Development and Discussion

Infinite Ores, Refining, Ore Processing ...

Moderator: Arch666Angel

Post Reply
POPISowyNumer
Long Handed Inserter
Long Handed Inserter
Posts: 60
Joined: Thu May 05, 2016 1:31 pm
Contact:

Re: Development and Discussion

Post by POPISowyNumer » Sun Feb 10, 2019 10:43 pm

I've got an idea about big and smol assemblers last night.
What if smaller assemblers were cheaper to build and faster at work, but more expensive to run, while bigger were the opposite?
So for example smol t1 assembler prepares two iron gears in 0,66 s (33% gain), but requires 5 iron plates (25% loss) to do so?
While big one prepares six of these in 5 seconds (66% loss), but for sweet sweet bargain of 10 (16% gain) iron plates per run?
Thus the choice of size boils down for fast but wasteful vs slow but cheaper

and recipes can be locked via techs, so an assembler unlocked by low tier tech can only manufacture low tier items, regardless of amount of ingredients

User avatar
BlueTemplar
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 987
Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2018 2:16 pm
Contact:

Re: Development and Discussion

Post by BlueTemplar » Mon Feb 11, 2019 9:52 am

Well, this could *also* be dealt with using a different number of module slots...
(so that big assemblers can have more production modules)

(Also, initially, small assemblers come from Bob's Assembler Machines mod, where they are limited to electronics, you can probably find discussion about their capabilities there...)

GrumpyJoe
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 331
Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2018 7:10 pm
Contact:

Re: Development and Discussion

Post by GrumpyJoe » Mon Feb 11, 2019 12:25 pm

POPISowyNumer wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 10:43 pm
What if smaller assemblers were cheaper to build and faster at work, but more expensive to run, while bigger were the opposite?
So for example smol t1 assembler prepares two iron gears in 0,66 s (33% gain), but requires 5 iron plates (25% loss) to do so?
While big one prepares six of these in 5 seconds (66% loss), but for sweet sweet bargain of 10 (16% gain) iron plates per run?
Thus the choice of size boils down for fast but wasteful vs slow but cheaper

and recipes can be locked via techs, so an assembler unlocked by low tier tech can only manufacture low tier items, regardless of amount of ingredients
this sounds not only like an idea for different sizes/speeds/consumption/productivity, but also like you´d need different reciepes for different machines, like Bluetemplar pointed out about only electronics stuff made in the 2x2 assemblers that come with Bob´s.
Definatly possible and something i dont think Angel is against. After about 1 year of AB, the Whinning cells for Ferrous upgrade i just built are the first i ever saw. And i also watch alot of YT. kinda sad not many use the dedicated machines.
Different machines dedicated to different production lines/reciepes is what these Mods are all about, specially Angel´s, and it would be sad if they were just bigger copies of AMs.

If anything, i´d love to have production lines of intermediates split up more.
Like metallurgy smelting/casting does. Its the part i love the most.
So, lets say better looking dedicated electronic machines, battery press (are they pressed?), gear wheel stamps, pipe assemlers that are like 5x2 (you need alot of pipes for the buildings alone)
Or rework some petrochem reciepes (if it makes sense chemicaly) to have 3 ingedience, so you have to use advanced chemical plant more.

User avatar
BlueTemplar
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 987
Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2018 2:16 pm
Contact:

Re: Development and Discussion

Post by BlueTemplar » Mon Feb 11, 2019 1:49 pm

But Angel's Refining has tons of different machines ?
Maybe you haven't seen Electro Whinning because it's all down in the end of the refining tech tree ?

In my experience with YouTubers, they generally didn't knew how to play the games
(because they were often playing the games for the first time, so mods were pretty much never used),
and sometimes didn't even bother playing the tutorials beforehand,
so watching them would be painful if not for the impressive showmanship of some of them.
But I got the impression that it was somewhat different for Factorio ?

