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https://wiki.factorio.com/Worker_robot_speed_(research)

According to the wiki and the game, unless I missed something:

A utility science package is required at research level 3 and 4.
In contrast, (the interesting part is)

Production science package is not required. (They are included at level 5.)

I haven't seen any similar differences in the tech tree. Is this intentional or is it a detail that has been overlooked for a long time?

oyunbagimlisi wrote: ↑Sat Dec 30, 2023 3:30 am https://wiki.factorio.com/Worker_robot_speed_(research)

According to the wiki and the game, unless I missed something:

A utility science package is required at research level 3 and 4.
In contrast, (the interesting part is)

Production science package is not required. (They are included at level 5.)

No doubt someone will be along shortly to point out anything I've forgotten, but I think you are correct that Worker robot speed is the only tiered technology where Production science packs are required at a higher tier than Utility science packs. However, there are several tiered technologies where the reverse (Utility "after" Production) is the case.

If you consider that Utility science packs are a progression from Production science packs - which I think the latter point above reinforces - then this makes Worker robot speed seem like an oversight or mistake. In fact, Production and Utility science packs are broadly similar to each other in raw material cost, both being a substantial jump from earlier science packs, and I think are intended to be seen as different directions after Chemical science packs. (As a sidenote, I get the impression the Space Age expansion will make the "different direction" aspect a bigger part of the game.)

With that view, all that remains is the general trend that later (by which I mean "more levels of prerequisites") technologies require additional science packs, and the higher Worker robot speed tiers are no exception to that.

https://wiki.factorio.com/Worker_robot_ ... (research)

With a lot of research, I cannot find an equivalence that is comparable to gaming standards in any case. All other research examples aside, "cargo size" research is, in my opinion, the most reasonable "comparison". Cargo size research also has a progression logic, as we are used to in vanilla. Long story short, what distinguishes robot airspeed research from other research, especially robot cargo size research?

You can say production science is for big machines, and utility science is for small sophisticated electronic machines, so utility is more important for flying robots than production.

From a gameplay perspective, may be this is beneficial for balancing. It keeps ratios between the science packs more equal, if you intend to equally research every tech. You don't need vastly more of one science pack than of another pack.

Somewhat relevant, but the logistics chests research also requires no purple science while requiring yellow science, and it is also robotics related. That's why in my mind, yellow science is always related to robotics (even aside from the fact that it uses a robot frame in the recipe).

MEOWMI wrote: ↑Sat Dec 30, 2023 1:11 pm Somewhat relevant, but the logistics chests research also requires no purple science while requiring yellow science, and it is also robotics related. That's why in my mind, yellow science is always related to robotics (even aside from the fact that it uses a robot frame in the recipe).

There may be reasonable explanations for this. For example, military research (grey/3rd science) and production-oriented research (purple/5th science) are sometimes specific. In some studies, the game may or may not be found without any distinction, such as the end or the beginning.

For example: Artillery (research)

Although it is an advanced technology, a 3rd science is required, but there is no 5th science... I do not object to this because it has no connection with specific research and production in the military field.

In short, there is a reasonable explanation for the example you gave and the things I said.

So where exactly is my objection/disagreement:

In a research tree alone, the 6th science is required first, and then the 5th science is required at later stages. This is a standalone research tree (Worker robot speed (research). There is no other "weirdness" like this in finite or infinite research that I know of.

note: The example I gave above should be understood well, I am talking about an entire research tree alone...

Tertius wrote: ↑Sat Dec 30, 2023 12:35 pm You can say production science is for big machines, and utility science is for small sophisticated electronic machines, so utility is more important for flying robots than production.

From a gameplay perspective, may be this is beneficial for balancing. It keeps ratios between the science packs more equal, if you intend to equally research every tech. You don't need vastly more of one science pack than of another pack.

3. AND 5. RESEARCH research refers to a specific field. It may or may not be found completely in some studies. But in a single research tree, there is no other research where the 5th science is required after the 6th science. (Note that robot speed is an infinite research...)

oyunbagimlisi wrote: ↑Sat Dec 30, 2023 9:04 am All other research examples aside, "cargo size" research is, in my opinion, the most reasonable "comparison".

I agree this is a good comparison. As MEOWMI noted, Logistic system requires Utility science packs but not Production (like Worker robot speed 3 and 4), but to me at least this is a stronger suggestion that Worker robot cargo size should be like Worker robot speed (ie both should require Utility before Production) than the other way around (ie both Production before Utility).

oyunbagimlisi wrote: ↑Sat Dec 30, 2023 5:16 pm In a research tree alone, the 6th science is required first, and then the 5th science is required at later stages. This is a standalone research tree (Worker robot speed (research). There is no other "weirdness" like this in finite or infinite research that I know of.

Rephrasing the point from my previous post, the "weirdness" arises from seeing Utility science packs as a progression from Production science packs. From the technology tree as a whole, and of course the order they are listed in eg recipe selection, there are good reasons to see it that way. However, closer inspection suggests to me that the intention is that each is a progression from Chemical science packs, although in most cases you can only get so far without both. I mentioned their comparable raw material cost in my earlier post; I also note there are clear reasons to want to start producing and consuming Utility science packs before Production science packs: robot logistics as mentioned, and personal equipment and military enhancements.

SoShootMe wrote: ↑Sun Dec 31, 2023 12:07 am However, closer inspection suggests to me that the intention is that each is a progression from Chemical science packs, although in most cases you can only get so far without both.

They were explicitly designed to both be alternative viable choices after chem science.

https://factorio.com/blog/post/fff-275 wrote:In 0.15 Kovarex introduced a new design where the player should be able to make a choice between different tech paths and get different benefits from each.

https://factorio.com/blog/post/fff-275 wrote:During several playthroughs of very different settings and styles I have tried how viable it is to prioritize one or the other science pack (Production vs. Utility) and I got results I was very happy with.

https://factorio.com/blog/post/fff-159 wrote:As the 0.15 work started, the first thing I wanted to do was to rebalance the science packs. We feel that the science pack 1 and 2 balance is just right, but the level 3 (blue) is quite a large jump in complexity, while the alien science pack is trivial. Then I checked that the last time we changed something about the science packs was 2.5 years ago, so it might be the time to try to be more creative.
After some discussions, we decided to make the science packs not so linear and more iterative, the current working version looks something like this: