Is there a way to store steam only when excess steam is produced (more steam than for the turbines),
I want to enable storage when there is excess steam, and use it after nuclear fuel is completed
if there is no excess steam , it should not store at all
Any ideas ?
requesting a clever way to store steam
-
varundevan
- Fast Inserter
- Posts: 170
- Joined: Mon Jan 20, 2020 4:41 am
- Contact:
-
MassiveDynamic
- Filter Inserter
- Posts: 260
- Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2018 10:44 pm
- Contact:
Re: requesting a clever way to store steam
Since fluid in tanks equalizes across connected tanks, add two tanks on the end of your steam pipes, then a pump to a third tank. Use a red or green wire connected from the second tank to the pump and set the pump to operate when steam is greater than “x”. Where x is whatever value you decide indicates extra steam.
The third tank will store excess steam.
The third tank will store excess steam.
Factorio Towns... https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLf5d ... -ps9WNZOCe
-
planetmaker
- Fast Inserter
- Posts: 180
- Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 9:30 am
- Contact:
Re: requesting a clever way to store steam
If you just want a nuclear reactor which does not run all time, but just when needed: attach steam tanks to the pipes and/or turbines - the excess steam will be stored when there's too much and consumed when there's too little. You just have to make sure via circuit network that that no new fuel is inserted as long as steam level in the tanks is above a certain threshold (and when inserted, that only one fuel cell is inserted)
-
varundevan
- Fast Inserter
- Posts: 170
- Joined: Mon Jan 20, 2020 4:41 am
- Contact:
Re: requesting a clever way to store steam
Thanks for the idea ,MassiveDynamic wrote: ↑Thu Feb 13, 2020 12:59 pmSince fluid in tanks equalizes across connected tanks, add two tanks on the end of your steam pipes, then a pump to a third tank. Use a red or green wire connected from the second tank to the pump and set the pump to operate when steam is greater than “x”. Where x is whatever value you decide indicates extra steam.
The third tank will store excess steam.
i tried that , but however, that resulted in pump operating in pulse. and when the steam has to be delivered , that also delivering in pulse manner (i hope you understood)
so, think, i have to use combinators to run if steam is between say 5k to 20k.
Last edited by varundevan on Thu Feb 13, 2020 5:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
-
varundevan
- Fast Inserter
- Posts: 170
- Joined: Mon Jan 20, 2020 4:41 am
- Contact:
Re: requesting a clever way to store steam
i have achieved exactly what you have mentioned.planetmaker wrote: ↑Thu Feb 13, 2020 1:21 pmIf you just want a nuclear reactor which does not run all time, but just when needed: attach steam tanks to the pipes and/or turbines - the excess steam will be stored when there's too much and consumed when there's too little. You just have to make sure via circuit network that that no new fuel is inserted as long as steam level in the tanks is above a certain threshold (and when inserted, that only one fuel cell is inserted)
but since the steam equalizes , the tank requires steam until reaches equilibrium, and reduces efficiency of the turbines.
its not a big deal , just wanted to optimize.
this is like a big deal to me than the rocket
( i have sent only 1 rocket btw)Re: requesting a clever way to store steam
You have two choices, I think, to achieve what you want ...
1 : put a bunch of Storage Tanks downstream of the Steam Turbines. Steam they don’t need is passed through, and you collect it in those tanks at the end. When the reactors run out of heat, you still ahve the steam, and can delay inputting more fuel until this steam will just about run out when the reactors finish heating up and generating steam again.
2 : put a bunch of Storage Tanks, separated by pumps, between the heat exchangers and the turbine generators. Steam gets pumped through the tanks, and goes into the turbine generators. Steam they don’t need is backpressured to stay in the storage tanks until needed. This functions identically to putting them after the turbines, but keeps pump pressure on the turbines at all times, until the steam runs out. Rather than guesstimating how much steam you need to ensure no loss of power while the reactors heat back up, simply connect to a storage tank before the last tank. You have to power the pumps, but in exchange, you don’t have that strange “partial filled = partial pressure” behavior that you do with the tanks at the back end.
