Development and Discussion

[afk2minute]

Thermal water is also used for catalysts, and catalyst processes are much more usefull then simple sorting.

[aklesey1]

Thermal water is also used for catalysts, and catalyst processes are much more usefull then simple sorting.

You're wrong - all catalysts can be crafted from mineral skudge not from thermal water - thermal water can be intermediate element for crafting mineral sludge

[Nilaus]

I managed to find a working copy of Petrochem on Github.

It seems that this mod has a very hard link to Bob's Mods. I wanted to play Vanilla + all of Angels Mods, but that was not possible. There are references to Cobalt Ore, Bauxite Ore, so I tried to load as few Bob's Mods as possible, but it seems the best/worst one is required: Electronics due to references to the Circuit Boards.

Is this just for the initial testing as you develop it or do you intend to have such a hard dependency with this mod?

It seems my choices at the moment are Angels Ore/Refining/Processing or all of Angels + all of Bobs (which seems incredibly daunting).

If you have something specific you would like to focus testing of the Petrochems on, then just let me know. I've looked at the beautiful diagrams you have created and ingame there are 3 types of plastics, but I don't think they are compatible with Bob's Mods. What are they supposed to be used for.

[orzelek]

I managed to find a working copy of Petrochem on Github.

It seems that this mod has a very hard link to Bob's Mods. I wanted to play Vanilla + all of Angels Mods, but that was not possible. There are references to Cobalt Ore, Bauxite Ore, so I tried to load as few Bob's Mods as possible, but it seems the best/worst one is required: Electronics due to references to the Circuit Boards.

Is this just for the initial testing as you develop it or do you intend to have such a hard dependency with this mod?

It seems my choices at the moment are Angels Ore/Refining/Processing or all of Angels + all of Bobs (which seems incredibly daunting).

If you have something specific you would like to focus testing of the Petrochems on, then just let me know. I've looked at the beautiful diagrams you have created and ingame there are 3 types of plastics, but I don't think they are compatible with Bob's Mods. What are they supposed to be used for.

Tbh angel's don't really make any sense without bob's mods. In vanilla there are 2 resources so not much to process there.

[iceman_1212]

A question re: the infinite ore tiles.

How exactly do the infinite ores work in terms of the relationship between the "yield" statistic as reported by an ore tile and the rate statistic as reported by a mining drill? I'm not sure what to make of the rate statistic at all - initially, I assumed it was the rate at which resources would be gathered by that particular piece of equipment it seems that's not the case:



(please pardon my potato PC graphics )

In the image, the drill reports a rate of 53.8 / second, which would be sufficient to (more than) compress a blue belt. However, we can see from the sparse belt above that this figure is not meant to report the production rate. (As reference the ore tiles below this particular drill all have "20% yield" but the actual ore output is much less than 20% times 53.8.) Complicating the matter further is that there is a surge in production rate every few seconds (but that's still well below 53.8s) which I don't really understand.

So my question is: how can we calculate (or estimate) the actual production rate of a mining drill on an infinite ore patch aside from in-game testing? Would be helpful for being able to plan for equipment in advance of traveling to outposts.

EDIT: updated to show a picture where you can actually see the belt

[mexmer]

I managed to find a working copy of Petrochem on Github.

It seems that this mod has a very hard link to Bob's Mods. I wanted to play Vanilla + all of Angels Mods, but that was not possible. There are references to Cobalt Ore, Bauxite Ore, so I tried to load as few Bob's Mods as possible, but it seems the best/worst one is required: Electronics due to references to the Circuit Boards.

Is this just for the initial testing as you develop it or do you intend to have such a hard dependency with this mod?

It seems my choices at the moment are Angels Ore/Refining/Processing or all of Angels + all of Bobs (which seems incredibly daunting).

If you have something specific you would like to focus testing of the Petrochems on, then just let me know. I've looked at the beautiful diagrams you have created and ingame there are 3 types of plastics, but I don't think they are compatible with Bob's Mods. What are they supposed to be used for.

Tbh angel's don't really make any sense without bob's mods. In vanilla there are 2 resources so not much to process there.

while i agree that vanilla with angels will not have such "richness", still all rerefences needs to be fixed so "optional" dependencies are really optional, and not that game will either fail to load, or you will be unable to build something, if you miss "optional" dependency.

also enforcing dependency on some other person mods is mistake imo, angels mods itself have good level of complexity to be able to work alone.

[aklesey1]

Question about Petrochem resources
1) Petrochem carbon is not analog of bob mods carbon?
2) Where to use new type sodium hydroxide from petrochem?

