dragon's teeth no longer working

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fderty
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dragon's teeth no longer working

Post by fderty »

Hi, today I tested the dragon's teeth defense against small biters (evolution level 19%)
To my shock :shock:, the biters attacked the dragon's teeth instead of passing through while being slowed down as they used to.
Even with 2 tiles between each wall section they kept doing it.
Have you observed it ?
What do ? :?

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Re: dragon's teeth no longer working

Post by MassiveDynamic »

Flamethrowers

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Re: dragon's teeth no longer working

Post by fderty »

MassiveDynamic wrote:
Sat Nov 21, 2020 4:50 pm
Flamethrowers
How does the flamethrower allow to exploit the AI ? :?
It seems there is no way to exploit the AI as of now :?

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Re: dragon's teeth no longer working

Post by jodokus31 »

Are your turrets near enough to attrack the biters?
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Re: dragon's teeth no longer working

Post by MassiveDynamic »

Flamethrowers render the AI as goo.

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Re: dragon's teeth no longer working

Post by fderty »

MassiveDynamic wrote:
Sat Nov 21, 2020 11:09 pm
Flamethrowers render the AI as goo.
Wut ? :?
jodokus31 wrote:
Sat Nov 21, 2020 9:25 pm
Are your turrets near enough to attrack the biters?
Yes they are in firing range.

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Re: dragon's teeth no longer working

Post by Nosferatu »

A year ago they changed biters so they don't collide with each other when attacking.
I thought that change made dragon's teeth ineffective.
But that doesn't explain why they should ignore the turrets and attack the wall.
Can you post a screenshot?

See https://factorio.com/blog/post/fff-316 - Search for "Non-colliding Biters"

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Re: dragon's teeth no longer working

Post by fderty »

Nosferatu wrote:
Sun Nov 22, 2020 11:21 am
A year ago they changed biters so they don't collide with each other when attacking.
I thought that change made dragon's teeth ineffective.
But that doesn't explain why they should ignore the turrets and attack the wall.
Can you post a screenshot?

See https://factorio.com/blog/post/fff-316 - Search for "Non-colliding Biters"
That's not related to collision, biters choose to destroy everything on their path even if they can avoid it.
Also they don't actually ignore the turrets, after a few moments attacking the dragon's teeth, some of the biters go past and attack whatever is there.
Here is a picture :
mean_biters.jpg
mean_biters.jpg (2.92 MiB) Viewed 784 times

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Re: dragon's teeth no longer working

Post by jodokus31 »

I remember that biters are sometimes more aggressive and attack the nearest things.
Btw: interesting dragon teeth design. I used them mostly to distract bigger biters together with a solid wall
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Re: dragon's teeth no longer working

Post by MassiveDynamic »

Wait, is that what you’re calling dragons teeth? That looks more like a toothless dragon. I’ve never seen that work.
Dragon teeth are set up like this
xoxoxoxoxox
oxoxoxoxoxo
xoxoxoxoxox

So the biters actually have to path around the walls. These type of dragon teeth actually work.

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Re: dragon's teeth no longer working

Post by fderty »

jodokus31 wrote:
Sun Nov 22, 2020 2:01 pm
Btw: interesting dragon teeth design. I used them mostly to distract bigger biters together with a solid wall
If the biters attack everything in their path there is no longer a point in using dragon's teeth.
A real wall will slow them down just as much and you are guaranteed they don't nip at your factory until the wall is compromised.
MassiveDynamic wrote:
Sun Nov 22, 2020 2:09 pm
Wait, is that what you’re calling dragons teeth? That looks more like a toothless dragon. I’ve never seen that work.
Dragon teeth are set up like this
xoxoxoxoxox
oxoxoxoxoxo
xoxoxoxoxox

So the biters actually have to path around the walls. These type of dragon teeth actually work.
I know what dragon's teeth are.
But if the biters attack my design they will also with greater reason attack the classic dragon's teeth design that is harder to go through from a pathfinding point of view.

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Re: dragon's teeth no longer working

Post by Serenity »

The point is that moving around them takes them more time so your turrets get more shots

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Re: dragon's teeth no longer working

Post by fderty »

Serenity wrote:
Sun Nov 22, 2020 4:30 pm
The point is that moving around them takes them more time so your turrets get more shots
My point is they are no longer moving around them.
Did you read the fucking post ? :?

