iron and 112 steel a minute
Last edited by arbarbonif on Fri Mar 02, 2018 1:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by Termak »

Will you be adding energy values to your liquids like Bob is atm, atleast i couldnt use fuel oil on his oil powerplant until i ran it through converter and made it light oil.

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by Sauerkraut »

Zyrconia wrote:
Asanda_Nima wrote:
Zyrconia wrote:
Asanda_Nima wrote: Maybe I missed something, but how do you supply the N to 1 with catalysts? When you do the N to 1 you get no slag, only crushed stone. And the crushed stone you get are by far not enough to support any meaningful catalyst production. So you have to set up a 1 to N production anyway??

Or is there some other way to get around this issue?
There is something called "dirt water electrolysis". It takes normal water and power and you get slag, oxygen and hydrogen, which you flare stack.

So infinite free slag.

I see, thank you.
Ahhh, and I forgot about the main way I am doing it: thermal water. You can get catalysts from thermal water with no slag.
Yeah, but as far as I remember that requires blue science, so you have to setup oil, plastics, batteries, brass, resin, silicon and advanced electronic circuits before that, which at least I am still struggling to do. So It is dirt water electrolysis for a looong time

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by Termak »

Just mix the N to 1 and 1 to N sortings in the beginning, add the 3 to 1 ferrous sorting if you have ores for it (on my current map i havent found rubyte but plenty jivo+saph).
I keep the 1 to N running and fill in with N to 1 mostly for iron as usual. 1 to N is great for the small stuff you dont need tons in the beginning. This way i have had no problems getting enough materials for catalysts. Im at blue science atm so i could get thermal water if needed easily.

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by Zyrconia »

I clocked in another 6 hours fixing up my base and my original conclusions still stand, but my stance on the issues has changed.

Yes, 1 to N is really bad for anything in high need, but maybe this is intentional, because N to 1 exists and that's what you should use.

Maybe N to 1 has far to many sub industries to set up before you can get started with it 0.16, but maybe you shouldn't start with it because manganese exists.

So maybe these parts are actually balanced enough and work as intended, only I'm using the wrong "meta" and order of industries.

Manganese based iron works pretty well. I prefer no catalyst 0.15 iron, but with two full lines of ferric crushed ore you are basically on equal footing. Using crushed ferric ore feels a bit slower because I tried only a single line, plus I'm not taping its entire potential because I'm only using the basic recipe since I don't have lubricant yet.

So my new "meta", for a future Angel's Industries base will be: crushed saphirite and stiratite direct smelting up to demand with no sorting no sorting (5 red line of iron, 1 of copper), sorting for tin and ore, refining for solder to stockpile early sulfuric acid (I mathed out 30k sulfuric acid yield), rush trains, get jivolite, rush bricks, set up mk2 iron smelting with manganese, decommission saphirite smelting, plastic from algae, brass and aluminium through hydro refining, white boards, blue science, oil, research no by-product oil setup, silver and gold.

The only thing I'm not sure on with manganese is that it is lopsided: processed manganese requires blue science while processed iron does not, so you can't really use processed iron until blue science or your system will be bottlenecked by excess iron. So using processed iron is a tech exclusively for people who do not use manganese. Or you can with a bit cleverness feed it to steel with low priority. Plus the consumption of sulfuric acid is a bit weird.

I also tried a bit of agriculture and now have corn. I think this will give some plastic.

I also got a full tree in my exploration and not even what is used for can tell me what to do with it. It just sits in a chest for now.

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by Frost »

Zyrconia wrote: I also got a full tree in my exploration and not even what is used for can tell me what to do with it. It just sits in a chest for now.
Desert tree? I suspect another aboretum is coming?!

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by mexmer »

Frost wrote:
Zyrconia wrote: I also got a full tree in my exploration and not even what is used for can tell me what to do with it. It just sits in a chest for now.
Desert tree? I suspect another aboretum is coming?!
desert tree is in biomod since first version with garden. never found what to do with it either.

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by Termak »

Zyrconia wrote:The only thing I'm not sure on with manganese is that it is lopsided: processed manganese requires blue science while processed iron does not, so you can't really use processed iron until blue science or your system will be bottlenecked by excess iron. So using processed iron is a tech exclusively for people who do not use manganese. Or you can with a bit cleverness feed it to steel with low priority. Plus the consumption of sulfuric acid is a bit weird.
You can just mix rank 2 iron smelting with rank 1 manganese by just directing the overflow iron into plain iron smelter.

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by Sauerkraut »

Termak wrote:
Zyrconia wrote:The only thing I'm not sure on with manganese is that it is lopsided: processed manganese requires blue science while processed iron does not, so you can't really use processed iron until blue science or your system will be bottlenecked by excess iron. So using processed iron is a tech exclusively for people who do not use manganese. Or you can with a bit cleverness feed it to steel with low priority. Plus the consumption of sulfuric acid is a bit weird.
You can just mix rank 2 iron smelting with rank 1 manganese by just directing the overflow iron into plain iron smelter.
Or steel smelting, as I am currently doing.

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