Development and Discussion

[Exasperation]

the 2 iron -> 1 steel is strictly from bob's mods, due to reducing the cost from 5 to 2 plates. angel's smelting reduces the cost from 5 iron to 4 iron. however, there's still used to steel smelting, just not for making steel plates. for example, cobalt steel. in order to make cobalt steel, you need steel ingots. otherwise, if you need steel plates and you're using bob's mods (which it looks like you are), it's more resource efficient to just smelt iron into steel in a regular furnace.

More specifically, Bob's MCI has a "cheaper steel" option (selected by default) which makes this change. If you don't have MCI, or you do but deselect the "cheaper steel" option, it is more iron efficient to do 4 iron ingots -> 1 steel ingot than 5 iron plates -> 1 steel plate. There is a conditional that checks for the option and makes an adjustment if it's present and selected (changing the iron ingot -> steel ingot ratio from 4:1 to 3:1), but it's not enough to keep up with the change in the iron plate -> steel plate ratio (the ingot ratio would need to be 8:5 with cheaper steel selected to be the same productivity advantage relative to the regular furnace recipe).

[Airat9000]

Sounds like you have something like the smelting extended mod in there, which was made before I did add the bobs alloys and is probably not up to date to work with the current version and/or isnt needed anymore.

hello man! idea!

Smelting mod you replace standart in in 2 mod smelting (addon)

So that it is impossible to produce in furnaces, but to produce them only in blast furnaces and in furnaces for a casting machine in realism)
screen

2017-08-15_15-19-39.png (1.93 MiB) Viewed 8862 times

screen 2

2017-08-15_15-18-49.png (1.94 MiB) Viewed 8862 times

[jodokus31]

I actually like it, that not everything can be barreled. If we've wanted it easy, we wouldn't play angels mods, would we?
But, just my opinion...

but there's a difference between making something harder and making something cumbersome. most of the recent changes also started pushing for a need for logistics, either via trains or bots, as intermediaries are useful elsewhere. however, the fact that you can't really move melted materials around means you must tie them to their end destination. this, I feel, is a step backwards, and runs at odds to the changes to casting recipes.

in factorio 14, iron ingots were used for iron and steel, that's it. molten iron only serves to be made into iron plates. steel into steel plates. cobalt into cobalt steel, etc. there was only 1 path, so it made sense to have entire sections designed for an entire process. you input iron ore one side, get iron plates out the iron. but now that iron can actually be used in several other recipes, with multiple paths, it doesn't make sense to build designs like this, as sometimes you'll want to put iron ore in and get magnesium out in the end (which atm doesn't actually have a use other than boosting iron production, but it'll probably have a use soon, no doubt). so since you don't always want your ingots to go directly to plates, it's a better idea to store the ignots and then ship them to where they're needed. but you can't do this with melted materials. however, melted materials, like the rest of the intermediaries, now have multiple uses, and some recipes require multiple liquids, yet can't be shipped around.

Currently, I use the ingots as delivery items for different purposes, which are melted and casted in one step. For me, its no problem to melt the same type of ingots in different locations. Maybe I miss something, since I'm not using strand casting recipes, yet.
No doubt, it would be more flexible, if melted materials could be moved better.

[Wildejackson]

but there's a difference between making something harder and making something cumbersome. most of the recent changes also started pushing for a need for logistics, either via trains or bots, as intermediaries are useful elsewhere. however, the fact that you can't really move melted materials around means you must tie them to their end destination. this, I feel, is a step backwards, and runs at odds to the changes to casting recipes.

I disagree. In real life (which angel is trying to model against where possible) we use ingots when we need molten metals. I see little need to be able to store / ship molten metals when you can just do the same for ingots, which convert to said molten metal at 1-1. I get you want to alloy the metals (say for extra tin) before alloying again, but realistically it doesn't even make that much sense, so balance-wise it should be a challenge to do. Really the only benifit to shipping around metal liquids is to make it easier to exploit the advanced smelting recipies, which angel designed to be a challenge.

