how do I switch between accumulator and steam/coal based machine?

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JapaneseMom
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Re: how do I switch between accumulator and steam/coal based machine?

Post by JapaneseMom »

TheRangerLOL wrote:
Wed Oct 07, 2020 11:23 am
JapaneseMom wrote:
Tue Oct 06, 2020 4:00 pm
is this really it? or I'm missing something? I'm trying to like satisfy my electricity productions, so I can switch to solar now instead of expanding my steam and boiler
Alright, i'm not sure exactly what you don't get, but this is how i did it. I hope this can shed you a little light. Electronic circuits can be very difficult if you don't get the gist of them. The important thing to remember is the order that power systems will produce electricity. I'm working with 32 bit so i can't speak for nuclear, but it will produce first with Solar, then Steam, and lastly, Accumulators, meaning that even at night steam will produce electricity first, even if your accumulators are at maximum.


SteamPowerCutoff.png

My steam power comes in down the Yellow arrow into a power switch (make sure it's on the correct side). The power switch is what connects/disconnects things. Blue is my accumulator, I have it set to putting out signal P, but default signal is A (the actual accumulator i use is somewhere else in my base attached to this system, i set up this accumulator for demonstration). The accumulator signal goes into the input of the decider so that you can set whatever number (threshold) you want the steam engines to start working again. The output of the decider goes to the input of the power switch and that's what sets your threshold. (Ignore the other decider and light, those are for personal use and are completely unnecessary.)

I suppose it's important to note that the accumulator's signal given off is a percentage of full power, not a straight gigawatt signal.

As for programming things, it's fairly simple. Your decider is reading your % of power from the accumulator. So, if your Accumulator output (A or P, in this case) is < than....lets just say 10, then you will output 1 on signal Green (or whatever color you feel like) to the input of the power switch. Then set the power switch to activate if signal Green is > than 0. If you did everything correctly, then your steam engines should be turning on when your accumulator's power is less than 10%, or whatever threshold you decided to set your decider to.

I hope i explained that correctly, and i hope it helps.
so, is this correct like this?
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yes, its impractical because I just realized this wire have limits. I thought its range is infinite and will just consume more wire the longer it is
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so is this connection correct? sorry, your image is too crowded, so I'm not sure if you put electric pole between switcher or none at all (Blue: Accumulator, Orange: Boiler)
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is this coding correct for the accumulator output?
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this one is for the boiler
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Lastly, the power switch itself
Screenshot (1270).png
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Re: how do I switch between accumulator and steam/coal based machine?

Post by astroshak »

The simplest way is to have all of your Offshore Pumps (the ones feeding your boilers) wired to one Accumulator.

Have the Offshore Pumps set to turn on when A < 20, or w/e your desired set point may be.

Accumulator charge higher than 20%, pumps don’t push water to Boilers, and you don’t have any steam power being generated (beyond what steam was previously generated but not yet used up). Accumulators discharge enough to get down to 20%, and the pumps start feeding boilers so you start to generate steam and thus, steam power.

I’m not entirely sure, however, that its worthwhile doing this. I’d rather just, once I go nuclear or solar, separate the boilers/steam generators from the rest of the electrical network, have them power a bunch of radars only, and use them to burn off whatever extra coal and wood my construction efforts clear from the map.

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Re: how do I switch between accumulator and steam/coal based machine?

Post by JapaneseMom »

astroshak wrote:
Sat Oct 10, 2020 9:50 pm
The simplest way is to have all of your Offshore Pumps (the ones feeding your boilers) wired to one Accumulator.

Have the Offshore Pumps set to turn on when A < 20, or w/e your desired set point may be.
ehhhh like this? then how are you going to change the signal?
Screenshot (1273).png
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Re: how do I switch between accumulator and steam/coal based machine?

Post by Serenity »

Just put down an extra accumulator next to the power plant. There is no need to run circuit wire long distance for this.

