Development and Discussion

Infinite Ores, Refining, Ore Processing ...

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Jackalope_Gaming
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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by Jackalope_Gaming »

mexmer wrote:
Jackalope_Gaming wrote:Suggestions:

Can we have an option within Angel's Infinite Ore to make the infinite ore within the regular ore, without having to use RSO? This would allow people to not have to fiddle with RSO's settings if they want to try vanilla generation. RSO is also not supported by the map generation preview, so if we want to have the combination patches then we won't have the quality of life option to look at a map preview.

Would it be possible to split up infinite ore acid use based on the ore itself and not an all or nothing deal? One easy situation with that is having infinite saphirite and stiratite be mined without the fluids, but the other ores would need it.
you don't need RSO for infinite ores. and you will not see infinite ore patches in preview, because they are created programatically by map generator modification after you start game.
Please reread the suggestion. I know that infinite ore can spawn without RSO. However, RSO seems to be required if someone wants the infinite ore to spawn within a regular ore patch, which I called a combination patch. To quote from the mod page itself:

"- I highly recommend the usage of the RSO Mod it features the generation of ore patches which have a percentage of infinite ores (see screenshot in long description) thanks to orzelek!"

I would like it if RSO was not required for combination patches.

As for RSO not being supported by the map generation preview, I know why it doesn't work but the reason why it doesn't work is meaningless when asking for Angel's Infinite Ores to have a native option for combination ore patches so we don't have to resort to RSO. Unless for some reason the only way to make combination patches is to have them be created after starting the game, in which case there is still some use for the request if someone wants the combination patches but does not want to use RSO's resource generation nor do they want to fiddle with RSO's settings to get a more vanilla experience.
Light wrote:
Jackalope_Gaming wrote:Suggestions:
Would it be possible to split up infinite ore acid use based on the ore itself and not an all or nothing deal? One easy situation with that is having infinite saphirite and stiratite be mined without the fluids, but the other ores would need it.
Infinite coal doesn't require any chemical, making it a very potent source for a lot of mid/late game chemicals and items. That alone is OP enough to create infinite sulfuric acid, thus nullifying the requirements for those two ores.
Those two ores were mainly an example to give any situation where one might want to try the different settings. You mentioned mid and late game, but there is potential for early game use of infinite ores and being able to ignore the acid requirement can mean simplifying the early game a bit, if one so chooses. Or a potentially-interesting case when using Angel's on top of vanilla but without Bob's (so saphirite and jivolite are only iron while stiratite and crotinnium are only copper) is to have the stiratite and crotinnum require acids but saphirite and jivolite don't, resulting in iron being easier to access than copper.

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by mexmer »

Jackalope_Gaming wrote:
mexmer wrote:
Jackalope_Gaming wrote:Suggestions:

Can we have an option within Angel's Infinite Ore to make the infinite ore within the regular ore, without having to use RSO? This would allow people to not have to fiddle with RSO's settings if they want to try vanilla generation. RSO is also not supported by the map generation preview, so if we want to have the combination patches then we won't have the quality of life option to look at a map preview.

Would it be possible to split up infinite ore acid use based on the ore itself and not an all or nothing deal? One easy situation with that is having infinite saphirite and stiratite be mined without the fluids, but the other ores would need it.
you don't need RSO for infinite ores. and you will not see infinite ore patches in preview, because they are created programatically by map generator modification after you start game.
Please reread the suggestion. I know that infinite ore can spawn without RSO. However, RSO seems to be required if someone wants the infinite ore to spawn within a regular ore patch, which I called a combination patch. To quote from the mod page itself:

"- I highly recommend the usage of the RSO Mod it features the generation of ore patches which have a percentage of infinite ores (see screenshot in long description) thanks to orzelek!"

I would like it if RSO was not required for combination patches.

As for RSO not being supported by the map generation preview, I know why it doesn't work but the reason why it doesn't work is meaningless when asking for Angel's Infinite Ores to have a native option for combination ore patches so we don't have to resort to RSO. Unless for some reason the only way to make combination patches is to have them be created after starting the game, in which case there is still some use for the request if someone wants the combination patches but does not want to use RSO's resource generation nor do they want to fiddle with RSO's settings to get a more vanilla experience.
like i said you don''t need to have RSO.

infinite patches are created AFTER game is started not before. and yes they appear either standalone or on top of existing patches even without RSO.

one option that would be good (is in RSO, not in angels) to not have infinite patches spawn at starting area.

