Development and Discussion

Infinite Ores, Refining, Ore Processing ...

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Mcdt2
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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by Mcdt2 »

eloquentJane wrote:As for your other question, plastic - and the rest of the oil industry - is...complicated. There's not really a "basic" way of obtaining it. As far as I can tell, the earliest possible way to get plastic is using propene in an advanced chemical plant, though there are quicker and more efficient methods unlocked with further research (efficiency increases with complexity).

The simplest way I can find of obtaining propene (and I think the only way) is as follows:

•Extract multi-phase oil from an oil patch using a pumpjack
•Separate multi-phase oil into crude oil (and byproducts) in an oil and gas separator
•Produce naphtha (and byproducts) in a refinery using crude oil
•Synthesize propene in a steam cracker using naphtha
There's a couple different ways of getting propene that I've found, though I'm still new to PetroChem myself. Personally, I'm creating it from Methanol. Couple ways of making that too, though I forget at which tech points these unlock.

1st way:
  • One of those byproducts for multi-phase oil is Raw Gas, which can also be obtained by putting Natural Gas (a different type of oil patch, it looks green) in the same building
  • Raw Gas can be put into a Gas Refinery to produce Natural Gas Liquids (and by products)
  • Another round in the Gas Refinery (Recipe is called "Gas Fractioning") can break the Natural Gas Liquids into Methane and byproducts
  • Use a Steam Cracker and Purified Water to make Methanol
  • Another round in the cracker to synthesize Propene
2nd Way:
  • For the next step, you need to be able to produce Carbon Dioxide (put coal in a Liquifier), and Green Metal Catalysts (Silver ore and Bauxite, plus a small startup of iron for reusable Metal Catalyst Carriers)
  • in a standard Chemical Plant, use Catalytic Synthesis (The previous 2 ingredients plus Hydrogen )to create Methanol
  • Use Steam Cracker to crack to Propene, as above
Probably several other ways to get some of these ingredients, but that's part of what I love about this mod; so many different paths to achieve your goals. And I haven't even gotten into figuring out methods of plastic production besides Propene

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Arch666Angel
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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by Arch666Angel »

So yeah Smelting...halfway
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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by septemberWaves »

Arch666Angel wrote:So yeah Smelting...halfway
Image
Are those some new smelting steps I see? Looks pretty fun.

If you're adding new metallurgy processes (at least, I think those are new, either that or I just haven't discovered those processes yet) perhaps it would be a good idea to add a process for iron and copper smelting that requires blue science. Currently you can achieve the maximum efficiency on iron/copper processing before even unlocking oil (although it does require Mk1 machines). I think it would be nice to introduce one more refining step to increase the yields of both of those metals and have it require blue science - either that, or make it so that pellet processing requires blue science even at the most basic level. That being said, with Factorio rapidly approaching version 0.15 I don't imagine that such a change would take high priority considering the impending science overhaul.

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by aklesey1 »

Arch666Angel wrote:So yeah Smelting...halfway
Image
Intersintg, interesting... :)
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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by MainTango »

What are the new metals? Is it copper tungsten and tungsten carbide?

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by aklesey1 »

MainTango wrote:What are the new metals? Is it copper tungsten and tungsten carbide?
I precisely see platinum and manganese here, just look into constant combinator u can find unused resources there, and may be we can see chrome or chromium here
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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by SoulForge »

Angel,

Do you have any plans to support AnonyMod?

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Arch666Angel
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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by Arch666Angel »

Test version, use on your own risk. Processing Chains have changed alot, adding/updating a running game will probably break everything, but nothing should get removed.
https://github.com/Arch666Angel/angelso ... _0.2.0.zip

To do:
-finish overrides
-change ratios for processes requiring multiple steps (are on a 1 to 1 ratio at the moment)
-adding strand casting machine
-add barrel recipes for chemicals
-add recipes to convert coils to plate/wire

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by StormTAG »

And here I was about to add in my own recipes for brass. I'll check it out.

What would the strand casting machine do?

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steinio
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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by steinio »

Arch666Angel wrote:Test version, use on your own risk. Processing Chains have changed alot, adding/updating a running game will probably break everything, but nothing should get removed.
https://github.com/Arch666Angel/angelso ... _0.2.0.zip

To do:
-finish overrides
-change ratios for processes requiring multiple steps (are on a 1 to 1 ratio at the moment)
-adding strand casting machine
-add barrel recipes for chemicals
-add recipes to convert coils to plate/wire

Image
Does it also change iron and copper processing?

Do you already think about a nice design for a rail tanker skin as it gets vanilla soon? I like your yellow train.

Greetings steinio
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My little mods: Link | My favourite mods: Bob's Mods | Angel's Mods | Yuoki Railway Core | EvoGUI | Logistic Train Network
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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by kingarthur »

ive only had about 30 mins after you posted smelting 2.0 to mess with it but ive come across a few issues.
1. looks like all of the plates have been replaced with angels plates but doesn't update any already produced plates which leaves them unable to be used in anything.
2. some items seem to be broken like the "new?" washer tech building says it requires "1x something went wrong" to make it.
3, bio processing has a second tier tech after the alien goo tech that is empty.

i dont know if the plates can be migrated over or maybe need a converter recipe. i was trying to fix it myself but so far haven't got to to migrate and ive got like 2.5 million plates i dont want to have to find and destroy

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by Sedar »

I will add my two cents of feedback about metallurgy. Firstly it looks cool, realistic and interesting. But this beauty loses Bob's legacy after simple calculations. Here is a comparison of similar factories for the production of copper plates:
Screenshots
We see that energy consumption is almost twice as high. But in my opinion this is not the biggest problem.