[afk2minute]

Thermal water is also used for catalysts, and catalyst processes are much more usefull then simple sorting.

You're wrong - all catalysts can be crafted from mineral skudge not from thermal water - thermal water can be intermediate element for crafting mineral sludge

Ahh ok, thats right, its just me using only thermal water as mineral sludge provider.

[ZombieMooose]

There's a bug associated with your mod and SJT-DirtyOre, where when both are installed you cannot research the required technology to process dirty and trace ores. I don't know if this is an issue on your, or their end, or if it's a little bit of both, but it only seems to be a problem when they're both installed.

Anyway I would love to see compatibility between the two as I think the added complexity would benefit the particular game I desire.

Thanks for your consideration.

[Arch666Angel]

Lithia water from termal water.......... in bob mods i could get lithia water from vanilla water an that was conveniently
Yes angel mods provides more realistic chains, but it is far from perfect

I offered some new improvments:
1) Getting water via burning hydrogen - because we can get very big counts of hydrogen and we need at least simple water
2) Drilling holes for getting oil, water or gas

I'm still waiting for any answers from our respected talanted modder Arch666Angel

I could add in another recipe to turn back H and O back to water, but this would need to be restricted from productivity because it would yield stupid results making an ocean from a glass of water...But on another note I will add barreling recipes for the water types so it might make this easier.

actually, i think i just figured it out! the thermal water can be used as an alternative to slurry for generating mineral sludge in the filtration unit. when done with ceramic filtering, it's like free money in the ground :O *quickly runs over to fissure and starts laying down pipeline*

Thermal water can be used in several recipes:
-turn it into mineral sludge
-filter it for lithia water
-combine with naptha (petrochem - soon)
-grow algae (bio processing- soon)

I managed to find a working copy of Petrochem on Github.

It seems that this mod has a very hard link to Bob's Mods. I wanted to play Vanilla + all of Angels Mods, but that was not possible. There are references to Cobalt Ore, Bauxite Ore, so I tried to load as few Bob's Mods as possible, but it seems the best/worst one is required: Electronics due to references to the Circuit Boards.

Is this just for the initial testing as you develop it or do you intend to have such a hard dependency with this mod?

It seems my choices at the moment are Angels Ore/Refining/Processing or all of Angels + all of Bobs (which seems incredibly daunting).

If you have something specific you would like to focus testing of the Petrochems on, then just let me know. I've looked at the beautiful diagrams you have created and ingame there are 3 types of plastics, but I don't think they are compatible with Bob's Mods. What are they supposed to be used for.

I updated the link in the thread to the latest one which is on github, but there will be a new version in the next days i think. And yes dont expect anything after ores and refining to have a vanilla mode, there are already mods out there for the use with vanilla like hardcrafting and N.TechChemistry. Also as I said it in the past: I wont go through the hassle and make all mods failprove for every combination of bobs, I will only go with the full bobs.

A question re: the infinite ore tiles.

How exactly do the infinite ores work in terms of the relationship between the "yield" statistic as reported by an ore tile and the rate statistic as reported by a mining drill? I'm not sure what to make of the rate statistic at all - initially, I assumed it was the rate at which resources would be gathered by that particular piece of equipment it seems that's not the case:

(please pardon my potato PC graphics )

In the image, the drill reports a rate of 53.8 / second, which would be sufficient to (more than) compress a blue belt. However, we can see from the sparse belt above that this figure is not meant to report the production rate. (As reference the ore tiles below this particular drill all have "20% yield" but the actual ore output is much less than 20% times 53.8.) Complicating the matter further is that there is a surge in production rate every few seconds (but that's still well below 53.8s) which I don't really understand.

So my question is: how can we calculate (or estimate) the actual production rate of a mining drill on an infinite ore patch aside from in-game testing? Would be helpful for being able to plan for equipment in advance of traveling to outposts.

EDIT: updated to show a picture where you can actually see the belt

With regular resources the miner sums up the amount of ore the miner has in its area, but the miner will only mine one random tile at a time. With infinite resources the game does the same, so it sums up the yield of the tiles the miner is placed up on, but will only mine one random tile at a time, so the displayed yield is more than misleading. As far as I understand the whole mechanic when the yield drops below 100% you get a chance to produce an ore each time the miner cycles. So with 50% yield you have a 50% chance to get an ore. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

I managed to find a working copy of Petrochem on Github.