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by Zephyrinius »

I just noticed that productivity modules can be put in sorters for most recipes, but not if you're sorting ferrous/cupric materials. This seems strange -- is it the intended behavior?

Edit: I'm guessing that the following should be added to the end of refining-override.lua:

Code: Select all

	angelsmods.functions.allow_productivity("angelsore8-crushed-processing")
	angelsmods.functions.allow_productivity("angelsore8-powder-processing")
	angelsmods.functions.allow_productivity("angelsore8-dust-processing")
	angelsmods.functions.allow_productivity("angelsore8-crystal-processing")
	angelsmods.functions.allow_productivity("angelsore9-crushed-processing")
	angelsmods.functions.allow_productivity("angelsore9-powder-processing")
	angelsmods.functions.allow_productivity("angelsore9-dust-processing")
	angelsmods.functions.allow_productivity("angelsore9-crystal-processing")
Also, it seems like prod modules should be enabled for the orange catalyst, since they're allowed for the green and brown catalysts.

By the way, I absolutely love your mods.

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by Light »

Jackalope_Gaming wrote:
Light wrote:
Jackalope_Gaming wrote:Suggestions:
Would it be possible to split up infinite ore acid use based on the ore itself and not an all or nothing deal? One easy situation with that is having infinite saphirite and stiratite be mined without the fluids, but the other ores would need it.
Infinite coal doesn't require any chemical, making it a very potent source for a lot of mid/late game chemicals and items. That alone is OP enough to create infinite sulfuric acid, thus nullifying the requirements for those two ores.
Those two ores were mainly an example to give any situation where one might want to try the different settings. You mentioned mid and late game, but there is potential for early game use of infinite ores and being able to ignore the acid requirement can mean simplifying the early game a bit, if one so chooses. Or a potentially-interesting case when using Angel's on top of vanilla but without Bob's (so saphirite and jivolite are only iron while stiratite and crotinnium are only copper) is to have the stiratite and crotinnum require acids but saphirite and jivolite don't, resulting in iron being easier to access than copper.
I've seldom if ever experienced situations where sulfuric acid wasn't produced before the starting patches went completely dry; However, non-infinite patches do still exist outside of that starting area you can easily mine from, which will give you even more time to get sorted if for some reason you're behind.

Coal can be used very early game to create sulfuric acid, as it's always the chemical you never run short of if you're using it properly. My statement about the mid game is once you tap into infinite coal, you then have infinite sulfuric acid at your disposal for the rest of the game, alongside other chemicals you'll use in the mid/late game. It's only hydrofluoric acid that's a bit annoying to keep on top of, as all other chemical requirements are moot by mid game. That's the entire point though, that infinite ores are a bonus you pay a small price toward rather than just being a cheat to get all ores with ease... except for the OP coal.

Tip: Clean the coal into coke with a liquifier and use the sulfuric waste water to get started on your early sulfuric chain. You get extra MJ of fuel for your boilers as a bonus + coke available for metallurgy if installed (More iron). That's my favored way to start any game, by getting the most out of the starting coal fuel wise and having that sulfur surplus ready for use when the patches start to run out. It hasn't ever failed me or my friends yet, so give it a try and see how it works for you.

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by Arch666Angel »

Zephyrinius wrote:I just noticed that productivity modules can be put in sorters for most recipes, but not if you're sorting ferrous/cupric materials. This seems strange -- is it the intended behavior?

Edit: I'm guessing that the following should be added to the end of refining-override.lua:

Code: Select all

	angelsmods.functions.allow_productivity("angelsore8-crushed-processing")
	angelsmods.functions.allow_productivity("angelsore8-powder-processing")
	angelsmods.functions.allow_productivity("angelsore8-dust-processing")
	angelsmods.functions.allow_productivity("angelsore8-crystal-processing")
	angelsmods.functions.allow_productivity("angelsore9-crushed-processing")
	angelsmods.functions.allow_productivity("angelsore9-powder-processing")
	angelsmods.functions.allow_productivity("angelsore9-dust-processing")
	angelsmods.functions.allow_productivity("angelsore9-crystal-processing")
Also, it seems like prod modules should be enabled for the orange catalyst, since they're allowed for the green and brown catalysts.