Pollution. Let's count how much pollution generates each of the setups. So the legacy of Bob: 16 * 0.9 = 14.4

Compared:
2 * 2.14
1 * 2.14
4 * 6
6 * 2.14
9 * 2.14
Total 18 * 2.14 + 6 * 4 = 62.52

In total Angel`s setup is twice as energy-intensive and in 4.34 generates more pollution.

And this comparison of the most primitive scheme of Bob from the beginning of the game with the High-tech of Angel`s metallurgy machines.
Yes, we need one and a half times less ore, but this does not compensate for excessive pollution.

If you add to the conditions of the task the modules.. Then everything becomes even sadder. Just my opinion.

Arch666Angel wrote:
NewSwiss wrote:
afk2minute wrote:Just make loaders consume ALOT of energy.
I don't like this idea. As of now, loaders don't consume any power IIRC, which enables you to really saturate things without worrying where to fit power poles. Requiring power would change how they can be used. And maybe this is just me, but I don't think of loaders as electronic, just like ramps that allow a chest or machine to dump their contents onto a belt as fast as the belt can carry it away.
I would agree if they dont have filters, but they have. Also the entity the loader is competing against is the inserter, which needs energy and has a drain. So the point of the loader is that it has no real downside, making them more expensive is no real solution, because you will reach a point where you dont care anymore.
In addition, about another important topic. Loaders. I got acquainted with the discussion on the previous pages. And I agree with both sides, those who think that loaders are too OP. And with those who believe that they are so convenient that it justifies this OP.
I propose to add two versions of the loaders: a version without filters, with components as now and a loader with the ability to filter, which requires a "rare" component for production.

PS: Angel, thanks for your mods, they are GREAT!

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by StormTAG »

Twice the energy for a 50% improvement in efficency sounds fair. But also a quadrupling of pollution does seem excessive.

Also, Sedar, what tool is that?

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by Sedar »

StormTAG wrote: Also, Sedar, what tool is that?
This is the most convenient mod for base planning: https://mods.factorio.com/mods/Helfima/helmod

btw, pay atention:
NOTES

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by StormTAG »

@Sedar: Cool. I'll check it out.


Notes and bugs:

I'm guessing Solid Sand and Solid Mud will be used for something eventually. In the mean time might I suggest a recipe to turn Solid Mud into Stone Bricks? Maybe a recipe to take Solid Sand and water and create Saline Water?

The iron recipes seem to have a bug. Adding in additional metals for alloying results in the same amount of Iron.

Chemical Furnace is missing its locale entry. I imagine a more interesting recipe is also coming.

Would you like any help with making any of these recipes? Are you open to pull requests?

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by aklesey1 »

New update for refining mod is cool, but how to distinguish among themselves Mud water and the Mineralized water? I hope you will think up for them icons that differences were visible
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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by aklesey1 »

New elements - anodes and cathodes - so we can wait for Angel electronic overhaul? Please tell us, because it will be really awesome, it will be serious challenge :mrgreen:
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Air
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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by Air »

Does it ever make sense to smelt raw ore into ingots? Pellet press and processing factory are cheap, fast, small. Perhaps instead they should be the ones responsible for the major part of pollution, electricity and space requirement? Or they could emit junk byproducts? They could produce waste that must be transported elsewhere. i.e. dumped into the sea.

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by Light »

Sedar wrote:I will add my two cents of feedback about metallurgy. Firstly it looks cool, realistic and interesting. But this beauty loses Bob's legacy after simple calculations. Here is a comparison of similar factories for the production of copper plates:
Screenshots
We see that energy consumption is almost twice as high. But in my opinion this is not the biggest problem.

Pollution. Let's count how much pollution generates each of the setups. So the legacy of Bob: 16 * 0.9 = 14.4

Compared:
2 * 2.14
1 * 2.14
4 * 6
6 * 2.14
9 * 2.14
Total 18 * 2.14 + 6 * 4 = 62.52

In total Angel`s setup is twice as energy-intensive and in 4.34 generates more pollution.

And this comparison of the most primitive scheme of Bob from the beginning of the game with the High-tech of Angel`s metallurgy machines.
Yes, we need one and a half times less ore, but this does not compensate for excessive pollution.

If you add to the conditions of the task the modules.. Then everything becomes even sadder. Just my opinion.
The fun part is when I calculated the number of smelting machines I owned for every single ore, I ended up with a lovely 1,784 PU.

Given I use some biter mods, one of which multiplies pollution by 10, plus raw modules disabled so only regular speed module 8's are used. It's fair to say the pollution for my smelting line is way into the tens of thousands, which sure prompted the use of air filtering mods to try to contain it best as possible.

However, with yield increasing hopefully going a lot higher, the mining outposts may be active less often and it may compensate in that regard. The main takeaway I get from smelting at this point is that fewer mining outposts are required, plus the ore refining setup is smaller since it doesn't need to produce as many ores, but I imagine calculating the entire process would take quite a bit of work to compare traditional smelting and Angel's smelting from start to finish. Especially when calculating both the tier and number of miners to achieve the same end result.
StormTAG wrote:I'm guessing Solid Sand and Solid Mud will be used for something eventually. In the mean time might I suggest a recipe to turn Solid Mud into Stone Bricks?
They're meant to be used for molds and such, but I'd absolutely love to bake mud/clay into stone bricks via furnaces. That would save so much crushed stone for additional mineral slurry.

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Arch666Angel
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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by Arch666Angel »

Take away for me:
-change the plate overrides to just change the gfx and ordering, too much of a hassle to actually override them
-adding recipe to make bricks out of clay

For the argument with the pollution:
If you take into account the number of mining drill you dont have to run when using the pellet, compared to not using them, how does it come up then. Because the majority of the pollution is produced by the drills themselves. I enabled productivity for the casting machines, so you can even boost the endproduct some more.

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