Also, as already mentioned, bigger ammo magazines would make gun turret pushing even *more* overpowered than it is now.
(Maybe it would be fine for red (not yellow and not even green) ammo only, because you indeed have grenades at that point anyway ?
And if less than 32 bullets per turret was enough, maybe there was no need for a warning anyway ?)
Dmytrozern wrote: ↑
Wed Dec 29, 2021 12:23 pm
Also, a range boost would be nice, since it's not really logical for something that is spitted to fly more distance than a bullet.
Nauvis' "aliens" are not logical anyway. Gameplay >>> Realism.
Yeah, I'd like to expand on this (from the first post) :
Nefrums wrote: ↑
Mon Aug 24, 2020 11:29 am
Given mid game tech level. red/green/military/blue science available, but not yellow/purple
To me it feels wrong that gun turrets require 8x the power as laser turrets do. The infrastructure required to feed gun turrets with ammo dwarfs all other kind of defense. I still do believe that players should be encouraged to move to better kinds of defenses, but the gap between using gun turrets and flame turrets is just to large.
Flame turrets is available early, requires a totally insignificant amount of fuel and has way better single target dps in addition to aoe damage. This makes defense very trivial from early in the game, if you use them.
With the new balance that has stabilized towards the end of the 0.17 beta, I'd say that with laser turrets and conbots having been moved to blue science, has been made even clearer the gap between :
- "Early-Mid Game" : first oil, but no blue science yet. Includes Flame Turrets and manually laid Minefields.
- "Mid Game" : blue research, except Nuclear. Arguably also includes the expensive
tier 3 & 4 physical projectile damage techs (even though they need milsci, but not blue sci yet).
(I would also suggest that being able to afford & set up complete roboport coverage (electric drain !) and/or vast solar fields with accumulator backups belongs to even later
than this "Mid Game" phase, and so is indeed offtopic.)
And so flame turrets are not just so much better
than lasers or gun turrets (with damage upgrade 2 at best, so especially against blue biters, which are a dreaded fairly hard counter at that point), flame turrets are available much earlier too !
(Even minefields kind of lag flame turrets, because slightly more expensive to research, and require bringing oil and water near each other, which might or might not be straightforward depending on map. Minefields are great in forested areas though. EDIT : But unlike flame turrets, they're not almost free to "operate".)
So by the point where you can get laser turrets (or even minefields !), you could have already had set up a whole flame-based almost impervious defense for quite some time...
Also consider the turret pushing balance :
What kind of boiler overbuilding does it take to assault a blue biter/spitter/worm nest with laser turrets ?
(And what does it do to your pollution levels ? AFAIK pollution from burning flame turret oils is negligible.)
How do laser turrets fare against blue worms ? (Flame turrets, even though they have lower range than blue worms, are *just* long ranged enough and resistant enough for these nest assaults to work well and for the player to stay mostly safe even without modular armor.)
I'm doubtful of the supposed construction high cost : flame turrets work very well even with sparse coverage :
(Modded, but biters are untouched.)
They're also much more resistant to "biter sabotage" than at least lasers : a completely disconnected flame turret can still fire for 33 seconds (or is that 67 ?)
(Be careful to lay them out so that a destroyed turret doesn't cut your pipeline, but *also* consider connecting (both of !) their tips with underground pipes only (not like in that screenshot) : +50% HP compared to normal pipes.)
BicycleEater wrote: ↑
Sun Sep 19, 2021 1:17 pm
Also for gun turrets you still need power for the inserters, which means you will need an isolated electricity grid (which is always a pain), and the guns will still need more repair/replace than the equivalent lasers. It is also a challenge to make the guns good enough that they don't just immediately fall when attacked, particularly as they are so rubbish.
As already mentioned, it's not mandatory - a bullet & fuel belt with burner inserters is an option
(Though it *is* more fragile to spitter area damage than long inserters - overbuilding to minimize time under fire might be viable until at least behemoth spitters ?)
While for far away outposts, train unload pumps or unbarrelling *do* need electricity.
Two other somewhat weird defense options that *might* be appropriate to this stage of the game and that haven't been mentioned yet are :
- train walls
- and... just a ton of walls until you can get there to deal with the threat !