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Re: I think assembling machines need some balance changes

Posted: Fri Sep 17, 2021 2:32 am
by shopt
I'm a bit confused by some of the responses comparing AMs to handcrafting. Is anyone seriously saying that handcrafting is better than AMs, and that they have avoided automating because AMs are too slow compared to handcrafting? To state the obvious, AMs allow parallelisation, both of the same step and between steps. 3 AM1s, boom, you are now faster than handcrafting until they add cloning yourself to the game.

Also any mention of AM balance that doesn't consider module slots is incomplete. IMO, AM1s are the best (for non-fluid recipes) until you consider module slots or you are space constrained. Once you do that, you realise that an AM3 with even 3 eff1s and a spd1 is going to match 3 AM1s in every way that matters and that's before you choose a better module config, use higher tier modules, or use beacons (which don't affect AM1).

Re: I think assembling machines need some balance changes

Posted: Fri Sep 17, 2021 8:38 am
by jodokus31
shopt wrote:
Fri Sep 17, 2021 2:32 am
I'm a bit confused by some of the responses comparing AMs to handcrafting. Is anyone seriously saying that handcrafting is better than AMs, and that they have avoided automating because AMs are too slow compared to handcrafting? To state the obvious, AMs allow parallelisation, both of the same step and between steps. 3 AM1s, boom, you are now faster than handcrafting until they add cloning yourself to the game.
handcrafting has some advantages, which makes it "better" than AM in some situations:
- you craft every intermediate automatically without selecting (just need the raw material)
- you can queue different products in exact quantities
- you can run around and get the product once it is finished on your person
- you don't need to micromanage the feeding and picking up, unless you have automated AM with inserters (which is costs time and resources)

Avoiding automation in the long run is of course worse, however there are some products, which don't need full automation like personal equipment, nuclear reactors.

If you takes these advantage into consideration and combine it with the bulk assembling speed of parallel AMs, you get a big boost. (f.e. crafting intermediates like gears and wires to speed up handcrafting in early game)

Re: I think assembling machines need some balance changes

Posted: Sat Sep 18, 2021 10:24 am
by shopt
jodokus31 wrote:
Fri Sep 17, 2021 8:38 am
shopt wrote:
Fri Sep 17, 2021 2:32 am
I'm a bit confused by some of the responses comparing AMs to handcrafting. Is anyone seriously saying that handcrafting is better than AMs, and that they have avoided automating because AMs are too slow compared to handcrafting? To state the obvious, AMs allow parallelisation, both of the same step and between steps. 3 AM1s, boom, you are now faster than handcrafting until they add cloning yourself to the game.
handcrafting has some advantages, which makes it "better" than AM in some situations:
- you craft every intermediate automatically without selecting (just need the raw material)
- you can queue different products in exact quantities
- you can run around and get the product once it is finished on your person
- you don't need to micromanage the feeding and picking up, unless you have automated AM with inserters (which is costs time and resources)

Avoiding automation in the long run is of course worse, however there are some products, which don't need full automation like personal equipment, nuclear reactors.

If you takes these advantage into consideration and combine it with the bulk assembling speed of parallel AMs, you get a big boost. (f.e. crafting intermediates like gears and wires to speed up handcrafting in early game)
All of that is valid, I was never trying to say that handcrafting is never the answer. I use it plenty, but the reason is never because "a machine that crafts even slower than hand-craft speed always seemed ridiculous" (and various times that sentiment has been repeated). I'm just confused as to why people are complaining that assemblers have a slower speed than handcrafting, like that's the deciding factor in whether to automate or not.

Re: I think assembling machines need some balance changes

Posted: Sat Sep 18, 2021 11:22 am
by jodokus31
shopt wrote:
Sat Sep 18, 2021 10:24 am
...but the reason is never because "a machine that crafts even slower than hand-craft speed always seemed ridiculous" (and various times that sentiment has been repeated). I'm just confused as to why people are complaining that assemblers have a slower speed than handcrafting, like that's the deciding factor in whether to automate or not.
I'm not sure where you read that. maybe quote it?

Re: I think assembling machines need some balance changes

Posted: Sat Sep 18, 2021 8:32 pm
by Silari
jodokus31 wrote:
Sat Sep 18, 2021 11:22 am
shopt wrote:
Sat Sep 18, 2021 10:24 am
...but the reason is never because "a machine that crafts even slower than hand-craft speed always seemed ridiculous" (and various times that sentiment has been repeated). I'm just confused as to why people are complaining that assemblers have a slower speed than handcrafting, like that's the deciding factor in whether to automate or not.
I'm not sure where you read that. maybe quote it?
It's literally in the OP
Even before that, progressing thru post mid-game with a machine that crafts even slower than hand-craft speed always seemed ridiculous.