1 : put a bunch of Storage Tanks downstream of the Steam Turbines. Steam they don’t need is passed through, and you collect it in those tanks at the end. When the reactors run out of heat, you still ahve the steam, and can delay inputting more fuel until this steam will just about run out when the reactors finish heating up and generating steam again.
2 : put a bunch of Storage Tanks, separated by pumps, between the heat exchangers and the turbine generators. Steam gets pumped through the tanks, and goes into the turbine generators. Steam they don’t need is backpressured to stay in the storage tanks until needed. This functions identically to putting them after the turbines, but keeps pump pressure on the turbines at all times, until the steam runs out. Rather than guesstimating how much steam you need to ensure no loss of power while the reactors heat back up, simply connect to a storage tank before the last tank. You have to power the pumps, but in exchange, you don’t have that strange “partial filled = partial pressure” behavior that you do with the tanks at the back end.
-
varundevan
- Fast Inserter
- Posts: 170
- Joined: Mon Jan 20, 2020 4:41 am
- Contact:
Re: requesting a clever way to store steam
Thanks for the idea,astroshak wrote: ↑Fri Feb 14, 2020 5:13 amYou have two choices, I think, to achieve what you want ...
1 : put a bunch of Storage Tanks downstream of the Steam Turbines. Steam they don’t need is passed through, and you collect it in those tanks at the end. When the reactors run out of heat, you still ahve the steam, and can delay inputting more fuel until this steam will just about run out when the reactors finish heating up and generating steam again.
2 : put a bunch of Storage Tanks, separated by pumps, between the heat exchangers and the turbine generators. Steam gets pumped through the tanks, and goes into the turbine generators. Steam they don’t need is backpressured to stay in the storage tanks until needed. This functions identically to putting them after the turbines, but keeps pump pressure on the turbines at all times, until the steam runs out. Rather than guesstimating how much steam you need to ensure no loss of power while the reactors heat back up, simply connect to a storage tank before the last tank. You have to power the pumps, but in exchange, you don’t have that strange “partial filled = partial pressure” behavior that you do with the tanks at the back end.
The first option looks simple, but i have tried that (putting tanks at the end of turbines) , however when operating ,i think the algorithm takes the whole as like a single pipe line, the turbine will not run at full capacity until equilibrium is reached.
For the second option , i am yet to try exactly like you said. But i have tried putting pumps to the turbines with tanks and heat exchanges at the pumps input. This has a problem too, when reaching the near full capacity of power output, the electricity to the pump decreases and the pump is pumping less . this hinders the flow of steam to the turbines.
appreciate your interest
we need a electronic check valve and a pressure sensor. I think i am taking it too far..
Last edited by varundevan on Fri Feb 14, 2020 11:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: requesting a clever way to store steam
varundevan wrote: ↑Thu Feb 13, 2020 2:35 pmThanks for the idea ,MassiveDynamic wrote: ↑Thu Feb 13, 2020 12:59 pmSince fluid in tanks equalizes across connected tanks, add two tanks on the end of your steam pipes, then a pump to a third tank. Use a red or green wire connected from the second tank to the pump and set the pump to operate when steam is greater than “x”. Where x is whatever value you decide indicates extra steam.
The third tank will store excess steam.
i tried that , but however, that resulted in pump operating in pulse. and when the steam has to be delivered , that also delivering in pulse manner (i hope you understood)
so, think, i have to use combinators to run if steam is between say 5k to 20k.
you need hysteresis on the combinator circuit using a clock so that its engagement does not flutter, but instead holds on between two values. the wiki has info on this.