By the way, I absolutely love your mods.
As much as I despise the productivity idea you are right. I'm adding that for the next one.

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by Arch666Angel »

Light wrote: I've seldom if ever experienced situations where sulfuric acid wasn't produced before the starting patches went completely dry; However, non-infinite patches do still exist outside of that starting area you can easily mine from, which will give you even more time to get sorted if for some reason you're behind.

Coal can be used very early game to create sulfuric acid, as it's always the chemical you never run short of if you're using it properly. My statement about the mid game is once you tap into infinite coal, you then have infinite sulfuric acid at your disposal for the rest of the game, alongside other chemicals you'll use in the mid/late game. It's only hydrofluoric acid that's a bit annoying to keep on top of, as all other chemical requirements are moot by mid game. That's the entire point though, that infinite ores are a bonus you pay a small price toward rather than just being a cheat to get all ores with ease... except for the OP coal.

Tip: Clean the coal into coke with a liquifier and use the sulfuric waste water to get started on your early sulfuric chain. You get extra MJ of fuel for your boilers as a bonus + coke available for metallurgy if installed (More iron). That's my favored way to start any game, by getting the most out of the starting coal fuel wise and having that sulfur surplus ready for use when the patches start to run out. It hasn't ever failed me or my friends yet, so give it a try and see how it works for you.
Gets me thinking, what would be another fun idea is to only have regular patches in the starting area and only acid needing infinite patches outside 8-)

But I also like Dustine's take on it https://mods.factorio.com/mod/yaiom

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by Arch666Angel »

So some updates and some talking/writing about plans:

First off thanks for all the support over the time I'm developing my mods, it's been almost two years now that I'm in on this project, what were little baby steps at first has grown into these huge mess of mods. When I started off the idea was to enhance what I liked about bobs and stuff holes where I thought bobs creation was lacking, but since then it has grown into more and the goal to get my mods as stand alone overhaul is getting closer: one reason why I never wanted to be dependent completely on bobs. Refining, Petrochem and Smelting are more or less up to speed and where they should be, in most of them you can glimpse things I have planned for later use, e.g. certain metals, intermediate products, rocks etc. So the main focus at the moment is on Bio-processing bringing it where I want it and adding all the ideas I have for it.
The next step then is Angels Industries (yeah I know very inventive), it will be the successor to components, tech and logistics. At the moment I'm thinking that merging these mods are the best way going forward, but as always that might change if I run into a hurdle and discover that it is easier to handle in another way.

Bio Processing
Plans
-adding biter hatching and butchering
-adding crystal production chains
Ideas
-fishing
-more garden variety
-...?

Industries
Plans
-Science overhaul: introducing 6 tiers to research (grey, red, green, orange, blue, yellow) and specializations to techs (logistic, war, processing, energy, enhancement, exploration) so each tech will have a science-pack (tool to analyze data) determing tier and a datacore determing specialization.
-Components: Adding component system to all placeable stuff, so if you build an assembler you need building blocks, if you place and then disassemble the machine you get the blocks back, so you are more flexible in what you produce and carry around, produce blocks in assemblers because of long crafting time, assemble buildings from blocks on spot.
-Building materials, different tiers, different materials. I will probably stray from the realistic "inspiration" to make it more streamlined with what I have in mind.
-Logistics: Has everything you already know and more: New Extender poles, new roboport and some other stuff planned.

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by DaveSh99 »

Most interesting, looking forward to your launch of industries.

d.

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by qwerter96 »

What's the point of the ferrous/cupric chain. I don't seem to understand what advantages it has over pure/raw sorting. It looks to have the disadvantages of both (combined inputs and combined outputs) with none of the advantages that would normally accompany it...