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Re: dragon's teeth no longer working

Post by AmericanPatriot »

The biters attack the wall because that is what they came to do. It looks like the pollution from your boilers is making them angry, so they path to the boilers. When they reach the pollution source, they attack the nearest thing, whether it be wall, belt, boiler, whatever. If the turret shoots them, they get distracted and go attack it instead.

In order for your dragons teeth to work, move them away from the boilers so the biters don’t decide they have reached their destination before getting shot.
Sarcasm and insults are generally neither helpful nor appreciated. :D

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Re: dragon's teeth no longer working

Post by theolderbeholder »

fderty wrote:
Sun Nov 22, 2020 5:21 pm
My point is they are no longer moving around them.
Did you modify the game? I just tested, mine still work as expected.

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Re: dragon's teeth no longer working

Post by jodokus31 »

fderty wrote:
Sun Nov 22, 2020 5:21 pm
Serenity wrote:
Sun Nov 22, 2020 4:30 pm
The point is that moving around them takes them more time so your turrets get more shots
My point is they are no longer moving around them.
Did you read the fucking post ? :?
Unexpected harshness. Im not sure if i want to offer my help next time.
If You find typos, my mobile is an uncontrollable beast

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Re: dragon's teeth no longer working

Post by fderty »

theolderbeholder wrote:
Sun Nov 22, 2020 6:42 pm
fderty wrote:
Sun Nov 22, 2020 5:21 pm
My point is they are no longer moving around them.
Did you modify the game? I just tested, mine still work as expected.
No
AmericanPatriot wrote:
Sun Nov 22, 2020 6:17 pm
The biters attack the wall because that is what they came to do. It looks like the pollution from your boilers is making them angry, so they path to the boilers. When they reach the pollution source, they attack the nearest thing, whether it be wall, belt, boiler, whatever. If the turret shoots them, they get distracted and go attack it instead.

In order for your dragons teeth to work, move them away from the boilers so the biters don’t decide they have reached their destination before getting shot.
I tested this design :
mean_biters2.jpg
mean_biters2.jpg (3.68 MiB) Viewed 465 times
As you can see the damaged walls are quite far from the pollution source, yet the biters attack it.
They are much less aggressive though.

jodokus31 wrote:
Sun Nov 22, 2020 9:06 pm
fderty wrote:
Sun Nov 22, 2020 5:21 pm
Serenity wrote:
Sun Nov 22, 2020 4:30 pm
The point is that moving around them takes them more time so your turrets get more shots
My point is they are no longer moving around them.
Did you read the fucking post ? :?
Unexpected harshness. Im not sure if i want to offer my help next time.
It's quite annoying when someone answer you while ignoring what you said (even if I was in part wrong when I said they were no longer moving around the walls) :?

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Re: dragon's teeth no longer working

Post by AmericanPatriot »

fderty wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 12:23 pm
I tested this design : mean_biters2.jpg
As you can see the damaged walls are quite far from the pollution source, yet the biters attack it.
They are much less aggressive though.
They will always attack the walls sometimes if they think they are stuck (for example in a big maze) or think it would be faster to go through the wall (they have already spent a long time trying to go around without getting anywhere). Moving it away from the pollution source should just make sure their goal isn't to attack walls.
Sarcasm and insults are generally neither helpful nor appreciated. :D

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Re: dragon's teeth no longer working

Post by jodokus31 »

fderty wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 12:23 pm

It's quite annoying when someone answer you while ignoring what you said (even if I was in part wrong when I said they were no longer moving around the walls) :?
Im pretty sure @serenity just wanted to help. I wouldnt want to be treated like that if want to help even if im completely beside the point.

The biter behaviour is a bit unpredictable/confusing. Sometimes the biters group arrives in my base and then start to eat undefended belts. Sometimes they run directly to the turrets like they should.
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Re: dragon's teeth no longer working

Post by Zanthra »

Since 0.13 Biters will attack stuff that prevents them from pathing where they want to go, regardless of whether it is considered hostile or not (peaceful biters may attack objects built close to their bases). They will attempt to path around the object for a little while, but there is a limit to their patience before they start attacking it. Not even rocks or trees are safe from biters. This is not a new mechanic however.

PS: This if stuck attack nearby object is not even new to 0.13, but the limits of the biter patience was drastically reduced in 0.13.

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