And whatever you want to do with the boiler wire there is completely pointless. There is no signal there
astroshak wrote:
Sat Oct 10, 2020 9:50 pm
I’m not entirely sure, however, that its worthwhile doing this.
You don't need it for nuclear, but I like having a back up power plant with solar. It helps with sudden power spikes. And looking at the power graph lets me know when I need to expand solar. Like when it turns on many days in a row.

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Re: how do I switch between accumulator and steam/coal based machine?

Post by Theikkru »

JapaneseMom wrote:
Sat Oct 10, 2020 9:39 pm
[...]
so is this connection correct? sorry, your image is too crowded, so I'm not sure if you put electric pole between switcher or none at all (Blue: Accumulator, Orange: Boiler)
Screenshot (1267)_LI.jpg
[...]
The connection from the accumulators is fine, but the combinator logic needs fixing. Load the attached demo save file below and see how it works:
bakdemo.png
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Re: how do I switch between accumulator and steam/coal based machine?

Post by astroshak »

JapaneseMom wrote:
Sat Oct 10, 2020 9:56 pm
astroshak wrote:
Sat Oct 10, 2020 9:50 pm
The simplest way is to have all of your Offshore Pumps (the ones feeding your boilers) wired to one Accumulator.

Have the Offshore Pumps set to turn on when A < 20, or w/e your desired set point may be.
ehhhh like this? then how are you going to change the signal?
Screenshot (1273).png
Why would you need to change the signal? You want it to read A, the default Accumulator Charge %. Then have the pumps turn on if it gets too low.

Use (google it if you need to) a SR Latch to set a separate point for steam power to shut off if desired.

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Re: how do I switch between accumulator and steam/coal based machine?

Post by TheRangerLOL »

I know other people have answered but i'll explain mine a little further in case you were still interested in doing it like this.

JapaneseMom wrote:
Sat Oct 10, 2020 9:39 pm

so, is this correct like this?
Screenshot (1265).png
So, I almost feel bad that I laughed a little when i saw this picture.
You CAN connect the large power poles to each other with the red wire. Sometimes you have to move around to get them connected, but as long as the copper cable can connect, then the red and green wires can as well.

BigPowerWires.png
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sorry, your image is too crowded,


Yeah I'm sorry about that too. I'd post a blueprint if I could but, I work with what i got.

I think It might be a little simpler if I show you what I did. Also, you don't need one on the boiler at all. Btw, my version of factorio doesn't allow you to connect wires to the boiler. What kinda stuff does it let you do when you do connect?
SteamPowerCutoffProgramming.png
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I know it's a little busy with that extra combinator there. P=A, and A goes directly into the combinator input, then outputs into the power switch. Like i said, don't worry about the other stuff I'm doing there. What it is, is a sensor that tells me when steam power is on, and lights up the lamp with green. I've got them placed all over the map so I know when that's happened.
Lastly, the power switch itself
The one big thing you're missing is the power cables here.
BoilerPower.png
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The important thing to do here, is you need to isolate the boilers from the main power grid. You can take down wires using Shift+Click on a power pole, and then use copper wires to manually re-attach the power cables where you need them.
JapaneseMom wrote:
Sat Oct 10, 2020 9:56 pm
ehhhh like this? then how are you going to change the signal?
Serenity wrote:
Sat Oct 10, 2020 9:59 pm
Just put down an extra accumulator next to the power plant. There is no need to run circuit wire long distance for this.
The concept here is that all your accumulators will have the same power level, and output the same signal. You just need to make sure that one accumulator is on the main power grid, and not the boiler power grid.
Base1Power.png
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My main accumulator field is farther to the north, but the actual accumulator for signal P (A) is sitting down there next to the water. And then the boilers are completely disconnected from the rest of the power grid until the power switch goes on.

Idk, I feel like that was an imperfect explanation so let us know if anything is still giving you trouble.
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Re: how do I switch between accumulator and steam/coal based machine?