GrumpyJoe
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 331
Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2018 7:10 pm
Contact:

Re: Development and Discussion

Post by GrumpyJoe » Mon Feb 11, 2019 4:13 pm

You got me wrong
ive used all the other refining machines for a long time, because, like i said, its the part of Angels i like the most.
Its just the first time i went for ferrous crystal sorting, i knew it was there, just didn´t use it, since direct sorting is way too easy ;)
Teching up is not the problem, nothing is really expensive, you´ll most likely have it research just to complete the tech tree, even when not using it.
But you can get all those ores (except chrome) in other ways, so i guess thats why we dont see it that often.

I didn´t do any math for this, i just wanted to build it for the sake of building it.
Im also only using purified ores sorting (supplemented by direct ore sorting where needed) for the big base part, starter is about to be broken down.

I like specialized machines, would be cool to get more of them.

mrvn
Smart Inserter
Smart Inserter
Posts: 3104
Joined: Mon Sep 05, 2016 9:10 am
Contact:

Re: Development and Discussion

Post by mrvn » Tue Feb 12, 2019 1:03 pm

GrumpyJoe wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 4:13 pm
You got me wrong
ive used all the other refining machines for a long time, because, like i said, its the part of Angels i like the most.
Its just the first time i went for ferrous crystal sorting, i knew it was there, just didn´t use it, since direct sorting is way too easy ;)
Teching up is not the problem, nothing is really expensive, you´ll most likely have it research just to complete the tech tree, even when not using it.
But you can get all those ores (except chrome) in other ways, so i guess thats why we dont see it that often.

I didn´t do any math for this, i just wanted to build it for the sake of building it.
Im also only using purified ores sorting (supplemented by direct ore sorting where needed) for the big base part, starter is about to be broken down.

I like specialized machines, would be cool to get more of them.
I first looked at them under SeaBlock. Cupric/Ferrous ore is easy to get and use and actually the most efficient path. But the higher levels require lubricant. With the lack of oil in SeaBlock that makes them horribly complex to get (creating crude oil from algae and dealing with a ton of intermediate and waste products).

Even in a normal Angels/Bobs game I'm not sure if they are cost effective at all. It's definetly something one should do the math for.

Cabble
Burner Inserter
Burner Inserter
Posts: 16
Joined: Sat Apr 29, 2017 6:51 pm
Contact:

Re: Development and Discussion

Post by Cabble » Tue Feb 12, 2019 1:22 pm

1. Whats the idea behind cupric ore compared to ferrous ore?
2. Why should i go further after ferrous ore?

I'm actualy playing Bobs/Angels mods.
The chain i love most is the ferrous-ore. With an output of 1:1 Iron/Managnese I'm getting a constant Iron(+Steel with iron processing) output without byproducts.
It's early available and super useful.

At the first place i think cupric ore has some equal purpose. It seems obvious that it's there to get easy bronze. Thou while outputting 1:1 Copper/Tin, bronze requires 3:1 Copper/Tin. This way I have excess Tin. Actualy I turn it with priority into molten Solder (combined with catalyst Lead sorting) and the remaining tin Ingots to Tin Plates. To be honest this complexity is much higher than ferrous ore so it feels less rewarding. What is the idea behind cupric ore? Did i miss something?

Also I'm asking myself how it's beneficial to further refine the ferrous (or cupric) ore since it kills the 1:1 iron/managnese chain.
Anyway I really like the ferrous/curpic chains.

GrumpyJoe
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 331
Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2018 7:10 pm
Contact:

Re: Development and Discussion

Post by GrumpyJoe » Tue Feb 12, 2019 2:16 pm

the thing is, you dont really want a 1:1 chain later.
Iron/manganese is only beneficial as long as you only do iron, with steel its 2:1 steel/manganese ingots. Not sure about iron into steel ingots right now.
You also need steel for Invar, Cobalt-steel and maybe something i dont remember while posting from the office :D
Manganese into Aluminium and Titanium isn´t really doing it in consuming enough manganese to produce enough iron.
Ferrous crystals give alot more iron and other useful ores. Like mrvn, im also not sure if its worth the upgrade of ferrous ore tho. But its definatly interesting. Its abit much in fluids, which ruins my fun of direct insertion smelting blocks ( i know its sorting, not smelting, still...), but seeing those whinning cells for the first time made me proud i did it.