It seems that this mod has a very hard link to Bob's Mods. I wanted to play Vanilla + all of Angels Mods, but that was not possible. There are references to Cobalt Ore, Bauxite Ore, so I tried to load as few Bob's Mods as possible, but it seems the best/worst one is required: Electronics due to references to the Circuit Boards.

Is this just for the initial testing as you develop it or do you intend to have such a hard dependency with this mod?

It seems my choices at the moment are Angels Ore/Refining/Processing or all of Angels + all of Bobs (which seems incredibly daunting).

If you have something specific you would like to focus testing of the Petrochems on, then just let me know. I've looked at the beautiful diagrams you have created and ingame there are 3 types of plastics, but I don't think they are compatible with Bob's Mods. What are they supposed to be used for.

Tbh angel's don't really make any sense without bob's mods. In vanilla there are 2 resources so not much to process there.

while i agree that vanilla with angels will not have such "richness", still all rerefences needs to be fixed so "optional" dependencies are really optional, and not that game will either fail to load, or you will be unable to build something, if you miss "optional" dependency.

also enforcing dependency on some other person mods is mistake imo, angels mods itself have good level of complexity to be able to work alone.

Dont take this the wrong way, but I dont "need" to do anything. The mods are setup the way so it is easier for me to check for things, sure I could shift around everything but I would run into other issues in doing so and I really think that the way they are is working really well if you take the time of reading the thread and how to use them. Also it is also part of a fault in the game, why not give an error message disable the mod and start the game so one can change things, instead of CTD?
To explain things: The load/dependency order is reversed so infinite ores can check for refining and bobs and can load resources accordingly.

[Arch666Angel]

There's a bug associated with your mod and SJT-DirtyOre, where when both are installed you cannot research the required technology to process dirty and trace ores. I don't know if this is an issue on your, or their end, or if it's a little bit of both, but it only seems to be a problem when they're both installed.

Anyway I would love to see compatibility between the two as I think the added complexity would benefit the particular game I desire.

Thanks for your consideration.

He used my code as a basis, so I guess he forgot to change some of the names around and that there is a conflict right now.

[aklesey1]

Waiting for changing in Processing mod, Refinering mod was updated as can saw
Waste water with big amount of sulfur is still big problem if i don't want to use clarifier

And question

Bob mod's have recipe for sulfuric acid:
5 sulfur + 5 oxygen = 5 sulfuric dioxide (strange - why its dioxide (!!!) not monooxide - if we want exactly dioxide we need 10 oxygen not 5 oxygen, right? )
And Petrochem mod have recipe:
1 sulfur + 5 oxygen = 5 sulfuric dioxide


Can someone explain to me which recipie is right, because recipe from Petrochem mod looks like impossible from the point of view of chemical reactions, may Arch666Angel can did mistake?

[steinio]

Sulfur dioxide is SO2 so you need 1 Sulfur and 2 Oxygen.

[mexmer]

I managed to find a working copy of Petrochem on Github.

It seems that this mod has a very hard link to Bob's Mods. I wanted to play Vanilla + all of Angels Mods, but that was not possible. There are references to Cobalt Ore, Bauxite Ore, so I tried to load as few Bob's Mods as possible, but it seems the best/worst one is required: Electronics due to references to the Circuit Boards.

Is this just for the initial testing as you develop it or do you intend to have such a hard dependency with this mod?

It seems my choices at the moment are Angels Ore/Refining/Processing or all of Angels + all of Bobs (which seems incredibly daunting).

If you have something specific you would like to focus testing of the Petrochems on, then just let me know. I've looked at the beautiful diagrams you have created and ingame there are 3 types of plastics, but I don't think they are compatible with Bob's Mods. What are they supposed to be used for.

Tbh angel's don't really make any sense without bob's mods. In vanilla there are 2 resources so not much to process there.

while i agree that vanilla with angels will not have such "richness", still all rerefences needs to be fixed so "optional" dependencies are really optional, and not that game will either fail to load, or you will be unable to build something, if you miss "optional" dependency.

also enforcing dependency on some other person mods is mistake imo, angels mods itself have good level of complexity to be able to work alone.

Dont take this the wrong way, but I dont "need" to do anything. The mods are setup the way so it is easier for me to check for things, sure I could shift around everything but I would run into other issues in doing so and I really think that the way they are is working really well if you take the time of reading the thread and how to use them. Also it is also part of a fault in the game, why not give an error message disable the mod and start the game so one can change things, instead of CTD?
To explain things: The load/dependency order is reversed so infinite ores can check for refining and bobs and can load resources accordingly.