Post by TheRangerLOL »

Yoyobuae wrote:
Wed Oct 07, 2020 7:52 pm
The solution becomes as simple as a single circuit wire:
If you wanted to use the Offshore Pump method, then it's like this...

Accumulator-OffshorePump.png
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Just make sure the Accumulator you're using for the signal isn't on the boiler's power grid.
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Re: how do I switch between accumulator and steam/coal based machine?

Post by Theikkru »

TheRangerLOL wrote:
Sun Oct 11, 2020 1:40 am
[...]Btw, my version of factorio doesn't allow you to connect wires to the boiler. What kinda stuff does it let you do when you do connect?
[...]
Boilers are still unwireable in vanilla 1.0. But jeez, what version are you using!? That boiler design is ancient!

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Re: how do I switch between accumulator and steam/coal based machine?

Post by TheRangerLOL »

Theikkru wrote:
Sun Oct 11, 2020 2:34 am
TheRangerLOL wrote:
Sun Oct 11, 2020 1:40 am
[...]Btw, my version of factorio doesn't allow you to connect wires to the boiler. What kinda stuff does it let you do when you do connect?
[...]
Boilers are still unwireable in vanilla 1.0. But jeez, what version are you using!? That boiler design is ancient!
32-bit, so 14.23 or something.
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Re: how do I switch between accumulator and steam/coal based machine?

Post by JapaneseMom »

TheRangerLOL wrote:
Sun Oct 11, 2020 1:40 am
So, I almost feel bad that I laughed a little when i saw this picture.
You CAN connect the large power poles to each other with the red wire. Sometimes you have to move around to get them connected, but as long as the copper cable can connect, then the red and green wires can as well.


BigPowerWires.png
ahhh bruhh, yeah you can connect the red wire. wtf, last night it wont let me connect it says cable wont reach
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TheRangerLOL wrote:
Sun Oct 11, 2020 1:40 am
Yeah I'm sorry about that too. I'd post a blueprint if I could but, I work with what i got.

I think It might be a little simpler if I show you what I did. Also, you don't need one on the boiler at all. Btw, my version of factorio doesn't allow you to connect wires to the boiler. What kinda stuff does it let you do when you do connect?

SteamPowerCutoffProgramming.png
I dont understand what you mean. connecting red wire to boiler or something?
TheRangerLOL wrote:
Sun Oct 11, 2020 1:40 am
The one big thing you're missing is the power cables here.

BoilerPower.png

The important thing to do here, is you need to isolate the boilers from the main power grid. You can take down wires using Shift+Click on a power pole, and then use copper wires to manually re-attach the power cables where you need them.
power cables? I dont understand what you mean. there are only green and red wire here
also isnt main power grid basically any of the boiler? I mean I connect everything in right order anyway, so it should fill up anything that is currently empty right?
JapaneseMom wrote:
Sat Oct 10, 2020 9:56 pm
ehhhh like this? then how are you going to change the signal?
Serenity wrote:
Sat Oct 10, 2020 9:59 pm
Just put down an extra accumulator next to the power plant. There is no need to run circuit wire long distance for this.
TheRangerLOL wrote:
Sun Oct 11, 2020 1:40 am
The concept here is that all your accumulators will have the same power level, and output the same signal. You just need to make sure that one accumulator is on the main power grid, and not the boiler power grid.

Base1Power.png

My main accumulator field is farther to the north, but the actual accumulator for signal P (A) is sitting down there next to the water. And then the boilers are completely disconnected from the rest of the power grid until the power switch goes on.

Idk, I feel like that was an imperfect explanation so let us know if anything is still giving you trouble.
so, something like this?
damn I know people getting tired of this discussion, but I feel like this is like train discussion all over again. what the game taught you to do and what you want to do is vastly different. and people base and my base is different. I put my accumulator far away in case im going mega base, but people put their accumulator neat their base, so I dont know if distance matters in order to setup this kind of thing or not
Screenshot (1282).png
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Re: how do I switch between accumulator and steam/coal based machine?