As for cupric ore, ive yet to run it, since for building up and using alot of iron products, copper blocks my purified saphire/jivolite sorters.
But i dont think the 1:1 copper/tin ratio is as good as iron/manganese.
However, i will use them all, even the cupric crystals.

You gotta figure out what process output you have to prioritize to get the least time of full warehouses blocking more important ores. Either via belts and/or warehouse sorters, or like i do via LTN provider priorities.

Ive not calculated my base (yet) as different infinite researches use different packs. A rough guess tells me that the "best way" is to use them all and figure out a way to balance it.
And im actually building for Madclowns ore extension, 7 more raw ores to sort, Alluvium sluicing and Oil Sands processing, those purified ores will give alot of refined ores i dont know in what way they´ll help my base. Im just waiting for Madclown to "fix" some minor things to start the process.

mrvn
Smart Inserter
Smart Inserter
Posts: 3104
Joined: Mon Sep 05, 2016 9:10 am
Contact:

Re: Development and Discussion

Post by mrvn » Tue Feb 12, 2019 3:47 pm

GrumpyJoe wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 2:16 pm
the thing is, you dont really want a 1:1 chain later.
Iron/manganese is only beneficial as long as you only do iron, with steel its 2:1 steel/manganese ingots. Not sure about iron into steel ingots right now.
You also need steel for Invar, Cobalt-steel and maybe something i dont remember while posting from the office :D
Manganese into Aluminium and Titanium isn´t really doing it in consuming enough manganese to produce enough iron.
Ferrous crystals give alot more iron and other useful ores. Like mrvn, im also not sure if its worth the upgrade of ferrous ore tho. But its definatly interesting. Its abit much in fluids, which ruins my fun of direct insertion smelting blocks ( i know its sorting, not smelting, still...), but seeing those whinning cells for the first time made me proud i did it.

As for cupric ore, ive yet to run it, since for building up and using alot of iron products, copper blocks my purified saphire/jivolite sorters.
But i dont think the 1:1 copper/tin ratio is as good as iron/manganese.
However, i will use them all, even the cupric crystals.

You gotta figure out what process output you have to prioritize to get the least time of full warehouses blocking more important ores. Either via belts and/or warehouse sorters, or like i do via LTN provider priorities.

Ive not calculated my base (yet) as different infinite researches use different packs. A rough guess tells me that the "best way" is to use them all and figure out a way to balance it.
And im actually building for Madclowns ore extension, 7 more raw ores to sort, Alluvium sluicing and Oil Sands processing, those purified ores will give alot of refined ores i dont know in what way they´ll help my base. Im just waiting for Madclown to "fix" some minor things to start the process.
The thing with Ferrous/Cupric ore is that it has no waste product and no catalyst or other. Just plain crushed ore to finished product(s). It's the most efficient way to create plates (I'm not considering power, but I think it wins there too).

In SeaBlock everything comes down to slurry. The straight sorting recipes produce slag, which hurts the plates / slurry ratio. But you can feed the slag back into slurry production. Still reduces efficiency because some of your slurry production is a loop slurry -> slag -> slurry. The mixed sortings need catalysts which also costs slurry. As said the higher tires of Ferrous/Curpic ore are totaly out of the picture for me in SeaBlock and don't look interesting in plain Angel/Bob either.

In the end you have to calculate the cost for producing catalysts vs. the cost for the drill heads (or whatever they are called) for proecessing Ferrous/Cupric ore further. Also the ratio of ores you need to produce a refined ore if you don't have an excess of ore fields that you can tap. Usually when some ore is needed one can just expand and tap a new field. So one ore is pretty much as valuable as any other. Only the total amount matters. But every game is different. Anyway, the question is: Isn't producing refined ores through mixed sorting costing you less than the ferrous/cupric chain?