[Wildejackson]

Angel, is it possible to get a early game petrochem rubber recipe? The petrochem resin is quite lategame, requiring formaldehyde. Prehaps using a silicone-based rubber recipe?

[ridesdragons]

I disagree. In real life (which angel is trying to model against where possible) we use ingots when we need molten metals. I see little need to be able to store / ship molten metals when you can just do the same for ingots, which convert to said molten metal at 1-1. I get you want to alloy the metals (say for extra tin) before alloying again, but realistically it doesn't even make that much sense, so balance-wise it should be a challenge to do. Really the only benifit to shipping around metal liquids is to make it easier to exploit the advanced smelting recipies, which angel designed to be a challenge.

except there is no "exploiting" his method of smelting. his method is, in fact, the only way to obtain many of the materials. you used to be able to get brass through the metal mixer. now you must use metallurgy. same with every other alloy he's added. how would shipping molten metals around be considered "exploiting" anyway? as far as I know, making tinned copper coils isn't even more efficient than making copper and tin plates, then making copper wires, then coating it in tin. even if it were, however, it would still be a challenge to be able to make the coils even with shipping the metals around. it isn't any less challenging to allow shipping of molten metals, only less cumbersome, as you can put some space between the induction furnaces that're producing copper and tin. you still have to produce enough of each to be able to be unloaded and design a way of getting it over there. in fact, if I really wanted to, I could ship the molten metals via train, so being unable to ship it by barrel when I can already ship it by really-big-barrel-on-wheels is strange.

currently, there are only a few cases where molten metals can be mixed with each other for something, namely glass and wire coils. allowing shipping would make these just as difficult as before to accomplish, but much less cumbersome to do so, promoting players to actually use it instead of just using assemblers to turn the plates into wires (except for in the case of glass, where the only real use for glass plates are solar panels and laser rifle ammo, so the advanced recipes already have little reason to actually be used, especially since fiberglass panels can be made with fiberglass cables and resin). the processes that would get the most benefit would actually be the non-multi-molten-metal ones, as it allows me to make a refinery zone that does nothing except for melt copper ingots, and then make another area that does nothing but turns that molten metal into metal plates. I can scale these areas to be as large as I need them. something I can't really do if I have to tie the melting process to the casting process. if it were one process, where molten copper has no place to go but to be turned into copper plates, then I wouldn't mind, but it is not one process, and plates are not the only destination. this is why I argue that, rather, it doesn't make sense to not allow barreling on molten metals, and to instead be forced to use ingots to transfer around for the different casting processes (it already has to transfer around for the different melting processes, for which ingots are the primary intermediary, the same which cannot be said for casting, where molten materials are the primary intermediary). the thing to remember is that many of the methods in angels are not forced methods, they're just different paths to the same goal, and some are more efficient resource-wise than others. barreling on molten materials only allows an additional path.

[Wildejackson]

I should have been more clear, when I said alloying, I mean "advanced smelting" (ie sillicon and iron to make more steel).

And by exploiting I mean you could break down the process of making alloys (ie brass) with the advanced smelting recipes into much easier to manage chunks, which I feel goes against the logistical trade-off vs yeald of advanced smelting.

I honestly feel that angels current system fits very well into the way factorio works. Barrels in the base game are really only for logistics bots (now that we have fluid wagons), and it seems really silly to have bots carrying round molten metal

[jodokus31]

... his method is, in fact, the only way to obtain many of the materials. you used to be able to get brass through the metal mixer. now you must use metallurgy. ...

Do you use the "3rdparty" "Angel's Smelting Patch", which says: "Make Angel's smelting recipes the best way by disabling direct ore smelting in furnaces and forcing you to go in the advanced metallurgy path."
Or there are another "3rdparty" mods around, which may not be updated...
Nevertheless, Im currently produce copper and tinned wire the old way...

currently, there are only a few cases where molten metals can be mixed with each other for something, namely glass and wire coils.

