Nerf the Portable Fusion Reactor?

Place to discuss the game balance, recipes, health, enemies mining etc.

Is the Personal Fusion Reactor overpowered?

No
37
86%
Yes
6
14%
 
Total votes: 43

Koub
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Re: Nerf the Portable Fusion Reactor?

Post by Koub »

coppercoil wrote: ↑
Fri Jan 29, 2021 8:51 am
Sure. But what does it mean for the Balancing forum?
What should I write differently to not get the reminder?

Would it help if I would add we all would add words "Personally I think..." on the top of every sentence? I thought this is a default mode.
"I think it would be best for my own fun" will have a different outcome than "I think it would be best for the vast majority of the player base's fun".

If you're aware (or at least you suspect) you have very eclectic preferences in terms of realism compared to the majority of players, then balancing forum is not the optimal place : modding would be best suited.
If you're pretty sure everyone (or at least most players) is will be eager with the balancing tweak you suggest, then you aimed at the right target.
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Re: Nerf the Portable Fusion Reactor?

Post by coppercoil »

I understand the difference. I'm not sure regarding "everyone". Would anybody say "I am sure regarding everyone"?
Nevertheless, we share our thoughts, possibly giving some value for the one who make decisions. More discuss gives more detailed picture, I think it's good.

Let's back to the PFR. I believe that most of Factorio players like solving difficulties. For example, what if trains would run without fueling?

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Re: Nerf the Portable Fusion Reactor?

Post by Koub »

coppercoil wrote: ↑
Fri Jan 29, 2021 4:23 pm
Let's back to the PFR. I believe that most of Factorio players like solving difficulties. For example, what if trains would run without fueling?
I think that both don't play in the same category. At one given time, I have only one avatar, while there can be 100s of trains doing their stuff, fully automated.
For whatever would need a "one from time to time" recharge/craft for the engineer's equipment, I prefer a simple plop and forget thing. The devs had the same approach with the pickaxe object. The added value to have and craft one every now and then was infinitesimal (in vanilla, because I understand that some mods relied on deeper mechanisms to determine what was minable by what type of pickaxe).
The engineer's equipment doesn't have to scale, no matter how long the playtime is (in vanilla). I'm aware all this might not be true with a modded experience.
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Re: Nerf the Portable Fusion Reactor?

Post by adamwong246 »

I'd like to draw everyone's attention to the poll which I have just added to the original post.

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Re: Nerf the Portable Fusion Reactor?

Post by ptx0 »

coppercoil wrote: ↑
Fri Jan 29, 2021 8:51 am
Koub wrote: ↑
Fri Jan 29, 2021 8:36 am
I'd like to remind two things :
Sure. But what does it mean for the Balancing forum?
What should I write differently to not get the reminder?

Would it help if I would add we all would add words "Personally I think..." on the top of every sentence? I thought this is a default mode.
maybe it's that you keep insisting on repeating your opinions in here as if it weren't a personal opinion.
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Re: Nerf the Portable Fusion Reactor?

Post by adamwong246 »

Regardless of modding-vs-vanilla: Please stop griefing each other (and me too, I don't appreciate the huffiness either) Please just leave your constructive feedback but keep the non-constructive thoughts to yourself. An endless loop of "That's just your opinion maaaan" isn't helpful. It's all just opinions! Just because someone has an idea, for a mod OR for vanilla, there's no reason for sarcasm and snide bickering. Didn't your mother ever teach you that if you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all!?

If this post is in the wrong forum, then let's move it to the right forum. I'm not always sure which forum to post in, so if the mods would be so kind, we can move it to a better place.

Take a hint from my blood type and BE POSITIVE.

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Re: Nerf the Portable Fusion Reactor?

Post by Guenni7 »

I constantly run out of energy when building larger blueprints, even with 3 PFR and ~8 Batteries.
If the PFR gets nerfed it wouldn't be any fun to play anymore.

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Re: Nerf the Portable Fusion Reactor?

Post by jodokus31 »

It seems to me, that the words "nerf" and "overpowered" are not the core argument of this suggestion.
I understand it more as, let it as strong as it is, but pay for its maintenance like add fuel requirement or something along those lines.

It would be nice, if we had a clever way to this, without getting annoying.
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Re: Nerf the Portable Fusion Reactor?

Post by adamwong246 »

Guenni7 wrote: ↑
Sun Jan 31, 2021 8:48 pm
I constantly run out of energy when building larger blueprints, even with 3 PFR and ~8 Batteries.
If the PFR gets nerfed it wouldn't be any fun to play anymore.
Then, with a nerfed PFR, you need to keep a supply of burnables nearby, especially when you are doing energy intensive tasks. If re-supplying your energy into the PFR takes too much time, automate it with drones. Or research higher tiers of nerfed PFR, drones, and batteries. There's lot of ways to make sure you have the energy you need.