I don't see anything I get from later Ferrous/Cupric that I can't get otherwise and the mixed sorting lets me make up any ratio imbalances I have imho cheaper than using the later Ferrous/Cupric methods with their different ratios. But that's a gut feeling so far.

tbelaire
Burner Inserter
Burner Inserter
Posts: 9
Joined: Tue May 16, 2017 10:10 pm
Contact:

Re: Development and Discussion

Post by tbelaire » Tue Feb 12, 2019 3:59 pm

mrvn wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 3:47 pm

The thing with Ferrous/Cupric ore is that it has no waste product and no catalyst or other. Just plain crushed ore to finished product(s). It's the most efficient way to create plates (I'm not considering power, but I think it wins there too).

I don't see anything I get from later Ferrous/Cupric that I can't get otherwise and the mixed sorting lets me make up any ratio imbalances I have imho cheaper than using the later Ferrous/Cupric methods with their different ratios. But that's a gut feeling so far.
Two things, one, you need to add cupric chloride to complete the ferrous chain, and vice versa for Cupric, so there is some "catalyst" used up. Not to mention sodium hydroxide.

Two, you need to run the full Ferric process to get Chrome for black circuits. And everything from the iron chain can be used to make steel and iron, so it's possible to use it instead of combo sorting to get iron, and pull off only as much chrome as you need.

With Cupric, I don't see it. Sure, making circuit boards and tinned copper wire requires 1:1 copper and tin, which isn't bad, but I'm not really sure what to do with the higher levels. I've got one facility that does the lv 2, with silicon and tin and copper, and also does combo aluminum sorting, and produces tinned copper wire / plates, and aluminum but that's not that impressive.

I would actually really like it if I could run the higher levels without getting nearly as much copper. I'm not sure what to do with it all. I don't need that much copper wire. (I think? I haven't actually done the full math on that, and I produce copper wire separately in an older part of the base, with copper from mixed sorting I think). As it is, I don't really see a reason to do full Cupric chain.

Cabble
Burner Inserter
Burner Inserter
Posts: 16
Joined: Sat Apr 29, 2017 6:51 pm
Contact:

Re: Development and Discussion

Post by Cabble » Tue Feb 12, 2019 4:23 pm

Interesting thoughts on this. But all of you seem to agree, that Cupric is interesting, but yet underwhelming. I think it comes down to the fact, that there is always a high copper gain from start (even beside Cupric), but no appropriate (useful) copper sink. If copper was used in more useful products, the cupric chain would be very nice.

Maybe once 0.17 hits, some thoughts about a good copper sink would be nice.

GrumpyJoe
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 331
Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2018 7:10 pm
Contact:

Re: Development and Discussion

Post by GrumpyJoe » Tue Feb 12, 2019 4:25 pm

mrvn wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 3:47 pm
..
I never really run decent enough numbers that i could answer you with anything but that gut feeling you are talking about.
However, here´s what my gut tells me:
The "no side product" only goes for purified sorting (and actually producing the purified ore from crystals), as crushing gives crushed stone and washing gives geodes as side product. Making crystals from chunks "only" uses acids and fluids is just something i build, but dont care about (still making plastic from cellulose only). Washing coal (for coke) to get sulfur should get you more you´ll ever need.

If you sort "only" crystals to still get slag, or go for purified is up to what you need.
Before my current save, ive only ever sorted crushed ore and moved to direct sorting with catalysts later. You can get mineral catalysts from thermal water at a later stage (if you run out of stone), and washing for geodes(into crystal dust into crystal catalysts) is also kinda free, beside the energy.