Post by Serenity »

Again: All accumulators on the same power network charge at the same time with the same rate. So it does not matter where exactly they are. You can have your solar fields far away and the charge of your one accumulator in your base will be the same. It's not there for its capacity, but just so that you have something to read a signal from

If you use a power switch you just need to make sure you put the accumulator on the main network and not on the power plant side of the switch (where it would be disconnected some of the time)

Of course you can run a circuit wire a long way. Many people put wires along their train tracks just in case. That could easily be used for that. It's just not necessary and in your case a waste of the time you spend on it. This is enough:
Coal Power
That's four full columns of boilers and engines. All running on the same logic

As others said, the SR-latch may not be absolutely necessary, but I've had issues with flickering in the past. The power plant still works fine when it flickers on and off, but it makes the power graph hard to read. It's a mattet of preference. For simplicity - and until you figure out the basics - you can connect the accumulator directly to the pumps or use a power switch.
The accumulator outputs its charge as 'A' (I just changed it to 'C' for "charge"). And then whatever you want to control gets set to "enable if [signal] < 20".


Also, one boiler can supply two steam engines. Not just one. But that's another issue
Last edited by Serenity on Sun Oct 11, 2020 4:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: how do I switch between accumulator and steam/coal based machine?

Post by MassiveDynamic »

Ok, you should use 2 steam engines per boiler, and 20 boilers per offshore pump for maximum power generation potential.

Large power poles have a max reach of 14? tiles.

Circuit wires have a maximum (variable) reach of ... whatever is the max reach of the nearest power pole.

Use the lightning bolt button on the minimap in map view to see your connected electrical grid.

Note that any one accumulator can be used to check the total accumulator charge of all connected accumulators.

Then go back through the earlier posts in this thread and review the use of electric switch and offshore pump disconnect systems.

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Re: how do I switch between accumulator and steam/coal based machine?

Post by Yoyobuae »

JapaneseMom wrote:
Sun Oct 11, 2020 11:49 am
power cables? I dont understand what you mean. there are only green and red wire here
The same copper wire you use to make electronic circuits can be used to connect power poles with copper wire. You use hold it in cursor, click the first power pole and then the second power pole. If the connection already exists doing that will remove the connection, and create a new connection if it doesn't exist. It works similarly to red/green wire.

You can do this same thing to connect power poles to a power switch. You connect one power pole to one side of the power switch, using copper wire, and then connect the other side of the power switch to different power pole. When the power switch is closed then power can flow between those two power poles thru the power switch.

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Re: how do I switch between accumulator and steam/coal based machine?

Post by TheRangerLOL »

JapaneseMom wrote:
Sun Oct 11, 2020 11:49 am


ahhh bruhh, yeah you can connect the red wire. wtf, last night it wont let me connect it says cable wont reach
:lol: Well at least it's working now.
I dont understand what you mean. connecting red wire to boiler or something?
Don't worry about it, it's not important.


power cables? I dont understand what you mean. there are only green and red wire here
Yoyobuae wrote:
Sun Oct 11, 2020 2:57 pm
The same copper wire you use to make electronic circuits can be used to connect power poles with copper wire... It works similarly to red/green wire.
You can do this same thing to connect power poles to a power switch. You connect one power pole to one side of the power switch, using copper wire, and then connect the other side of the power switch to different power pole. When the power switch is closed then power can flow between those two power poles thru the power switch.
Your copper wires attaching to the power switch is going to be part of what makes this whole thing work. Could be part of what's giving you so much trouble.

also isnt main power grid basically any of the boiler? I mean I connect everything in right order anyway, so it should fill up anything that is currently empty right?
Your main power grid should be whatever is connected to your factory. The boilers are going to be backup power from now on, right?

so, something like this?
Yup, just make sure you connect your red wire and stuff. You can put the power switch and combinators right there if you wanted to.
damn I know people getting tired of this discussion...

