Are production ratios changed by modules and why?

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Quax
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Are production ratios changed by modules and why?

Post by Quax »

I'm currently trying to set up an efficient lubricant / light oil / petroleum production using beacons and speed / productivity modules. I always read that the basic production ratios (in that case the ratio refinery:heavy oil cracking:light oil cracking) are no longer valid when using modules. But why would that be? The modules are altering the production characteristic of each single component in the same way (eg. +10% productivity / - 15% speed). SO the ratios should remain unchanged, shouldn't they?

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DaveMcW
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Re: Are production ratios changed by modules and why?

Post by DaveMcW »

Quax wrote:
Tue Sep 21, 2021 8:28 pm
I always read that the basic production ratios (in that case the ratio refinery:heavy oil cracking:light oil cracking) are no longer valid when using modules.
[Citation needed]

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Silari
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Re: Are production ratios changed by modules and why?

Post by Silari »

Quax wrote:
Tue Sep 21, 2021 8:28 pm
I'm currently trying to set up an efficient lubricant / light oil / petroleum production using beacons and speed / productivity modules. I always read that the basic production ratios (in that case the ratio refinery:heavy oil cracking:light oil cracking) are no longer valid when using modules. But why would that be? The modules are altering the production characteristic of each single component in the same way (eg. +10% productivity / - 15% speed). SO the ratios should remain unchanged, shouldn't they?
You're missing the fact that the ratio of input ingredients:output is being changed by the productivity modules. They're all 15% slower, but output amount (but not input) is ALSO 10% greater. Productivity bonus is like a lopsided speed boost - you're only boosting the speed of the output without the input speed changing.

As an example, if you use prod modules on your heavy to light cracking, you're now producing more light oil for the same amount of heavy oil. That means you'd need extra light to petroleum crackers to use up the extra 10% you're making, despite having the same number of refineries doing advanced oil processing.

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Re: Are production ratios changed by modules and why?

Post by astroshak »

It changes the ratios a lot.

According to the Factoriocheatsheet.com/#oil-refining page, the accurate ratio of AOP refineries to crackers is 20 refineries, 5 HO->LO crackers, 17 LO->PG crackers. Let’s look at that first, shall we?

Refineries have a speed of 1. Chem plants also have a speed of 1. AOP uses 100 Crude and 50 Water to produce 25 HO, 45 LO, and 55 PG, every 5 seconds. Put another way, they use 20 Crude and 10 Water per sec, to produce 5 HO/sec, 9 LO/sec, 11 PG/sec. Also, cracking HO->LO is 40 HO/2 sec ->30 LO/2 sec (20->15 per second). LO->PG is 30->20 every 2 sec, or 15->10/sec. Lube is 10 HO->10 Lube per second.

20 AOP refineries therefore, take 400 crude/sec and 200 water/sec to produce 100 HO/sec, 180 LO/sec, 220 PG/sec. You can have 10 Lube producers from those 20 refineries. You can also have 5 HO->LO cracking chem plants, as they consume 20/sec each of the 100/sec HO produced. That gives you an additional 15/sec/plant (or 75/sec total) LO, on top of the 180 produced by the refineries. That’s 255 LO/sec in total (assuming all HO->LO crackers are in use - no Lube being produced anymore). 255/15=17, that’s where the 17 LO->PG crackers comes from. That gives you an additional 170 PG/sec, for a grand total of 390 PG/sec.

Now, lets say you use enough Speed Beacons and Productivity modules that your refineries are speed 5.55, and your chem plants are speed 4.55. How does that change things up?

At a speed of 5.55 and a productivity bonus of 30%, that 20/sec and 10/sec crude and water demand shoots up a lot - to 111 crude/sec, and 55.5 water/sec. For that, you produce (before Productivity is accounted for) 5.55 times the HO/LO/PG per second as well - from 5/9/11 to 27.75 HO, 49.95 LO, 61.05 PG. Factoring in the productivity bonus, you get 36.075 HO/sec, 64.935 LO/sec, 79.365 PG/sec, PER REFINERY.