I think what "confuses" people are 2 things.
1.) no knowing that there is direct sorting for one specific ore only. Happened to me in my first AB game, was always stuck becuase the "wrong ore" kept jamming my warehouses. I just didn´t see the reciepes for direct ore sorting and didn´t know how to use FNEI. Think i had auto research on and didn´t look at what the reseaches gave me in reciepes. :?
2.) wondering what path to go. Direct sorting, ferrous/cupric ore (or up to crystals?), mixed sorting to get slag. People tend to try get that perfect ratio games, where you need like 14:15 iron/copper for vanilla green chips when modules and beaconed. I think thats the wrong approach. These mods combined give the perfect setup for finding your own way of doing things. Would you be willing to try all that with vanilla steel chests, making massive buffers for "when you eventually need it later"?

maybe there is that one best way to go, a ratio between crushed/chunk/crystal/purified sorting plus Fe/Cu ore/dust/crystal sorting with just a tiny but of direct ore where its not quite perfect. But i haven´t seen someone post that and claim they found it. Because someone will always find some flaws. Like how much of what metal you need. Wanna research infinite mining prod, arty or bot speed? Different numbers. No definate answer.

All we can do is point people in the way of whats possible. Sure i can post my titanium smelting BP for 120ingots/sec, but what is that gonna do for others? And i think thats the best selling point for A+B (and MC in my case)

Also, i have watched a few of Nilaus´ streams of SeaBlock. But my gut feeling ofr that is: with the way ores are produced because there are no patches to mine. it is a total different game, a rework of a rework. Its not my thing and i have no idea why you bring that up. Just wandering, as my post was more like an answer to Cabble.
Last edited by GrumpyJoe on Tue Feb 12, 2019 4:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

GrumpyJoe
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 331
Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2018 7:10 pm
Contact:

Re: Development and Discussion

Post by GrumpyJoe » Tue Feb 12, 2019 4:31 pm

Cabble wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 4:23 pm
Interesting thoughts on this. But all of you seem to agree, that Cupric is interesting, but yet underwhelming. I think it comes down to the fact, that there is always a high copper gain from start (even beside Cupric), but no appropriate (useful) copper sink. If copper was used in more useful products, the cupric chain would be very nice.

Maybe once 0.17 hits, some thoughts about a good copper sink would be nice.
i think you are overlooking a major thing here.
While building up, you´ll need WAAAAY more "ferrous" ores for buildings than you´ll use copper&co in circuits and science. And even at a later stage it might not at all be balanced. Like needing 1000 ore sorters for Fe and only 500 for Cu. (not an actual ratio, just to make a point!)
That doesn´t mean the Cu chain is worse in raw ore in -> smeltable ore out.
It just means that you dont always have to build that smelter that always has the same number of machine X, for each ore, like you see in early game videos

User avatar
BlueTemplar
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 987
Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2018 2:16 pm
Contact:

Re: Development and Discussion

Post by BlueTemplar » Tue Feb 12, 2019 5:34 pm

mrvn wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 1:03 pm
I first looked at them under SeaBlock. Cupric/Ferrous ore is easy to get and use and actually the most efficient path. But the higher levels require lubricant. With the lack of oil in SeaBlock that makes them horribly complex to get (creating crude oil from algae and dealing with a ton of intermediate and waste products).
We have Farming now !
Farming_Lubricant.jpg
Farming_Lubricant.jpg (368.85 KiB) Viewed 749 times
That wood for cellulose fiber comes from Desert Trees (using Rubber recipe),
I could make it even easier by farming Zelosquash, which gives both Fruits for Nutrient Pulp *and* Cellulose Fiber !

That was my first foray into Angel Petrochem, and at least *this* recipe is not as horribly complicated as I expected (thank god for Helmod though!).
(Figuring out the most *efficient* recipe for Lubricant seems to be a couple of levels of complexity harder...)

User avatar
BlueTemplar
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 987
Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2018 2:16 pm
Contact:

Re: Development and Discussion

Post by BlueTemplar » Tue Feb 12, 2019 5:44 pm

GrumpyJoe wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 4:25 pm
Also, i have watched a few of Nilaus´ streams of SeaBlock. But my gut feeling ofr that is: with the way ores are produced because there are no patches to mine. it is a total different game, a rework of a rework. Its not my thing and i have no idea why you bring that up. Just wandering, as my post was more like an answer to Cabble.
Yeah, we should be careful about that.
Seablock makes it easier to deal with getting ores (everything is from water/air, which are basically everywhere !),
in a similar way in which Angel Refining makes it easier to get Bob's ores (by limiting them to 6 base ores).