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by Jackalope_Gaming »

Light wrote:
Jackalope_Gaming wrote:
Light wrote:
Jackalope_Gaming wrote:Suggestions:
Would it be possible to split up infinite ore acid use based on the ore itself and not an all or nothing deal? One easy situation with that is having infinite saphirite and stiratite be mined without the fluids, but the other ores would need it.
Infinite coal doesn't require any chemical, making it a very potent source for a lot of mid/late game chemicals and items. That alone is OP enough to create infinite sulfuric acid, thus nullifying the requirements for those two ores.
Those two ores were mainly an example to give any situation where one might want to try the different settings. You mentioned mid and late game, but there is potential for early game use of infinite ores and being able to ignore the acid requirement can mean simplifying the early game a bit, if one so chooses. Or a potentially-interesting case when using Angel's on top of vanilla but without Bob's (so saphirite and jivolite are only iron while stiratite and crotinnium are only copper) is to have the stiratite and crotinnum require acids but saphirite and jivolite don't, resulting in iron being easier to access than copper.
I've seldom if ever experienced situations where sulfuric acid wasn't produced before the starting patches went completely dry; However, non-infinite patches do still exist outside of that starting area you can easily mine from, which will give you even more time to get sorted if for some reason you're behind.

Coal can be used very early game to create sulfuric acid, as it's always the chemical you never run short of if you're using it properly. My statement about the mid game is once you tap into infinite coal, you then have infinite sulfuric acid at your disposal for the rest of the game, alongside other chemicals you'll use in the mid/late game. It's only hydrofluoric acid that's a bit annoying to keep on top of, as all other chemical requirements are moot by mid game. That's the entire point though, that infinite ores are a bonus you pay a small price toward rather than just being a cheat to get all ores with ease... except for the OP coal.

Tip: Clean the coal into coke with a liquifier and use the sulfuric waste water to get started on your early sulfuric chain. You get extra MJ of fuel for your boilers as a bonus + coke available for metallurgy if installed (More iron). That's my favored way to start any game, by getting the most out of the starting coal fuel wise and having that sulfur surplus ready for use when the patches start to run out. It hasn't ever failed me or my friends yet, so give it a try and see how it works for you.
The entire point is so one can ignore the sulfuric acid (or other acids) if they want to experiment with those differences in resource production.

I know about clean coal to coke. I use it. It's good, just like you say it is. I still think it would be a nice option to have the ability to disable individual infinite ores from needing their given acid so one can play the game a little differently if they so desire. Sure, a player who finds it difficult to produce the acid could use it to make their life easier, but if they're having issues with that staple chemical then they'll have significant issues with the rest of Petrochem. At the other end of the spectrum, the change can be for someone who finds the acid use to be so trivial that they don't want to bother with it anymore and would like to focus on other things, even if they have access to regular ores, because they find something else more worthwhile.

If you're wondering why anyone would disable the acid requirement despite it being relatively easy to make those acids (barring hydrofluoric, as you said) then perhaps you are not the intended audience for such an optional change.

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by Warrie »

qwerter96 wrote:What's the point of the ferrous/cupric chain. I don't seem to understand what advantages it has over pure/raw sorting. It looks to have the disadvantages of both (combined inputs and combined outputs) with none of the advantages that would normally accompany it...
It must be a work in progress. Some mods seem to have gone back to beta or beta to alpha ;)
i hope we see some angel logistics back to 0.16 soon.

Thanks for the update angel, we wait in full anticipation :shock:

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by Termak »

qwerter96 wrote:What's the point of the ferrous/cupric chain. I don't seem to understand what advantages it has over pure/raw sorting. It looks to have the disadvantages of both (combined inputs and combined outputs) with none of the advantages that would normally accompany it...
Well for starters in the beginning its easy to set up, gives "pure iron" pretty fast, doesnt need catalyst, is a way to get use of the low used ores, doesnt make slag.
I havent used much of the higher tier stuff yet but i like it.

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by Light »

Arch666Angel wrote:
Light wrote: I've seldom if ever experienced situations where sulfuric acid wasn't produced before the starting patches went completely dry; However, non-infinite patches do still exist outside of that starting area you can easily mine from, which will give you even more time to get sorted if for some reason you're behind.

Coal can be used very early game to create sulfuric acid, as it's always the chemical you never run short of if you're using it properly. My statement about the mid game is once you tap into infinite coal, you then have infinite sulfuric acid at your disposal for the rest of the game, alongside other chemicals you'll use in the mid/late game. It's only hydrofluoric acid that's a bit annoying to keep on top of, as all other chemical requirements are moot by mid game. That's the entire point though, that infinite ores are a bonus you pay a small price toward rather than just being a cheat to get all ores with ease... except for the OP coal.

Tip: Clean the coal into coke with a liquifier and use the sulfuric waste water to get started on your early sulfuric chain. You get extra MJ of fuel for your boilers as a bonus + coke available for metallurgy if installed (More iron). That's my favored way to start any game, by getting the most out of the starting coal fuel wise and having that sulfur surplus ready for use when the patches start to run out. It hasn't ever failed me or my friends yet, so give it a try and see how it works for you.
Gets me thinking, what would be another fun idea is to only have regular patches in the starting area and only acid needing infinite patches outside 8-)

But I also like Dustine's take on it https://mods.factorio.com/mod/yaiom
RSO does exactly that. However, it ultimately doesn't change anything aside from having to send trains of acid barrels using the train network you've got running by that point.

Talking about it in depth like that did kind of show me how meaningless the acid requirement generally is, given the many ways to create them with ease rather early on. I couldn't get Dustine's mod to work properly for me to really comment on how much better that may have been, but I can tell that infinite ores require at least some further processing to be usable ores, which honestly may be a better fit given how uninvolved it is right now.
Arch666Angel wrote:So some updates and some talking/writing about plans:
Due to the major improvement to bio industries, I'm going to say that creating resin from raw wood could be tweaked back to 2 or 3 wood per resin if the mod is installed (Not 5). I've found that thanks to the easy to locate trees, that creating the wood using just soil isn't that bad early on. With some potential new bio-techs to provide greater ratios of resin over just raw wood alone, it's an avenue for you to get more use of your bio mod /w petrochem. Cultivating a tree early on can provide enough resin for starting circuits, but later on a more detailed avenue in bio processing for better yields would begin to appeal for late game demand where raw wood cultivation won't cut it anymore. Improved ratios that scale over time seems to be your specialty at this point, so it's probably no difficulty for you to figure out how to do it. Just remember that we need that early game option in case we get shitty luck in our starting area, which is what ultimately screwed some of us when it was 5 raw wood with no greenhouse options to speak of.

I'd also suggest that you release the science part of the industries mod first, since that's likely going to be the most game altering and thus require the most feedback over the rest. I otherwise have no comment since I'd rather playtest content for a couple hours before judging an idea rather than reading what it's like and trying to conceptualize how it plays in my mind.

Also, thank you for sticking with this for as long as you have. I never expect people to do so when they're not usually compensated for it, as there's more important things you could be doing instead of catering to us.

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by Zephyrinius »

What's the point of the ferrous/cupric chain. I don't seem to understand what advantages it has over pure/raw sorting. It looks to have the disadvantages of both (combined inputs and combined outputs) with none of the advantages that would normally accompany it...
Ferrous sorting is by far the most efficient way to make steel, since manganese converts to steel at 1:1 whereas iron is 4:1.
As others have said, cupric sorting can be a good way to get a large part of your copper, tin, and some other ores without needing catalysts (thus increasing the yield).

I can't wait for the new bioprocessing and industries stuff!

Angel, thanks for making the prod modules in sorters more consistent. I have one more question about productivity modules being allowed: currently prod modules are allowed in casting machines but not in strand casting machines. This more than negates the increased yield advantage of making coils, even in Seablock (what I'm currently playing) where productivity modules have been nerfed. The compression advantage of coils remains, of course. I want to use the coils recipes with all the associated complexity, but it seems counter-productive overall since it robs me of the productivity module bonus.

I understand that productivity modules wouldn't make sense in the strand casting machines because of coolant. Perhaps instead of casting machines, it should be, say, ore processing machines that accept productivity modules?

It's interesting to hear that you don't like productivity modules -- perhaps it would be worth including an option to disable their use? I can see that being fun (though at the moment I'm taking full advantage of them to deal with the massive production requirements of SpaceX).

