Better Nerf the Fish

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Optymistyk
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Better Nerf the Fish

Post by Optymistyk »

I'm not entirely serious on this, I don't really think Fish break the game or anything - that said fish are extremely potent when you realise biters pretty much can't kill you as long as you have enough fish in your eq. I just do this:
1) get to grenades and steel armor
2) mass produce grenades
2a) Better Explosives tech helps
3) go fishing
4) wipe out every biter nest in a 10 mile radius.
(and I do it on Deathworld)

With this setup you can destroy pretty much any biter nest until you get to big biters(and then you just need better armor and more fish). Just keep running around the nest throwing grenades at spawners. You can just ignore biters until theres so many of them that they become a problem. Then just throw one or two grenades at your feet, eat a fish -> back to nading spawners

So yeah, while I do think it's amusing, if we are talking balance then Fish may be a tiny bit overpowered. Maybe instead of insta-healing they should regenerate health over time, that way they don't make you semi-unkillable

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Re: Better Nerf the Fish

Post by valneq »

Optymistyk wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 9:54 pm
So yeah, while I do think it's amusing, if we are talking balance then Fish may be a tiny bit overpowered. Maybe instead of insta-healing they should regenerate health over time, that way they don't make you semi-unkillable
Eating one fish heals about 30% of max health and it has a cooldown. You cannot heal instantly back to full health. If you still think the health regeneration is too quick maybe adjusting the cooldown can help?

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Re: Better Nerf the Fish

Post by Ranakastrasz »

Fish conflict with grenades and other capsules, which means that if you are healing, you have significantly lower dps.
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Re: Better Nerf the Fish

Post by Optymistyk »

Ranakastrasz wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 10:11 pm
Fish conflict with grenades and other capsules, which means that if you are healing, you have significantly lower dps.
Not really, the cooldown is pretty much non existent, you can heal back to full in the time it would take to throw three grenades (and you can throw grenades very quickly). Just put fish and grenades on the quickbar and then swap back & forth when needed. On top of that you still have your main weapon you can use while throwing nades and eating fish

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Re: Better Nerf the Fish

Post by Optymistyk »

valneq wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 10:10 pm
Optymistyk wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 9:54 pm
So yeah, while I do think it's amusing, if we are talking balance then Fish may be a tiny bit overpowered. Maybe instead of insta-healing they should regenerate health over time, that way they don't make you semi-unkillable
Eating one fish heals about 30% of max health and it has a cooldown. You cannot heal instantly back to full health. If you still think the health regeneration is too quick maybe adjusting the cooldown can help?
Okay you can not heal *instantly* back to full health, but you can heal back to full health in about a second or two - either way VERY quickly. The cooldown is very short, I think it's the same as for throwing grenades. So all things considered healing up to full = not throwing 3 nades = less that 2s = biters can't kill you. All the while you still have your main weapon you can use while eating/nading.

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Re: Better Nerf the Fish

Post by Ranakastrasz »

Eh, i watched a deathworld island video where they had to constantly switch between the two. But it IS a degenerate case, so is only rarely an issue. Still, in a situation where you need maximum dps and tech/resources are severely limited, i apperantly can matter

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=66wFVN9mGBw
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Re: Better Nerf the Fish

Post by Yoyobuae »

Small biters are just super easy to cheese, and I don't think that's unintentional either.

Anyway, clearing bases is just half of the equation. You kinda have to defend that territory or biters will just expand right back into it. Specially since clearing many spawners drives up evolution meaning biter expansion speeds up.

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Re: Better Nerf the Fish

Post by Optymistyk »

Yoyobuae wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 6:42 am
Small biters are just super easy to cheese, and I don't think that's unintentional either.

Anyway, clearing bases is just half of the equation. You kinda have to defend that territory or biters will just expand right back into it. Specially since clearing many spawners drives up evolution meaning biter expansion speeds up.
I don't see it that way. Wiping out all nearby nests will drastically decrease the size and frequency of biter attacks on your base so you can get away with weaker defenses. So I see it as an investment - I spend some time clearing nests so that I don't have to be constantly replacing turrets and ammo later

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Re: Better Nerf the Fish

Post by Yoyobuae »

Optymistyk wrote:
Wed Nov 25, 2020 3:22 pm
I don't see it that way. Wiping out all nearby nests will drastically decrease the size and frequency of biter attacks on your base so you can get away with weaker defenses. So I see it as an investment - I spend some time clearing nests so that I don't have to be constantly replacing turrets and ammo later
One can get away with zero defenses, even without clearing all nearby nests. ;)

The point is: Biters are rather trivial to deal with, specially at the start. It's just like making power, it's supposed to be easy because it's not even the main focus of the game.