That initial 20 refineries before, consume 2220 crude and 1110 water per second all beaconed up, and produce 721.5 HO/sec, 1298.7 LO/sec, 1587.2 PG/sec.

With a speed of 4.55 and a productivity bonus of 30%, crackers have also had their demand for product increased. Lube, from drinking 10 HO to produce 10 Lube per second, now wants 45.5 HO, to produce 59.15 Lube/sec. Where before you needed 10 Lube chem plants to convert all that HO into Lube, now you are producing so much more that you need 15.857 chem plants (round up to 16).

HO->LO, previously drinking 20 HO/sec and spitting out 15 LO/sec, is now drinking 91 HO/sec, to produce 88.725 LO/sec. You need a little over 8 chem plants working on this (8.131), so round up to 9 and accept that the last one won’t be working full time. 8 such chem plants, however, combined with the refinery output, gives you 2008.5 LO/sec in total. The 9th will increase that somewhat.

LO->PG, previously drinking 15 LO/sec and spitting out 10 PG/sec, is now drinking 68.25 LO/sec, and spitting out 59.15 PG/sec. at 2008.8 (or somewhat higher) LO/sec, you need 29.428 LO->PG refineries to drink it all, so round up to 29. That should cover the slight increase to LO from that 9th HO->LO chem plant as well.

So, you’re at 20 AOP, 5 HO->LO, and 17 LO->PG without beacons or modules. Add beacons and modules, that 20 AOP needs 9 HO->LO and 29 LO->PG.

You need to do the math to see what you need based on your crude supply, as ultimately crude supply is the determining factor. It does no good to plan on 50 AOP refineries all beaconed and moduled, if you can only supply the refineries 1200 crude/sec. Rather than going off of ratios that others have determined, do the math based on your available crude to see what you can produce, and build to that.

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Re: Are production ratios changed by modules and why?

Post by mrvn »

astroshak wrote:
Tue Sep 21, 2021 9:43 pm
Now, lets say you use enough Speed Beacons and Productivity modules that your refineries are speed 5.55, and your chem plants are speed 4.55. How does that change things up?
If you use different numbers of modules for different buildings then obviously that changes the ratios. And that might be the actual answer to the posted question.

You can place more beacons around an oil refinery than a chemical plant so you can stack more speed bonuses on the oil refinery and that alters the ratios of buildings.

If you use the same number of speed modules on every building then I believe the ratios remain the same.
Last edited by mrvn on Wed Sep 22, 2021 2:25 am, edited 1 time in total.

torne
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Re: Are production ratios changed by modules and why?

Post by torne »

Productivity modules change ratios even if you have the exact same modules. Say you have a 1:1 ratio where machine A is feeding machine B. If you add 10% speed to both nothing changes as they still take the same relative time to craft, but if you add 10% productivity to both then now machine A outputs 1.1 times as many items per cycle, but machine B still wants the same amount of input per cycle, so A will eventually back up and not run all the time, because it's no longer a 1:1 ratio.

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Re: Are production ratios changed by modules and why?

Post by astroshak »

That principle was illustrated with the increased number of chem plants needed for cracking, when comparing no beacons/modules to with beacons/modules.

There’s a reason you can almost get by with 1:1 instead of 3:2 when making green circuits once you start working modules into the mix.

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Re: Are production ratios changed by modules and why?

Post by foamy »

DaveMcW wrote:
Tue Sep 21, 2021 8:34 pm
Quax wrote:
Tue Sep 21, 2021 8:28 pm
I always read that the basic production ratios (in that case the ratio refinery:heavy oil cracking:light oil cracking) are no longer valid when using modules.
[Citation needed]
It's trivially true as soon as you're using production modules, as I know you are well aware of.

Speed modules have no impact, of course, provided the bonuses are the same... which may not be the case, since chem plants and assemblers can take different numbers of modules, and refineries can have more beacons than either on account of their larger sizes.

Quax
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Re: Are production ratios changed by modules and why?

Post by Quax »

Thanks for the huge amount of in-detail explanation :-) I guess the nost important issue is that I missed the fact that the input values are not altered by modules. I was assuming that the same happens at higher process speed, but that obviously is wrong for productivity mdules :-)

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