valneq wrote: ↑Sat Aug 22, 2020 2:38 pm
Voidedfactory wrote: ↑Sat Aug 22, 2020 4:59 am
Why the hell are certain prerequisites not properly connected?
There are several reasons for that. Primarily because Angel's mods don't follow the vanilla recipe design philosophy.
[snip]
Additionally, as kingarthur already said: Angel's mods are not one mod that you can optimize until everyone is happy. They are a combinations of mods that do different things in different combinations. In many cases, compatibilities with external mods need to be taken into account, and different mod settings (overhauls) within Angel's mods change up some production chains entirely. The tech tree sometimes just makes compromises so as to not always being a completely different beast. It does not always change up the dependencies between different technologies. This may or may not be a good way of dealing with dependencies.
But no matter how you try to do it, a tree is never able to represent options between vastly different production chains.
None of the things I said imply that I am happy with the tech tree. There are issues that can and should be addressed at some point. But I hope that you understand that things are not as simple as they are in vanilla.
Currently, Angel's mods are heavily being worked on (component mode and tech overhaul) – and once these are more or less done, the tech tree might get some more love to iron out some of the issues that can be addressed. Fluid handling for barrels being necessary for cliff explosives for example
Well, I do get that, though I wasn't at all aware Angel's was apparently originally solely a Bob's Mods companion or something, according to arthur. I suppose that is my bad for assuming "base" mods/modpacks are built to be stand-alone, if that makes any sense, with additional add-ons that enhance the experience and/or allow compatibility but can be removed without FUBAR-ing the main mod. This is the first time I've ever actually used Angel's mods at all, so no need to get that upset over it.
But, to cut down your post a bit to not extend the page too much, I get the whole multliple ways to an item approach, and I do like it. It just feels personally frustrating to me that there's no sense of connectivity between certain research options, at least without the overhaul options included (I'll touch on that in a bit). It is something I think I can get past to play the mod(s), sure, but it just kinda gives me a mental twitch whenever it happens for something.
As far as managing that with all the compatibilities, dependencies, etc., within the tech tree itself...yeah, I get that it'd probably be impossible to visualize, though I wish it wouldn't be. I'd think it's still be possible within just Angel's mods themselves, though, even if it's just a mention in the tech description along the lines of "required for X, Y, and Z techs/buildings". Maybe not everything since nutrient paste, for instance, is used for basically every bio-farming process to create the actual products (be it trees, animals or aliens), but most things. I don't know. I'm not a mod-maker or all that versed in stuff like that, so it's entirely possible I'm suggesting something impossible and/or impractical to actually implement. But I'd still like to believe there's some way to at least indirectly show newcomers (or the confused) that certain techs, while not having directly connecting paths, still indicate the unlocked ingredients are required. An example I've found now is that clay bricks, required for most lvl 2 buildings, has no connection to them tech-tree-wise even though I haven't found any
other means to craft clay bricks in a non-overhauled state of the mods. Could just sound extra salty, but that doesn't sound like a sulfur problem, but a legit "this needs to be a prerequisite" problem.
However, I will not budge on the sulfur processsing 1 and 2 switch. That particular recipe for making sulfur makes
no sense being where it is unless Sulfur processing 1 is required to make sulfur
at all. From any recipe. And as far as I can tell that doesn't seem to be the case?
As for the overhaul options, I've taken a look at them, and with some of them on (especially the components overhaul--the first option in mod settings) I now understand why some of the techs in the non-overhaul state essentially lead nowhere (e.g paper has fuck-all usage without any overhauls enabled, and the bio-stuff are basically worthless. BUt hoo boy, that is a LOT of complexity. HOnestly, a bit too much for me to wrap my mind around right now if I try to take it all end. Granted, I will likely be playing a scenario with all of this in mind plus a bunch of other mods at a later date, but I don't think I'm going to go that deep for it juuuuust yet. That one's going to be, like, a super-duper long term "How much can I handle before I give up" kind of deal. (THat's less a knock against the mod, more against my ability to comprehend and compartmentalize and handle that level of stuff to manage.)
Right now, I'm doing a non-overhaul version--well, more like "re-doing" since I didn't realize leaving the biter sliders at 100% disabled them entirely when I first started. Still, I got some basic BP's made up for some stuff, so I can just transfer that over to the "actual" scenario and beat the game that way. Not sure how high a priority it is for Angel or the rest of you, but it would be really cool if, eventually, the techs-to-nowhere (like paper) have uses even in the most basic form of it. I'm aware this may be rebutted with the "this is not a one version fits all kind of mod", but I'd think that if you want to make it work as a completely standalone mod, it should at least be considered.
(Yes, I'm a few weeks late in replying, sue me.)
(And to be clear, I'm not saying this in dislike of the mod. While this is my first time playing with it in my own games, I've seen it played by a few other youtubers (
Arumba and Quill18, not sure if you're aware of either of them), though IIRC none of them ever mentioned how it was never really made to be played by itself. I like what it has (watching the metallurgy process, while at times hard to take in, was very fun to figure out and watch happen from mined jivolite to iron plates from the coil sheets, to a surprisingly high degree) and appreciate the complexity it brings. I just feel like these are things that could make it better, even if they're off the mark.)