-
varundevan
- Fast Inserter
- Posts: 170
- Joined: Mon Jan 20, 2020 4:41 am
- Contact:
Re: requesting a clever way to store steam
i have not yet got to a that level of using combinators , just simple if conditions. I will take a look, thanks for the information. It would be more helpful , if you could share the link.ptx0 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 14, 2020 7:29 amvarundevan wrote: ↑Thu Feb 13, 2020 2:35 pmThanks for the idea ,MassiveDynamic wrote: ↑Thu Feb 13, 2020 12:59 pmSince fluid in tanks equalizes across connected tanks, add two tanks on the end of your steam pipes, then a pump to a third tank. Use a red or green wire connected from the second tank to the pump and set the pump to operate when steam is greater than “x”. Where x is whatever value you decide indicates extra steam.
The third tank will store excess steam.
i tried that , but however, that resulted in pump operating in pulse. and when the steam has to be delivered , that also delivering in pulse manner (i hope you understood)
so, think, i have to use combinators to run if steam is between say 5k to 20k.
you need hysteresis on the combinator circuit using a clock so that its engagement does not flutter, but instead holds on between two values. the wiki has info on this.
-
planetmaker
- Fast Inserter
- Posts: 180
- Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 9:30 am
- Contact:
Re: requesting a clever way to store steam
You're looking for an RS-latch. There's a design step-by-step description on one example in the circuit network cookbook in the wiki....
-
varundevan
- Fast Inserter
- Posts: 170
- Joined: Mon Jan 20, 2020 4:41 am
- Contact:
Re: requesting a clever way to store steam
Thank you for the information , let me check and try it outplanetmaker wrote: ↑Fri Feb 14, 2020 11:17 amYou're looking for an RS-latch. There's a design step-by-step description on one example in the circuit network cookbook in the wiki....
Re: requesting a clever way to store steam
Pumps seem complicated. I just attach as many tanks I can find space for and calculate the min steam level such that if a fuel cell is inserted and no power is consumed, I just get full tanks.
The tanks will never empty but I will never have wasted heat.
As for the circuit to control the fuel insertion ...
https://youtu.be/CRsTHPgwTzY
No combinators. Works great for me - I have one empty-cell-removing inserter control all the fuel cell inserters.
The tanks will never empty but I will never have wasted heat.
As for the circuit to control the fuel insertion ...
https://youtu.be/CRsTHPgwTzY
No combinators. Works great for me - I have one empty-cell-removing inserter control all the fuel cell inserters.
-
MassiveDynamic
- Filter Inserter
- Posts: 260
- Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2018 10:44 pm
- Contact:
Re: requesting a clever way to store steam
Here is a video on SR latchvarundevan wrote: ↑Thu Feb 13, 2020 2:35 pmMassiveDynamic wrote: ↑Thu Feb 13, 2020 12:59 pmSince fluid in tanks equalizes across connected tanks, add two tanks on the end of your steam pipes, then a pump to a third tank. Use a red or green wire connected from the second tank to the pump and set the pump to operate when steam is greater than “x”. Where x is whatever value you decide indicates extra steam.
The third tank will store excess steam.
https://youtu.be/AIYma_dtEUo
Factorio Towns... https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLf5d ... -ps9WNZOCe
Re: requesting a clever way to store steam
You can use this switch:
viewtopic.php?f=193&t=32432
The way fluids and heat pipes work, means you want to not split inputs/outputs into multiple pipe segments. One way to achieve this is using more generators.
Concept setup in editor mode, with Waterfill and Santa's Nixie tubes for display.
Configured the the electric energy interface to drain 474MW from the max 480 MW this setup produces.
Min steam of is sufficient to keep full power until the heat pipes are back at >501 degrees again.
[Edit] Oops, forgot some green wires... corrected.
[Edit2] After some additional testing, i recommend setting the steam value in the combinator to -900K, and the T(rigger) value to 100K, for an effective on/of range of 800K-1000K
I usually never bother minimizing fuel usage in my nuclear setups. More than enough Uranium available, and it eliminates tanks and circuit network shenanigans.
viewtopic.php?f=193&t=32432
The way fluids and heat pipes work, means you want to not split inputs/outputs into multiple pipe segments. One way to achieve this is using more generators.
Concept setup in editor mode, with Waterfill and Santa's Nixie tubes for display.