For instance,
Washing coal (for coke) to get sulfur should get you more you´ll ever need.
This recipe is not possible in Seablock because there's no way to get Coal (nor Crushed Coal) anymore...
(However, washing Viscous Mud Water gives a tiny bit of Hydrogen Sulfide...)

User avatar
BlueTemplar
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 987
Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2018 2:16 pm
Contact:

Re: Development and Discussion

Post by BlueTemplar » Tue Feb 12, 2019 6:09 pm

Cabble wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 1:22 pm
I'm actualy playing Bobs/Angels mods.
The chain i love most is the ferrous-ore. With an output of 1:1 Iron/Managnese I'm getting a constant Iron(+Steel with iron processing) output without byproducts.
It's early available and super useful.

[...]

Also I'm asking myself how it's beneficial to further refine the ferrous (or cupric) ore since it kills the 1:1 iron/managnese chain.
Anyway I really like the ferrous/curpic chains.
I'm not sure why you seem to be so hung up on the 1:1 iron/managnese chain, considering that it's not 1:1 off the bat - you get Iron Processing at the same time !
(Actually, "earlier", considering that for manganese you also need to research Advanced Mechanical Refining and get Jivolite first...)
It's more 3:2, with the remaining 1:2 of ingots that can go to other uses... like Steel, except that you never perfectly need that kind of iron:steel plate ratio !

So, I've been using *both* Ferrous and Catalyst Iron, with Catalyst powering up when I start to lack Steel :
ModularSorting.jpg
ModularSorting.jpg (447.8 KiB) Viewed 742 times
I'm also doing it for Cupric/Copper Catalyst, but manually.

Now that I'm almost at Blue science and need Silicon for circuits and Concrete, I'm considering Cupric Powder Sorting... (that tbelaire mentioned)
(The above setup is first in line to be demolished, with *finally* more free space !)

However I don't see so far why I would want to use Ferrous Powder Sorting, the Nickel has been more of a waste product than anything for now !
(The caveat obviously being that this is Seablock that i'm talking about, so it's almost offtopic here...)

Cabble
Burner Inserter
Burner Inserter
Posts: 16
Joined: Sat Apr 29, 2017 6:51 pm
Contact:

Re: Development and Discussion

Post by Cabble » Tue Feb 12, 2019 7:26 pm

@BlueTemplar:

thats what i mean with iron processing. you can make extra steel or extra iron of the bonus ingots you get from processed iron. i always simply use a priority splitter (prio to iron/managnese) and push the remaining iron ingots to steel production.

btw I'm not playing seablock. Actualy i started a normal map with spaceX and biters(with expansion) enabled. "Railworld-ish" resources. It's really fun. I'm at ~18 hours and I will have blue science at ~19:30 I think.

User avatar
BlueTemplar
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 987
Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2018 2:16 pm
Contact:

Re: Development and Discussion

Post by BlueTemplar » Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:24 pm

Railworld-ish are the best ! :)

tbelaire
Burner Inserter
Burner Inserter
Posts: 9
Joined: Tue May 16, 2017 10:10 pm
Contact:

Re: Development and Discussion

Post by tbelaire » Wed Feb 13, 2019 6:42 pm

BlueTemplar wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 6:09 pm

However I don't see so far why I would want to use Ferrous Powder Sorting, the Nickel has been more of a waste product than anything for now !
(The caveat obviously being that this is Seablock that i'm talking about, so it's almost offtopic here...)
Getting nickel and cobalt lets you use a better steel recipe.

And then you also want nickel + steel and cobalt + steel for the cobalt steel and nickitol so it's nice to have those right there.

User avatar
Arch666Angel
Smart Inserter
Smart Inserter
Posts: 1590
Joined: Sun Oct 18, 2015 11:52 am
Contact:

Re: Development and Discussion

Post by Arch666Angel » Wed Feb 13, 2019 7:44 pm

All of you still discussing here what's the best way to smelt metals and everyone having a different opinions tells me that I at least got that one right :lol:

Post Reply

Return to “Angels Mods”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users