:lol: Yeah I can see that as well. I don't mind though. I've got some experience explaining things that are sometimes difficult to grasp to new players. I've learned that patience when dealing with other people is extremely important, even when you're having a bad day (that's not to say you should ignore your feelings though). I also think there's a tiny bit of a language barrier here, which is making things slightly more difficult as well.

what the game taught you to do and what you want to do is vastly different. and people base and my base is different. I put my accumulator far away in case im going mega base, but people put their accumulator neat their base, so I dont know if distance matters in order to setup this kind of thing or not
Yeah that's one of the really cool things about it, i think anyways. And for this one, no, distance is not important. You can honestly connect whatever accumulator you want. It really doesn't matter where it is, except that it cannot be connected to the boilers.
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Re: how do I switch between accumulator and steam/coal based machine?

Post by JapaneseMom »

TheRangerLOL wrote:
Sun Oct 11, 2020 5:03 pm
Your copper wires attaching to the power switch is going to be part of what makes this whole thing work. Could be part of what's giving you so much trouble.
hmmmm, so something like this? (not sure if you can see it, but there is copper cable connecting from main to switcher)
Screenshot (1290)_LI.jpg
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TheRangerLOL wrote:
Sun Oct 11, 2020 5:03 pm
Your main power grid should be whatever is connected to your factory. The boilers are going to be backup power from now on, right?
yess. so is this connection correct? (ill ask regarding the programming again once the connection already in place)
Screenshot (1292)_LI.jpg
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TheRangerLOL wrote:
Sun Oct 11, 2020 5:03 pm
:lol: Yeah I can see that as well. I don't mind though. I've got some experience explaining things that are sometimes difficult to grasp to new players. I've learned that patience when dealing with other people is extremely important, even when you're having a bad day (that's not to say you should ignore your feelings though). I also think there's a tiny bit of a language barrier here, which is making things slightly more difficult as well.
hahaha yeah thank god you still here
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Re: how do I switch between accumulator and steam/coal based machine?

Post by MassiveDynamic »

When you look at the map with the electric grid toggled on you should see a gap in the power line at the switch. It will show GREEN when the switch is ON and RED when the switch is OFF.

See below...
Screenshot (49).png
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Screenshot (48).png
Screenshot (48).png (327.9 KiB) Viewed 154 times

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Re: how do I switch between accumulator and steam/coal based machine?

Post by TheRangerLOL »

JapaneseMom wrote:
Sun Oct 11, 2020 6:39 pm
TheRangerLOL wrote:
Sun Oct 11, 2020 5:03 pm
Your copper wires attaching to the power switch is going to be part of what makes this whole thing work. Could be part of what's giving you so much trouble.
hmmmm, so something like this? (not sure if you can see it, but there is copper cable connecting from main to switcher)
Screenshot (1290)_LI.jpg
Yeah, I think you got it there.

yess. so is this connection correct? (ill ask regarding the programming again once the connection already in place)
Screenshot (1292)_LI.jpg
Short answer: No. :P

Long answer:
Okay so... each combinator has an input and an output connection spot. It might be obvious, but just in case it's not, it's very important that you don't connect these 2 spots together unless you really know what you're doing and have some special kinda circuit going on (I believe the SR latch connects them together, for example). I didn't include it in this picture, but if you press Alt the arrows will show you which side is the input and which side is the output.

The power switch works similarly, there are two separate places to connect copper wire, but on the power switch there's only one place to connect the circuit wires.

CircuitExample.png
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Also, if you're using my example as a guide you only need one combinator for the power switch to work.

I drew up another example for you. Hope this helps.
Steamswitchexample1.png
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hahaha yeah thank god you still here
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Re: how do I switch between accumulator and steam/coal based machine?

Post by MassiveDynamic »

Actually you don’t need the combinator for this to work. In that example the combinator is changing the “A” signal to “GREEN”. Simply eliminate the combinator and set the switch to operate when “A” < n (where n is your threshold).

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