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Re: Nerf the Portable Fusion Reactor?

Post by Kyralessa »

adamwong246 wrote: ↑
Sun Jan 31, 2021 9:16 pm
Then, with a nerfed PFR, you need to keep a supply of burnables nearby, especially when you are doing energy intensive tasks. If re-supplying your energy into the PFR takes too much time, automate it with drones. Or research higher tiers of nerfed PFR, drones, and batteries. There's lot of ways to make sure you have the energy you need.
Your case for this "feature" is things like this:
It's not a matter of realism, it's a matter of consistency. Everything in the game adheres to the laws of the conservation of matter and energy, except in this one occasion.
The thing is, a game also has to be fun. If you want to make your case, don't (only) explain why it would be more realistic. Explain why it would be more fun than the way the PFR works now.

It seems like you've already made a mod implementing your idea. That's great! The next step is to wait and see whether your mod becomes wildly popular. If it does, and if it fits the developers' vision for the game, there's a good chance it'll become part of the game.

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Re: Nerf the Portable Fusion Reactor?

Post by bormand »

I don't think it should be nerfed... PFR already has a lot of downsides: it's very large and gives just twice more power than 16 solar panels.

I think it would be better to add another alternative generator. It will be smaller and way more powerful, but will require fuel. So, you will have a choice between "set and forget" or "keep refueling and have max power". Choices are fun.

P.S. As for realism, PFR it's just like RTG that works for years without refueling.

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Re: Nerf the Portable Fusion Reactor?

Post by pichutarius »

bormand wrote: ↑
Mon Feb 01, 2021 7:01 am
I don't think it should be nerfed... PFR already has a lot of downsides: it's very large and gives just twice more power than 16 solar panels.

I think it would be better to add another alternative generator. It will be smaller and way more powerful, but will require fuel. So, you will have a choice between "set and forget" or "keep refueling and have max power". Choices are fun.

P.S. As for realism, PFR it's just like RTG that works for years without refueling.
i "unexpectedly" like the choice suggestion. i thought it was dumb but after some thinking, i like it.

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Re: Nerf the Portable Fusion Reactor?

Post by adamwong246 »

Kyralessa wrote: ↑
Mon Feb 01, 2021 6:45 am

The thing is, a game also has to be fun. If you want to make your case, don't (only) explain why it would be more realistic. Explain why it would be more fun than the way the PFR works now.
I just think it would be more fun because it would pose a greater challenge. I like playing "as the engineer" with limitations, not "as a god" who can do anything. The constraints of the game are what make it fun- imposing new constraints opens you up to new types of play. Good games force you to change your tactics as the situation arrises- bad games let you spam the same strategy till the end. In this case, having a pack without any real power concerns is a powerful strategy and one with little downside. Forcing the player to keep a ready supply of power is "fun" (I think so) but I guess lots of other's disagree.

But let me put it this way- given that I have some 600 hours of playtime and launched 100's of rockets, I need more challenge. I'm bored with the game, having exploited every possible gameplay mechanic. What I DON'T need is more ingredients, recipes, buffs for existing infrastructure etc. I need deeper, more challenging mechanics. With a nerfed PFR, many options are now open to you. Do you research pack-technology to make your burner-PFR more effective? Or do you make denser forms of fuel? Or maybe you are near a coal patch and your drones can constantly refuel your pack, straight from the ground. You may need to build an entire mini-factory, just to make the high-density fuel you need.

With the un-nerfed PFR, my game play works something like this- Outfit myself for battle and charge into a nest, retreating briefly to allow my batteries to recharge. Do this over and over again... forever? I was able to use this strategy for pretty much the whole game. With a nerfed-PFR, you now have an additional problem, dependent on your situation.
Kyralessa wrote: ↑
Mon Feb 01, 2021 6:45 am

It seems like you've already made a mod implementing your idea. That's great! The next step is to wait and see whether your mod becomes wildly popular. If it does, and if it fits the developers' vision for the game, there's a good chance it'll become part of the game.
I suppose this is the best possible answer and it satisfies me. If it were my decision, all of vanilla would follow the conservation of energy and anything that breaks this would be a mod. But I'm not a dev and the devs are clear- mods are 2nd class citizens to vanilla. I really do think this is the correct attitude but if I were a dev, I'd still make an argument for consistency.

I'm really not sure how to convince players that "more fun == more challenging". Perhaps the argument from "consistency" or "realism" is unconvincing. Can I argue that the challenge is simply more fun?