Glass uses molten tin, and returns tin ingots. The is no consumption of tin, just a catalyst which goes in a loop.

I think, your problem is, that the processes are not robotizable per modul, since bots cannot carry liquids.

@Wildejackson: I think barrels are really useful for train transport and you dont want to mess around with fluid mechanics.

[Arch666Angel]

Refining --0.7.26
-fixed an error with curshed smelting recipes

Petrochem --0.5.14
-increased power consumption for the electric boiler
-decreased pollution production for the electric boiler

Smelting --0.3.11
-changed coolant cycle: removed one intermediate recipe (will break current setups)
-shifted metal mixing furnace to electronics tech
-hide extra solder item if not used

Logistics ---0.2.1
-changed cargo bots mk1 speed to 0.02 (doubled)
-changed cargo bots mk1 max cargo to 100
-added cargo bots mk2 (speed 0.04, max cargo 200)

Some random bits and bobs

[gosensgo86]

Does that mean farms are coming? Because I can't find that building anywhere.

That looks like fun.

[Dalewyn]

Petrochem --0.5.14
-increased power consumption for the electric boiler
-decreased pollution production for the electric boiler

I am going to presume that 120 pollution on the electric boiler is not intended. :V

[Arch666Angel]

Petrochem --0.5.14
-increased power consumption for the electric boiler
-decreased pollution production for the electric boiler

I am going to presume that 120 pollution on the electric boiler is not intended. :V

Yep small typo, fixing it.

[aklesey1]

Stack size for crushed stone was increased, right?

[Sedar]

Refining --0.7.26
-fixed an error with curshed smelting recipes

Petrochem --0.5.14
-increased power consumption for the electric boiler
-decreased pollution production for the electric boiler

Smelting --0.3.11
-changed coolant cycle: removed one intermediate recipe (will break current setups)
-shifted metal mixing furnace to electronics tech
-hide extra solder item if not used

Logistics ---0.2.1
-changed cargo bots mk1 speed to 0.02 (doubled)
-changed cargo bots mk1 max cargo to 100
-added cargo bots mk2 (speed 0.04, max cargo 200)

Some random bits and bobs

Great update!

Electric Boilers is very useful now. Green Party approves. Coolant line is also more useful now.


Domestication of bitters? Looking forward for new interesting stuff.

[ridesdragons]

Do you use the "3rdparty" "Angel's Smelting Patch", which says: "Make Angel's smelting recipes the best way by disabling direct ore smelting in furnaces and forcing you to go in the advanced metallurgy path."
Or there are another "3rdparty" mods around, which may not be updated...
Nevertheless, Im currently produce copper and tinned wire the old way...

currently, there are only a few cases where molten metals can be mixed with each other for something, namely glass and wire coils.

Glass uses molten tin, and returns tin ingots. The is no consumption of tin, just a catalyst which goes in a loop.

I think, your problem is, that the processes are not robotizable per modul, since bots cannot carry liquids.

@Wildejackson: I think barrels are really useful for train transport and you dont want to mess around with fluid mechanics.

no, I'm not using the angel's smelting patch. I know what you're referring to. with that patch, you can't smelt copper ore in a furnace to get copper plates. I can do that, still. I meant specifically the advanced metals. namely, bronze, brass, invar, etc. you used to be able to smelt these in a mixing furnace using the plates, but now the only way to get them is via metallurgy with the ingot version of said plates.