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Re: Better Nerf the Fish

Post by Optymistyk »

Yoyobuae wrote:
Wed Nov 25, 2020 3:38 pm

One can get away with zero defenses, even without clearing all nearby nests. ;)

The point is: Biters are rather trivial to deal with, specially at the start. It's just like making power, it's supposed to be easy because it's not even the main focus of the game.
I wouldn't say deathworld biters are trivial to deal with. But yeah with this they are a whole lot easier

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Re: Better Nerf the Fish

Post by jodokus31 »

Optymistyk wrote:
Wed Nov 25, 2020 3:22 pm

I don't see it that way. Wiping out all nearby nests will drastically decrease the size and frequency of biter attacks on your base so you can get away with weaker defenses. So I see it as an investment - I spend some time clearing nests so that I don't have to be constantly replacing turrets and ammo later
Deathworld esp. marathon is a race against biter evolution. You should gauge if it's worth to destroy which biter base. Medium biters and spitters are tough to defend with just turrets f.e. If oil is far.
It also depends on map. If you have not much trees, the pollution just spreads further and you have not so much advantage vs. increased evolution.
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Re: Better Nerf the Fish

Post by Yoyobuae »

Optymistyk wrote:
Wed Nov 25, 2020 4:15 pm
I wouldn't say deathworld biters are trivial to deal with. But yeah with this they are a whole lot easier
Deathworld you say?

I'd like to present to you my Pacifist Deathworld run so far (pacifist = not allowed to kill biters):
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Screenshot_2020-11-25_11-18-49.png
Screenshot_2020-11-25_11-18-49.png (508.39 KiB) Viewed 501 times

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Re: Better Nerf the Fish

Post by Optymistyk »

Yoyobuae wrote:
Wed Nov 25, 2020 4:22 pm

Deathworld you say?

I'd like to present to you my Pacifist Deathworld run so far (pacifist = not allowed to kill biters):
That is quite interesting, if I had to take a guess on how you did this I'd say you would turn off your factory every now and then and wait for the pollution to be absorbed by the trees. You should also consider using efficiency modules, cuz they reduce pollution generation up to 80% and I can see you're not using them despite having red circuits...

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Re: Better Nerf the Fish

Post by Yoyobuae »

Optymistyk wrote:
Wed Nov 25, 2020 4:48 pm
That is quite interesting, if I had to take a guess on how you did this I'd say you would turn off your factory every now and then and wait for the pollution to be absorbed by the trees. You should also consider using efficiency modules, cuz they reduce pollution generation up to 80% and I can see you're not using them despite having red circuits...
I am using efficiency modules, it's just a bit hard to see in that screenshot. Here's higher res version (zoom in to see):
https://drive.google.com/file/d/12Blx4v ... sp=sharing

Also in a factory the pollution generation is heavily weighted towards mining drills and furnaces, and I don't have either of those running full time or anywhere near my main factory.

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Re: Better Nerf the Fish

Post by Optymistyk »

Yoyobuae wrote:
Wed Nov 25, 2020 5:27 pm
I am using efficiency modules, it's just a bit hard to see in that screenshot. Here's higher res version (zoom in to see):
https://drive.google.com/file/d/12Blx4v ... sp=sharing

Also in a factory the pollution generation is heavily weighted towards mining drills and furnaces, and I don't have either of those running full time or anywhere near my main factory.
So it would seem you are transporting all materials by car and putting them in chests? That's a lot of manual labor

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Re: Better Nerf the Fish

Post by Yoyobuae »

Optymistyk wrote:
Wed Nov 25, 2020 6:32 pm
So it would seem you are transporting all materials by car and putting them in chests? That's a lot of manual labor
There are two options:
  • Have just a handful of mining drills to avoid pollution from ever reaching biters
  • Place as many mining drills as possible and gather resources as quickly as possible. And when the angry biters come you just pick up everything and leave
Turns out the second option is the fastest. Though maybe efficiency modules would allow an automated mining operation in the starting area.

Outside of the starting area though, not a chance.

Also carrying huge amounts iron and copper plates can be totally cheesed by using handcrafting queue as infinite storage space. ;)

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