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Re: Nerf the Portable Fusion Reactor?

Post by adamwong246 »

pichutarius wrote: ↑
Mon Feb 01, 2021 7:15 am
i "unexpectedly" like the choice suggestion. i thought it was dumb but after some thinking, i like it.
Can you elaborate on this?

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Re: Nerf the Portable Fusion Reactor?

Post by adamwong246 »

bormand wrote: ↑
Mon Feb 01, 2021 7:01 am
P.S. As for realism, PFR it's just like RTG that works for years without refueling.
And yet, in reality even RTGs require fuel. Perhaps it lasts for a looooong time, but not infinite amounts of time. An non-infinite RTG fuel source would be great- a low-power but long-lasting power supply would be perfect for certain situations. But, this is key: the fuel-source and burner should act consistently and you should be required to make sacrifices.

Perhaps...
The RTG-fuel is last longer than other fuel but it produces lesses energy.
The process for making RTG-fuel is easy.
The process for making a RTG-burner is easy but it takes up very little space in the equipment grid.

There are lots of ways to tweak this to make it fair, fun and consistent. But a free-energy machine is NOT the solution I would expect.

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Re: Nerf the Portable Fusion Reactor?

Post by bormand »

adamwong246 wrote: ↑
Mon Feb 01, 2021 6:27 pm
Good games force you to change your tactics as the situation arrises- bad games let you spam the same strategy till the end.
That's why I suggested to add your generator as alternative option, so player can change his tactics depending on the situation and choose between weak but maintenance-free PFR and way more powerful but more annoying generator. I.e. we can use PFR for casual stuff, but use your generator for non-stop hardcore combat or building. Because it's really better in some situations, not because it's forced onto us.

Forcing is never fun. Good balance is.

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Re: Nerf the Portable Fusion Reactor?

Post by bormand »

adamwong246 wrote: ↑
Mon Feb 01, 2021 6:45 pm
But a free-energy machine is NOT the solution I would expect.
Honestly, PFR is pretty weak for a "free-energy machine".

Can I run, build and fight non-stop?

No, PFR's are too large and too weak for that. They barely supply fifty or so bots, they barely allow to fit five exos. We already need to make sacrifices.
adamwong246 wrote: ↑
Mon Feb 01, 2021 6:27 pm
With the un-nerfed PFR, my game play works something like this- Outfit myself for battle and charge into a nest, retreating briefly to allow my batteries to recharge.
So, you see those downsides too? ;) You can't fight non-stop, you need to use other weapons to be productive. The same is for personal roboport, I barely use it, resorting to the stationary ports when they are available.

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Re: Nerf the Portable Fusion Reactor?

Post by adamwong246 »

Forcing is never fun.
Are you "forced" to play by the rules of a game? Well, yes, that's how rules and games work. Are you forced to not double-dribble when playing basketball? Yes, that's how basketball is played and it's fundamental to the game. The rules that comprise the game itself are constraints that "force" you to play under a set of known fixed assumptions. How you work within those constraints is the core of the "fun."

I was under the impression (still am actually) that one of the "rules" of Factorio was conservation of "stuff" and to me, it's perhaps the MOST important aspect of the game. IMHO, if you want to break those rules, you should have to play in god-mode, cheat or mod. But vanilla should, as best as possible, remain strict and consistent in the application of those rules. Factorio can give you options for dealing with those rules, but the PFR is a silver bullet that trumps everything.

If anything, I feel FORCED to use the PFR (in vanilla), because it is so powerful and also because there is, AFAIK, only one alternative- solar panels. A burner-PFR actually gives you much more choice- your fuel and how you obtain it are all up to you to implement.

I can think if few instances when a PFR is not helpful. I would wager that almost every single factorio player has an un-nerfed PFR in their pack. (I have no evidence to back this up but I'd still make that wager). If every single player uses the PFR every single time, is that not evident that the PFR is too powerful?

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Re: Nerf the Portable Fusion Reactor?

Post by epr »

adamwong246 wrote: ↑
Thu Jan 28, 2021 1:59 am
5thHorseman wrote: ↑
Thu Jan 28, 2021 1:52 am

And belts, which run forever for free.
IMHO, belts should require power. Not every belt-tile need be under an electric pole, but at least one, and it should transmit power to all belt-tiles connected to it.

Did I mention I thought vanilla was too easy?
Dunning-Kruger

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Re: Nerf the Portable Fusion Reactor?

Post by adamwong246 »

epr wrote: ↑
Mon Feb 01, 2021 8:00 pm
Dunning-Kruger
Is this an insult or am I misreading you?

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