Nerf the Portable Fusion Reactor?

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Is the Personal Fusion Reactor overpowered?

No
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85%
Yes
7
15%
 
Total votes: 46

coppercoil
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Re: Nerf the Portable Fusion Reactor?

Post by coppercoil »

I agree with OP. All Factorio entities follow the rule "fuel is a consumable resource", and this point is consistent along entire gameplay, except Portable Reactor.
Ok, let's say we don't care about consistency. Would it be fun to fuel Portable Reactors? For me, yes.

OT: I also don't like Beacons for their non-physical behavior, though they give new challenges for factory design, and they necessary for large bases.

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Re: Nerf the Portable Fusion Reactor?

Post by NotRexButCaesar »

coppercoil wrote:
Thu Jan 28, 2021 8:39 am
I agree with OP. All Factorio entities follow the rule "fuel is a consumable resource"
Would you rather have. 4x4 solaraccumulator that outputs the same power? The graphic and name are just for fun.
coppercoil wrote:
Thu Jan 28, 2021 8:39 am
OT: I also don't like Beacons for their non-physical behavior, though they give new challenges for factory design, and they necessary for large bases.
You don’t have to use them. Would you rather have an “overclock and cooling” module that draws wires to the machines?
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Re: Nerf the Portable Fusion Reactor?

Post by adamwong246 »

A 4x4 solaraccumulator is not the same as the PFR. Solar only works during the day and the PFR runs constantly.

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Re: Nerf the Portable Fusion Reactor?

Post by coppercoil »

OT about beacons

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Re: Nerf the Portable Fusion Reactor?

Post by ptx0 »

Krastorio2 has the requirement to fuel the RTG in your power armor grid.

it's pretty much not a part of the gameplay after you fill it up the first time because the fuel basically lasts forever.

that's what you build the RTG for in vanilla... built in uranium fuel that lasts forever under the relatively low power draw of the player's armor. compared to the power draw of your factory, rocket silo, lab, it's nothing.
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Re: Nerf the Portable Fusion Reactor?

Post by coppercoil »

ptx0 wrote:
Thu Jan 28, 2021 6:36 pm
it's pretty much not a part of the gameplay after you fill it up the first time because the fuel basically lasts forever.
That just means the fuel is not balanced.
The fix is simple.

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Re: Nerf the Portable Fusion Reactor?

Post by T-A-R »

Imagine like the spidertron, that belts would require PFR's to legitimize them. Belts would be end game tech :twisted: .

Factorio can be played in many ways, and what is the essence became more and more important during the years that kept passing.
While the process of making art can be considered art by itself, the honest value can only be made once it's finished. What is it, compared to what could it be.
The core loop of Factorio is building the factory, grow your spagett monster. That where they want your focus.

The best armor fit a maximum of 4 PFR's, and "only" 3 mk2 roboports can easily overpower those (Agreed batteries can help a fair bit). Stationary ports are still powerful enough to incentivize further automation over personal bots ("pave that place!").

The satisfaction of deploying construction robots are one of the biggest rewards the game has to offer. Nerving PFR's (in)directly nerves personal conbots.

By the time you consider PFR's cheap, the value of grid space had increased proportionable. It's a compromise of a mixed general multi-purpose suit, or the "grind" of swapping specialized maxed out suits (hello again, batteries).

A realistic toolbox "may" be missing wrench number 13, i'd rather have a hyper spanner when i crash land on Nauvis.
Last edited by T-A-R on Thu Jan 28, 2021 8:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Nerf the Portable Fusion Reactor?

Post by ptx0 »

coppercoil wrote:
Thu Jan 28, 2021 6:55 pm
The fix is simple.
you mean - to mod these crappy suggestions into the game instead of changing vanilla to satisfy your own feelings?

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

good one.

it's quite realistic, actually.

Voyager satellites run on RTG and they have been running for more than 40 years.
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Re: Nerf the Portable Fusion Reactor?

Post by NotRexButCaesar »

adamwong246 wrote:
Thu Jan 28, 2021 4:16 pm
A 4x4 solaraccumulator is not the same as the PFR. Solar only works during the day and the PFR runs constantly.
"solaraccumulator" That wasn't a mistake. It produces double power half the time, storing half the power for when it stops producing. (still does 750kw 100% of the time)
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Re: Nerf the Portable Fusion Reactor?

Post by coppercoil »

ptx0 wrote:
Thu Jan 28, 2021 8:51 pm
I mean Portable Energy Device should be powered by fuel that not lasts forever. That's all. You think it's crappy, I do not :)

Voyager RTGs were 470W, too weak for Factorio :mrgreen:

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Re: Nerf the Portable Fusion Reactor?

Post by NotRexButCaesar »

has anyone considered that maybe it is fueled by air? they could just add that to the item description
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Re: Nerf the Portable Fusion Reactor?

Post by Trific »

AmericanPatriot wrote:
Thu Jan 28, 2021 9:22 pm
has anyone considered that maybe it is fueled by air? they could just add that to the item description
Pretty much anything you'd put in a fusion reactor would be a gas... hmm... 🤔

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Re: Nerf the Portable Fusion Reactor?

Post by ptx0 »

coppercoil wrote:
Thu Jan 28, 2021 9:20 pm
ptx0 wrote:
Thu Jan 28, 2021 8:51 pm
I mean Portable Energy Device should be powered by fuel that not lasts forever. That's all. You think it's crappy, I do not :)

Voyager RTGs were 470W, too weak for Factorio :mrgreen:
it doesn't last forever. it lasts longer than the gameplay - basically forever was my original text... just like Voyager's power supply, can't tell if you painfully missed thy point or if you simply artfully dodged acknowledging it.
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Re: Nerf the Portable Fusion Reactor?