Re: I think assembling machines need some balance changes

Posted: Sun Sep 19, 2021 6:55 am
by GrumpyJoe
If we are comparing handcrafting with machine speeds, can we please consider getting rid of handcrafting altogether, at least for the sake of talking about what's possible?

Factorio is about automating, the only reason to craft anything by hand seems to be that you will be a faster in the early game, compared to lazy bastard achievement.

It does not make ANY sense to handcraft faster than an AM1, but do you really want handcraft speed to be 0.2 or something?

The best solution to this would be to give the player an AM1, some power stuff and other necessary things I didn't think of now, when the game starts.


The rest is just math, you can talk about (or mod it) any speed you like. AM3 crafting speed 10, why not?
I find it strange that people want to get rid of some ratio puzzles because math is hard?

Re: I think assembling machines need some balance changes

Posted: Sun Sep 19, 2021 10:08 am
by jodokus31
Silari wrote:
Sat Sep 18, 2021 8:32 pm
jodokus31 wrote:
Sat Sep 18, 2021 11:22 am
shopt wrote:
Sat Sep 18, 2021 10:24 am
...but the reason is never because "a machine that crafts even slower than hand-craft speed always seemed ridiculous" (and various times that sentiment has been repeated). I'm just confused as to why people are complaining that assemblers have a slower speed than handcrafting, like that's the deciding factor in whether to automate or not.
I'm not sure where you read that. maybe quote it?
It's literally in the OP
Even before that, progressing thru post mid-game with a machine that crafts even slower than hand-craft speed always seemed ridiculous.
Oops :oops: I somehow ignored the introduction sentence.
I agree, that it has no big impact, if handcrafting is slower or not, it's just different.
GrumpyJoe wrote:
Sun Sep 19, 2021 6:55 am
If we are comparing handcrafting with machine speeds, can we please consider getting rid of handcrafting altogether, at least for the sake of talking about what's possible?
As much as I enjoy lazy bastard, i think handcrafting is one of the biggest QoL aspects and it helps to bootstrap faster.

Re: I think assembling machines need some balance changes

Posted: Sun Sep 19, 2021 5:22 pm
by ptx0
bormand wrote:
Mon Jan 25, 2021 1:48 pm
yktktlk wrote:
Mon Jan 25, 2021 1:31 pm
We re-did factories or start over with new games many times already.
What was ok for an early access beta isn't ok for a stable, released game. Expectations are very different and many people can be upset.

Sure, new features and small balancing changes are still possible. They already buffed productivity modules 1, for example.

But honestly, do you really had problems with steel for AM2, aside from deathworld marathon? You shouldn't compare costs and speeds to old versions, you should look at them in the current context. Does AM2 costs too much for a +50% crafting speed? I don't think so.

And while simpler ratios like 0.5x, 1x and 2x are more intuitive, "strange" ratios like 0.5x and 0.75x gave us interesting builds, like green circuits factory used by speedrunners.
well, that's your opinion. they've changed productivity post-release, etc. you can put productivity modules in uranium cell recycling.

they're allowed to change the game. it's just a game. people can get upset, i doubt they will stop playing.

Re: I think assembling machines need some balance changes

Posted: Sun Sep 19, 2021 6:04 pm
by Silari
ptx0 wrote:
Sun Sep 19, 2021 5:22 pm
well, that's your opinion. they've changed productivity post-release, etc. you can put productivity modules in uranium cell recycling.

they're allowed to change the game. it's just a game. people can get upset, i doubt they will stop playing.
You could always use productivity in fuel reprocessing. They re-added the ability to use it with the kovarex process in 0.17. Neither of those was a post release change - release means 1.0/1.1. A drastic change like that that breaks factories would be a major release to 1.2, not a 1.1.x.