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by Warrie »

Zephyrinius wrote:Ferrous sorting is by far the most efficient way to make steel, since manganese converts to steel at 1:1 whereas iron is 4:1.
Correct me if im wrong but isnt the same true for silicon? if you break it down you can create 4 silicon ore out of 4 crushed ores. while with mangese you get 2 mangese and 2 iron ores from 4 crushed wich is worse, steel wise.
Still the nickel/cobalt/iron recipe seems most efficient crushed ore>steel wise.
Zephyrinius wrote:currently prod modules are allowed in casting machines but not in strand casting machines.
But prod modules are now enabled for assembling machines in sheet coil>plate wich makes the strand casting route ~twice as productive as the casting one.

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by Arch666Angel »

Image
The model on the right is probably gonna get scrapped, not happy with it :P
Image

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by Termak »

Warrie wrote:
Zephyrinius wrote:currently prod modules are allowed in casting machines but not in strand casting machines.
But prod modules are now enabled for assembling machines in sheet coil>plate wich makes the strand casting route ~twice as productive as the casting one.
This is actually my biggest issue with Bobs, the higher tier machines have so many module slots combined with Bobs raw speed and prod modules makes them insanely good.
I love the multitier modules but if i use them on high tier machines, everything becomes almost free, so one doesnt even need complicated train networks with mining outposts anymore. :(

I hope you fix this "issue" if/when you expand over to the actual assemblers and maybe even modules.

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by ukezi »

I would like to criticize your new parts of the Bio Processing Mod. The main point of critic is, that you have the divide between the crops that use the dormant seed and those that don't. The one with dormant seeds are nearly impossible to scale up. The other ones scale up at like 1:4, so even if you only have a few seeds, you can quickly start lots of farms. With the other, like not at all. Also Corn can get you oil and pulp the others not so much.

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by mrvn »

ukezi wrote:I would like to criticize your new parts of the Bio Processing Mod. The main point of critic is, that you have the divide between the crops that use the dormant seed and those that don't. The one with dormant seeds are nearly impossible to scale up. The other ones scale up at like 1:4, so even if you only have a few seeds, you can quickly start lots of farms. With the other, like not at all. Also Corn can get you oil and pulp the others not so much.
For dormant seeds you get a 5% growth rate. It's exponential so you just have to be patient. I rather see the opposite problem there. What do you do with the excess seeds? There is no sink for them. Without void chests your production will eventually ground to a halt because buffer/storage chests will be full.

For scaling up have you considered using the recipe to grow gardens from gardens and produce seeds from the excess gardens?

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by Light »

mrvn wrote:
ukezi wrote:I would like to criticize your new parts of the Bio Processing Mod. The main point of critic is, that you have the divide between the crops that use the dormant seed and those that don't. The one with dormant seeds are nearly impossible to scale up. The other ones scale up at like 1:4, so even if you only have a few seeds, you can quickly start lots of farms. With the other, like not at all. Also Corn can get you oil and pulp the others not so much.
For dormant seeds you get a 5% growth rate. It's exponential so you just have to be patient. I rather see the opposite problem there. What do you do with the excess seeds? There is no sink for them. Without void chests your production will eventually ground to a halt because buffer/storage chests will be full.
This was my concern while testing as well, which unsurprisingly grinded everything to a halt pretty rapidly when I left it unattended for a few hours.

The idea of getting dormant seeds as a bonus to prolong material use is nice, but it's more practical as 2 seed + 5% to prevent the inevitable lockup while still giving gardens a reason to be cultivated in larger quantities and to continue exploring for them in the world. It's also very unusual to have 40+ farms for one seed type yet just 2-3 farms for another, causing this imbalanced segregation between the two types which is rather jarring visually. It would be much nicer to have gardens cultivating from 40+ seed extractors with a more balanced set of farms for each seed. The fate of RNG then deciding the seeds from gardens rather than it always being a guarantee from dormant seeds leads to some interesting ideas with regards to balancing how many farms you can keep running constantly based on garden cultivation and other factors. The math headache would be rather delightfully painful... in a sadistic yet satisfying sense.

No comment about the corn/fruits though. It still looked incomplete so I didn't test that far into it.

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