Post by adamwong246 »

"solaraccumulator" That wasn't a mistake. It produces double power half the time, storing half the power for when it stops producing. (still does 750kw 100% of the time)
No, that is still incorrect. They are not equivalent- a PFR runs constantly, solar only at daytime. Even with accumulators, you could accidentally exhaust your power by attacking a biter nest at night. They DO output the same theoretical capacity but they charge at different rates, over the day/night cycle.

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Re: Nerf the Portable Fusion Reactor?

Post by NotRexButCaesar »

adamwong246 wrote:
Fri Jan 29, 2021 12:48 am
No, that is still incorrect. They are not equivalent- a PFR runs constantly, solar only at daytime. Even with accumulators, you could accidentally exhaust your power by attacking a biter nest at night. They DO output the same theoretical capacity but they charge at different rates, over the day/night cycle.
Please don't assume that I am incompetent. When I said "still does 750kw 100% of the time" I meant it. It would automatically store the energy for later in such a way that 750 kw were always produced.
Last edited by NotRexButCaesar on Fri Jan 29, 2021 5:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Nerf the Portable Fusion Reactor?

Post by MEOWMI »

I alluded to this item (or was going to) in another discussion about armor grid size.

The engineer is a very unique piece in the factory, and as part of the game balance and fun, he has to be given extra strengths. One concession on that front (a right one I think) is the inclusion of this no-maintenance power supply, which while powerful, is still only for one (small) engineer with limited time and capacity in a huge, growing factory and on a huge front line against the enemy. Furthermore, despite the amazing equipment, nukes (requiring no power) are still more powerful as a personal weapon, and comparing with the factory, both artillery and base roboports will often outperform the engineer's capabilities because he simply cannot be everywhere at once, unlike the widespread machinery.

To briefly comment on power capacity, a fully kitted out laser-exoskeleton loadout or construction bot loadout still runs out of energy if fully utilized, and even in their most powerful configurations, still lose to the nuke and the permanent availability of the factory's artillery and roboports. Also, 16 portable solar panels are still strong, maybe somewhere around half as powerful as the fusion reactor, but cheaper to produce. The lack of constant power is often remediable too, by simply adding extra batteries which are high in power density.

It is also good to mention, that the relative strength of the engineer's equipment is dependent on the size of the factory. A smaller factory loses out on precious automation potential, but allows the engineer to more easily be present wherever needed, so all of the tools mentioned are always useful to varying degrees.

If there still is a need for additional perspective, I suppose it's worth noting that most of the game is balanced around the rocket launch. While it isn't the final endpoint, most of the tech and subsequent gameplay is supposed to be available by then. This happens to include the "semi-invincible mecha suit" phase, which I do think is a fun and worthwhile inclusion to the game.

I certainly won't say vanilla is the only solution and I'm glad there are mods which can and do explore different takes on the gameplay. For example, the jetpack, a mod featured in Space Exploration, is an interesting concept, requiring fuel in exchange for very versatile and fast travel (too fast in my opinion but that's another story).

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Re: Nerf the Portable Fusion Reactor?

Post by coppercoil »

ptx0 wrote:
Thu Jan 28, 2021 11:17 pm
it doesn't last forever. it lasts longer than the gameplay - basically forever was my original text... just like Voyager's power supply, can't tell if you painfully missed thy point or if you simply artfully dodged acknowledging it.
You mean "basically forever" != "forever"? I say, this difference is insignificant for the gameplay. For example, there's no real difference between infinite ammo and 100.000 ammo; this resource is still excluded from the player's interests list. Too simple, too easy.

When I play and get the PFR, I think "finally, my worries gone". But actually, no worries means no fun :). There should be new kind of worries :D. How about a fueling every hour (or every 10 minutes if using bots)? I do not need a realism here.

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Re: Nerf the Portable Fusion Reactor?

Post by Koub »

coppercoil wrote:
Fri Jan 29, 2021 8:30 am
But actually, no worries means no fun :)
I'd like to remind two things :
1) fun is very subjective. What's fun for one may - will - not be fun for everyone.
2) no worries doesn't mean no fun, but maybe no fun on that specific part buys time for more fun elsewhere, in which case the balance is positive. If it's not the case for you, remember the 1.
Koub - Please consider English is not my native language.

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Re: Nerf the Portable Fusion Reactor?

Post by coppercoil »

Koub wrote:
Fri Jan 29, 2021 8:36 am
I'd like to remind two things :
Sure. But what does it mean for the Balancing forum?
What should I write differently to not get the reminder?

Would it help if I would add we all would add words "Personally I think..." on the top of every sentence? I thought this is a default mode.

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Re: Nerf the Portable Fusion Reactor?

Post by ss_Baum »

5thHorseman wrote:
Thu Jan 28, 2021 2:45 am
I'd actually like to try a version of Factorio where belts needed power. And offshore pumps, maybe allow a tiny flow handwaved as surface tension, just enough to slowly start a steam engine that can then power the pump. Or give it a hand crank :D
I actually working on realistic powered belt's which scale to the supply and where faster belts need more energy.
viewtopic.php?f=34&t=95188

Maybe in a few days (ore weeks) there could be something.

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