Re: I think assembling machines need some balance changes

Posted: Sun Sep 19, 2021 7:02 pm
by ptx0
Silari wrote:
Sun Sep 19, 2021 6:04 pm
ptx0 wrote:
Sun Sep 19, 2021 5:22 pm
well, that's your opinion. they've changed productivity post-release, etc. you can put productivity modules in uranium cell recycling.

they're allowed to change the game. it's just a game. people can get upset, i doubt they will stop playing.
You could always use productivity in fuel reprocessing. They re-added the ability to use it with the kovarex process in 0.17. Neither of those was a post release change - release means 1.0/1.1. A drastic change like that that breaks factories would be a major release to 1.2, not a 1.1.x.
I really hate it when you guys say stuff that's blatently incorrect while simultaneously treating me like I'm some idiot child.
Screenshot_20210919_120046.png
Screenshot_20210919_120046.png (20.49 KiB) Viewed 480 times
this even broke some mods. 🤷

Re: I think assembling machines need some balance changes

Posted: Sun Sep 19, 2021 7:04 pm
by ptx0
Screenshot_20210919_120329.png
Screenshot_20210919_120329.png (14.46 KiB) Viewed 479 times

they even adjusted productivity module balance post-release. broke some builds! oh no! turns out that's not actually a problem.

Re: I think assembling machines need some balance changes

Posted: Sun Sep 19, 2021 8:10 pm
by jodokus31
ptx0 wrote:
Sun Sep 19, 2021 7:02 pm
Silari wrote:
Sun Sep 19, 2021 6:04 pm
ptx0 wrote:
Sun Sep 19, 2021 5:22 pm
well, that's your opinion. they've changed productivity post-release, etc. you can put productivity modules in uranium cell recycling.

they're allowed to change the game. it's just a game. people can get upset, i doubt they will stop playing.
You could always use productivity in fuel reprocessing. They re-added the ability to use it with the kovarex process in 0.17. Neither of those was a post release change - release means 1.0/1.1. A drastic change like that that breaks factories would be a major release to 1.2, not a 1.1.x.
I really hate it when you guys say stuff that's blatently incorrect while simultaneously treating me like I'm some idiot child.
Screenshot_20210919_120046.png

this even broke some mods. 🤷
IIRC, it was still in experimental phase of 1.1.
Final release was in 2021 according to this
https://factorio.com/blog/post/fff-364

EDIT: The actual module change was for 1.1.0
So, it was a major release

Re: I think assembling machines need some balance changes

Posted: Sun Sep 19, 2021 8:13 pm
by Silari
ptx0 wrote:
Sun Sep 19, 2021 7:02 pm
Silari wrote:
Sun Sep 19, 2021 6:04 pm
ptx0 wrote:
Sun Sep 19, 2021 5:22 pm
well, that's your opinion. they've changed productivity post-release, etc. you can put productivity modules in uranium cell recycling.

they're allowed to change the game. it's just a game. people can get upset, i doubt they will stop playing.
You could always use productivity in fuel reprocessing. They re-added the ability to use it with the kovarex process in 0.17. Neither of those was a post release change - release means 1.0/1.1. A drastic change like that that breaks factories would be a major release to 1.2, not a 1.1.x.
I really hate it when you guys say stuff that's blatently incorrect while simultaneously treating me like I'm some idiot child.
Screenshot_20210919_120046.png

this even broke some mods. 🤷
Bluh. Wiki is missing that change on the reprocessing page. I shouldn't have relied on the history, since it's always missing stuff. In any case those are still fairly minor changes which don't break existing setups at all, it just adds another option for module choice.

The productivity change was in the 1.1 update, aka a major release, which they aren't doing anymore. You can change things like that in a major release, especially ignoring if it breaks mods since they 100% break anyway with the number change, but they've said they aren't doing those anymore.

Re: I think assembling machines need some balance changes

Posted: Sun Sep 19, 2021 8:42 pm
by ptx0
jodokus31 wrote:
Sun Sep 19, 2021 8:10 pm
IIRC, it was still in experimental phase of 1.1.
Final release was in 2021 according to this
https://factorio.com/blog/post/fff-364

EDIT: The actual module change was for 1.1.0
So, it was a major release
keep shifting the goalpost however you need to feel good about yourself

Re: I think assembling machines need some balance changes

Posted: Mon Sep 20, 2021 5:45 am
by Koub
[Koub] Feel free to refocus on the original topic. The version number prod modules were changed is very far from OP's suggestion.

Re: I think assembling machines need some balance changes

Posted: Mon Sep 27, 2021 7:22 pm
by foamy
5thHorseman wrote:
Mon Jan 25, 2021 12:23 pm
I've always thought it was weird that the only thing in the game that crafts at the default crafting speed was the one thing the entire game is built around not crafting with.
Not true, oil refineries and rocket silos also craft at 1! :v