Configured the the electric energy interface to drain 474MW from the max 480 MW this setup produces.
Min steam of is sufficient to keep full power until the heat pipes are back at >501 degrees again.
- Nuclear setup concept.png (1.22 MiB) Viewed 3001 times
[Edit2] After some additional testing, i recommend setting the steam value in the combinator to -900K, and the T(rigger) value to 100K, for an effective on/of range of 800K-1000K
I usually never bother minimizing fuel usage in my nuclear setups. More than enough Uranium available, and it eliminates tanks and circuit network shenanigans.
Re: requesting a clever way to store steam
There is a solution to that electrical problem you run into there ... though you may not like it much.varundevan wrote: ↑Fri Feb 14, 2020 5:58 amThanks for the idea,astroshak wrote: ↑Fri Feb 14, 2020 5:13 amYou have two choices, I think, to achieve what you want ...
1 : put a bunch of Storage Tanks downstream of the Steam Turbines. Steam they don’t need is passed through, and you collect it in those tanks at the end. When the reactors run out of heat, you still ahve the steam, and can delay inputting more fuel until this steam will just about run out when the reactors finish heating up and generating steam again.
2 : put a bunch of Storage Tanks, separated by pumps, between the heat exchangers and the turbine generators. Steam gets pumped through the tanks, and goes into the turbine generators. Steam they don’t need is backpressured to stay in the storage tanks until needed. This functions identically to putting them after the turbines, but keeps pump pressure on the turbines at all times, until the steam runs out. Rather than guesstimating how much steam you need to ensure no loss of power while the reactors heat back up, simply connect to a storage tank before the last tank. You have to power the pumps, but in exchange, you don’t have that strange “partial filled = partial pressure” behavior that you do with the tanks at the back end.
The first option looks simple, but i have tried that (putting tanks at the end of turbines) , however when operating ,i think the algorithm takes the whole as like a single pipe line, the turbine will not run at full capacity until equilibrium is reached.
For the second option , i am yet to try exactly like you said. But i have tried putting pumps to the turbines with tanks and heat exchanges at the pumps input. This has a problem too, when reaching the near full capacity of power output, the electricity to the pump decreases and the pump is pumping less . this hinders the flow of steam to the turbines.
appreciate your interest
we need a electronic check valve and a pressure sensor. I think i am taking it too far..
Have those pumps (and, really, the inserters for the reactors) be on their own power grid. Solar might be the simplest thing, but you could do this by having as couple of the turbines separated from the network the rest are on, and only powering the inserters/pumps. If they have their own, separate power supply, that is maintained sufficiently (its not like pumps and inserters really use all that much power individually anyway) then even if the rest of the power plant is not meeting its demands, at least the pumps won’t be a problem.
The other solution would be to math out the power demands of whatever you’re building, and making sure that you add more reactors before adding to the power demand. Ideally, you would do this anyway, but speaking from personal experience I know I don’t. If power demand is always met, you will not run into the problem of those pumps not functioning properly.
My nuclear BP’s are for one side of a 2x4 reactor, and they are chain-able, such that I can keep laying them next to one another for as long and as far as I need to. Thinking about it now, though, I think I will add in these innovations to them (I don’t usually bother to store the steam, but playing around with that could be fun, but using solar for the inserters and pumps is not part of my own BP’s). As well as another innovation from another nuclear BP thread a couple months back that I never got around to incorporating.
-
varundevan
- Fast Inserter
- Posts: 170
- Joined: Mon Jan 20, 2020 4:41 am
- Contact:
Re: requesting a clever way to store steam
Thanks for sharing , i have not used a hysteresis before, let me try it outdisentius wrote: ↑Fri Feb 14, 2020 6:28 pmYou can use this switch:
viewtopic.php?f=193&t=32432
The way fluids and heat pipes work, means you want to not split inputs/outputs into multiple pipe segments. One way to achieve this is using more generators.
Concept setup in editor mode, with Waterfill and Santa's Nixie tubes for display.