I am utilizing the cargo bots from the angel's logistics addon, as well as factorissimo, though I'm not using that to use less space, but rather to force modularization on myself (each building does one and only one task). this is the only task in angel's that I can't modularize unless I wish to modularize with trains. even if I wanted to use trains, though, barrels are very useful in most cases. however, the best use of trains is to get resources to a faraway location fast, not to deliver resources to a nearby factory. robots are best used close-mid range, with trains being long-range.

it is helpful to know that while it's a catalyst, that there's no resource waste, though I do find that odd. I was under the impression that the lead/tin you got back was less than the lead/tin you put in, and so while you can rotate those, you would still need an in-flow. even so, my biggest point with mixed-molten casting was actually with wires, since glass plates don't seem to have many uses other than making solar panels (fiberglass can be made with fiberglass cables, which avoids glass plates altogether), and my main point altogether was that molten materials are no longer one-trick ponies, and rather than making a melting->casting station for each process, I'd rather make a melting station, and then make a casting station for each potential output. I brought up that there were only a few cases in which there's multi-molten casting to make a point that allowing barreling of molten materials is not just for the few cases where there's multiple metals needed for one job, but also for the many cases where there's many jobs that need one metal

also, cool, farm stuff. are you planning on adding hunger though? or maybe, biter taming?

[jodokus31]

Ok, I see you point, why you want the molten metals being barreled. I think, its up to Angel to decide. (Or you find a mod which allows it)
For myself, I dont think, I will need it. But I'm not doing the wire smelting atm (mainly because I want to proceed elsewhere)
But I also see the need to seperate processes in logistic modules: crushing, floatation, leaching, ..., sorting, smelting, and then melting+casting in one step

Regarding the alloy smelting, I didnt realize, that the metal mixing furnace is not possible anymore. I have brass, gunmetal and invar now, and they don't need crude molten metals, but the induction furnace does the mixing with ingots and then casting the molten alloy directly.

If you want to go in the direction having train stops for each modul, I would highly recommend the "Logistic Train Network" mod. Its a bit hard to get into it, but once you have it setup, its really comforable to request and provide stuff from/to the network. And you can expand really well with the train-tracks. For the stations itself you can use bots in seperate networks or just belts. I dont know, if factorissimo suits that well, because the stations and tracks itself tend to take much more space than a single factorissimo building.

[Light]

Petrochem --0.5.14
-increased power consumption for the electric boiler
-decreased pollution production for the electric boiler

I still feel the original resin recipe should be left in tact. Nerfing one recipe to make yours look better is a sign that it's poorly designed and needs revision, it should look appealing regardless of what's available if done right.

So no further word on the resin issue? Fixing the recipe to how it should be, while maybe investigating a new liquid resin recipe or method for making phenolic boards easier to create?

I'm disappointed this was glanced over without further reply and basically ignored as shown by this patch note. This does need to be addressed.

[ridesdragons]

So no further word on the resin issue? Fixing the recipe to how it should be, while maybe investigating a new liquid resin recipe or method for making phenolic boards easier to create?

I'm disappointed this was glanced over without further reply and basically ignored as shown by this patch note. This does need to be addressed.

the fact that he didn't touch on it in the patch notes doesn't mean he's ignored you. angel hasn't addressed several of the topics brought up right now (including mine, only commenting on the cobalt steel "advanced recipes" that came from an addon mod). making an argument for a certain change only guarantees he'll at least think about it, not that he'll include it in the next patch. if he does make a change, it'll be a few patches down the road. for one thing, if he agrees, he'd have to come up with a new recipe that solves your issue, which takes time, especially if he's busy with other things. which, judging by the patch notes you quoted, he's busy with other things.

[Arch666Angel]

Even if I stopped replying to every comment, I read everything that is posted here, the subforum, pinged in discord or even on reddit. So yes I have read your comment, I'm considering a change but I have no brilliant idea at the moment how to handle it. It might be part of bio processing though, instead of just turning wood into resin, you may have to find, grow and sap certain trees for an initial production of resin. The problem is probably also dependent on playstyle since most of the time I'm drowning in wood, even in a desert start.
Later on you are supposed to use the chemical route through petrochem. The update for bio processing will take quiet a while because of all the additions and changes I'm making, so dont expect a bug free version next week.

[foodfactorio]

well done on a 100 pages here