I agree with you on that part, that dependency loading could be done better, and need wait for devs to do something about that.

for people that are not familiar all dependent mods or not use them at all might be problematic to figure out where problem lies, tho' . not saying that's your fault.

still IMO, at least you should make sure that dependencies on your own mods are proper (see problem with angels-fissure)

I could add in another recipe to turn back H and O back to water, but this would need to be restricted from productivity because it would yield stupid results making an ocean from a glass of water...But on another note I will add barreling recipes for the water types so it might make this easier.

this makes me wonder, how far we are from getting to test universal barreling (planed for 0.15), atm. i use rail tankers mod (also planed for 0.15).
While tankers are easy to use, barrels are welcome, because logic bot cannot carry train

[afk2minute]

Sulfur dioxide is SO2 so you need 1 Sulfur and 2 Oxygen.

But Oxygen is O2 not O (atomic oxygen is quite hard to make). So 1:1 seems the right thing.

[mexmer]

Sulfur dioxide is SO2 so you need 1 Sulfur and 2 Oxygen.

But Oxygen is O2 not O (atomic oxygen is quite hard to make). So 1:1 seems the right thing.

if you want to go this "far" then you need to revisit all of chemical recipes - since, how can you then create only 1 unit of H2O from hydrogen and oxygen, when your O is in fact O2?

i really would not go this far. but consistency is required anyway. there should not be 2 processes that have same input resource and same output resource, with different input cost. otherwise you need to include "catalyst" component in one of them.

mistakes happen, since angels mods are quite complex and must be hard to track everything

[aklesey1]

But Oxygen is O2 not O (atomic oxygen is quite hard to make). So 1:1 seems the right thing.

Yes yes, we getting O2 but not O1, this is my gap in my education in chemistry, there are many details to consider, but we don't need to be so accurate here in our favorite game

[afk2minute]

Sulfur dioxide is SO2 so you need 1 Sulfur and 2 Oxygen.

But Oxygen is O2 not O (atomic oxygen is quite hard to make). So 1:1 seems the right thing.

if you want to go this "far" then you need to revisit all of chemical recipes - since, how can you then create only 1 unit of H2O from hydrogen and oxygen, when your O is in fact O2?

i really would not go this far. but consistency is required anyway. there should not be 2 processes that have same input resource and same output resource, with different input cost. otherwise you need to include "catalyst" component in one of them.

mistakes happen, since angels mods are quite complex and must be hard to track everything

Well then then all recipes should be fixed according to this "O2" thing OR consider everything atomic so it will be easier to calculate... Actually i would prefer second way.

[steinio]

But Oxygen is O2 not O (atomic oxygen is quite hard to make). So 1:1 seems the right thing.

Yes yes, we getting O2 but not O1, this is my gap in my education in chemistry, there are many details to consider, but we don't need to be so accurate here in our favorite game

Whats the recipe from water electrolysis?
It should then be 2 H2O -> 2 H2 and 1 O2

[Exasperation]

Waiting for changing in Processing mod, Refinering mod was updated as can saw
Waste water with big amount of sulfur is still big problem if i don't want to use clarifier

And question

Bob mod's have recipe for sulfuric acid:
5 sulfur + 5 oxygen = 5 sulfuric dioxide (strange - why its dioxide (!!!) not monooxide - if we want exactly dioxide we need 10 oxygen not 5 oxygen, right? )
And Petrochem mod have recipe:
1 sulfur + 5 oxygen = 5 sulfuric dioxide


Can someone explain to me which recipie is right, because recipe from Petrochem mod looks like impossible from the point of view of chemical reactions, may Arch666Angel can did mistake?

Neither recipe is right, or wrong for that matter. The game (wisely, I would say) does not include standardized units for its ingredients. If you assume they're measured by mass, that leads to different ratios than if they're measured by volume (presumably at standard temperature and pressure), which leads to different ratios than if they're measured in moles. And even if you've decided that everything should be measured in a particular way (let's say in kilograms for the sake of argument), there is still no indication that an arbitrary unit of Oxygen is the same number of kilograms as an arbitrary unit of Sulfur. So whoever makes the recipes can decide on the ratios for game balance reasons rather than realism reasons, because there is no way to measure how realistic a ratio is. Angel has simply decided that a unit of Sulfur is 5 times as much as Bob did. If it bothers you, just assume that the process in the Bob's recipe is less efficient, and wastes 80% of the Sulfur input as unwanted byproducts (released as pollution). Or if you want to expend the effort, you can just write a simple mini-mod to override one recipe to match the other (whichever way around you feel is better).