Configured the the electric energy interface to drain 474MW from the max 480 MW this setup produces.
Min steam of is sufficient to keep full power until the heat pipes are back at >501 degrees again.
Nuclear setup concept.png
[Edit] Oops, forgot some green wires... corrected.
[Edit2] After some additional testing, i recommend setting the steam value in the combinator to -900K, and the T(rigger) value to 100K, for an effective on/of range of 800K-1000K
I usually never bother minimizing fuel usage in my nuclear setups. More than enough Uranium available, and it eliminates tanks and circuit network shenanigans.
Edit 1 : well , what is the electric energy interface, how to use that ( well to rephrase , how to enable editor mode)
Last edited by varundevan on Sat Feb 15, 2020 6:42 pm, edited 2 times in total.
-
varundevan
- Fast Inserter
- Posts: 170
- Joined: Mon Jan 20, 2020 4:41 am
- Contact:
Re: requesting a clever way to store steam
i agree, that we most likely have power more than requirement , and pumps will not be a problem. Just that, my interest revolving around different layouts and build the most efficient that optimizes and outputs full power.astroshak wrote: ↑Fri Feb 14, 2020 9:20 pmThere is a solution to that electrical problem you run into there ... though you may not like it much.varundevan wrote: ↑Fri Feb 14, 2020 5:58 amThanks for the idea,astroshak wrote: ↑Fri Feb 14, 2020 5:13 amYou have two choices, I think, to achieve what you want ...
1 : put a bunch of Storage Tanks downstream of the Steam Turbines. Steam they don’t need is passed through, and you collect it in those tanks at the end. When the reactors run out of heat, you still ahve the steam, and can delay inputting more fuel until this steam will just about run out when the reactors finish heating up and generating steam again.
2 : put a bunch of Storage Tanks, separated by pumps, between the heat exchangers and the turbine generators. Steam gets pumped through the tanks, and goes into the turbine generators. Steam they don’t need is backpressured to stay in the storage tanks until needed. This functions identically to putting them after the turbines, but keeps pump pressure on the turbines at all times, until the steam runs out. Rather than guesstimating how much steam you need to ensure no loss of power while the reactors heat back up, simply connect to a storage tank before the last tank. You have to power the pumps, but in exchange, you don’t have that strange “partial filled = partial pressure” behavior that you do with the tanks at the back end.
The first option looks simple, but i have tried that (putting tanks at the end of turbines) , however when operating ,i think the algorithm takes the whole as like a single pipe line, the turbine will not run at full capacity until equilibrium is reached.
For the second option , i am yet to try exactly like you said. But i have tried putting pumps to the turbines with tanks and heat exchanges at the pumps input. This has a problem too, when reaching the near full capacity of power output, the electricity to the pump decreases and the pump is pumping less . this hinders the flow of steam to the turbines.
appreciate your interest
we need a electronic check valve and a pressure sensor. I think i am taking it too far..
Have those pumps (and, really, the inserters for the reactors) be on their own power grid. Solar might be the simplest thing, but you could do this by having as couple of the turbines separated from the network the rest are on, and only powering the inserters/pumps. If they have their own, separate power supply, that is maintained sufficiently (its not like pumps and inserters really use all that much power individually anyway) then even if the rest of the power plant is not meeting its demands, at least the pumps won’t be a problem.
The other solution would be to math out the power demands of whatever you’re building, and making sure that you add more reactors before adding to the power demand. Ideally, you would do this anyway, but speaking from personal experience I know I don’t. If power demand is always met, you will not run into the problem of those pumps not functioning properly.
My nuclear BP’s are for one side of a 2x4 reactor, and they are chain-able, such that I can keep laying them next to one another for as long and as far as I need to. Thinking about it now, though, I think I will add in these innovations to them (I don’t usually bother to store the steam, but playing around with that could be fun, but using solar for the inserters and pumps is not part of my own BP’s). As well as another innovation from another nuclear BP thread a couple months back that I never got around to incorporating.