Spidertrons need to be damaged by explosions

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x2605
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Spidertrons need to be damaged by explosions

Post by x2605 »

Currently due to spidertron's torso have no collision mask, spider is completely immune to almost every explosive attacks,
such as grenades, tank-cannons, railgun, landmine, shotguns, tank-flamethrower, artillery fire, explosive-rocket(only splash part ignored), and flamethrowers(only flame on ground can damage).

Yes, instead, it's better to see what can hit spider.
Only magazines, laser or electric beam, melee, direct hit of acid spit, rocket(direct hit), and atomic-bomb can damage spider.

One funny thing is that artillery on other force which is not ceasing fire automatically aims and fires to enemy spidertrons, eventhough arty never can damage spider.
It's so silly.

Another silly thing is that tank or car impact on spider leg, only tank or car hurts.

I wrote a mod/non-mod vanilla lua script to damage spider with explosions and tested it, it was quite good.
https://mods.factorio.com/mod/damageable-spider-leg
Spider legs are another individual entities, and they can be damaged if their destructible flag is on.
Due to leg's collision mask is sticked with ground, they can be damaged by explosions.
Leg have 100 hp each.
But if at least 1 of 8 leg dies, entire spider is disappears without any effect nor firing die event.
To prevent disappearing and make them to "share health" with torso, i wrote code to send damage which leg get to torso.

It's more reasonable to damage spider with any weapon, because it is immune to too many things.
I think developers never thought about using spidertron in pvp situations.
English is not my native language. Sorry for bad English.
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Re: Spidertrons need to be damaged by explosions

Post by darkfrei »

Let spidertron lose legs, less legs = slower speed.

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Re: Spidertrons need to be damaged by explosions

Post by AmericanPatriot »

darkfrei wrote:
Sun Aug 23, 2020 2:33 pm
Let spidertron lose legs, less legs = slower speed.
Would you be able to replenish them somehow?
:D

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Re: Spidertrons need to be damaged by explosions

Post by Rseding91 »

x2605 wrote:
Sun Aug 23, 2020 11:37 am
I think developers never thought about using spidertron in pvp situations.
Factorio is a single player or cooperative multiplayer game. It was developed and balanced around that for the last 6-7 years.

The fact 'pvp' exists is fine but none of the game is built around it and is entirely up to whoever is trying to do that to make it work how they want.
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Re: Spidertrons need to be damaged by explosions

Post by sparr »

Even without PVP, [accidental] [self] friendly fire should be at least as dangerous in spidertron as in a tank.

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Re: Spidertrons need to be damaged by explosions

Post by Goose »

Along with this, spidertrons can't actually proc enemy landmines or be damaged by shotgun shells.

I would argue that there is some value to adding these features beyond just PvP that also enhance the singleplayer/cooperative experiences.
x2605 wrote:
Sun Aug 23, 2020 11:37 am
I think developers never thought about using spidertron in pvp situations.
Spidertron is the only "entity" in the game that has resistance to both lasers and the destroyer robot's electricity beams. Both of which (in vanilla) are PvP specific damage types.

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Re: Spidertrons need to be damaged by explosions

Post by x2605 »

Goose wrote:
Sun Aug 23, 2020 9:32 pm
Both of which (in vanilla) are PvP specific damage types.
Oh, yes it is. Then I think spidertron pvp balance is incomplete and buggy.
Because arties still try to aim and attack spidertron automatically but cannot damage it.
It's silly. Opponent arties are just wasting shells to nothing.
Arty-spider relation should be recognized as bug if develpers had considered pvp situation at least.

Making spider to be damaged by explosion, or turning off spider to be targeted by arty,
developers have to do one of these.
English is not my native language. Sorry for bad English.
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Re: Spidertrons need to be damaged by explosions

Post by Goose »

x2605 wrote:
Sun Aug 23, 2020 10:32 pm
Goose wrote:
Sun Aug 23, 2020 9:32 pm
Both of which (in vanilla) are PvP specific damage types.
Oh, yes it is. Then I think spidertron pvp balance is incomplete and buggy.
Because arties still try to aim and attack spidertron automatically but cannot damage it.
It's silly. Opponent arties are just wasting shells to nothing.
Arty-spider relation should be recognized as bug if develpers had considered pvp situation at least.

Making spider to be damaged by explosion, or turning off spider to be targeted by arty,
developers have to do one of these.
Speculation: We do know that spidertron was a little rushed for 1.0 .Perhaps It was delayed because of time constraints or conflicting development ideas? The fact that it has resistance to Player specific attacks and is targeted by artillery could lead one to believe that it at least was planned to be aimed for some balance in pvp. All the more reason to be excited for 1.1 to see what was still planned :D

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Re: Spidertrons need to be damaged by explosions

Post by Hannu »

sparr wrote:
Sun Aug 23, 2020 6:50 pm
Even without PVP, [accidental] [self] friendly fire should be at least as dangerous in spidertron as in a tank.
No thanks. If spidertron took damage from explosions destroying massive biter colonies would become very impractical because spidertron would destroy itself with own rockets. Now it is usable for large scale area expansions at late game when half of area are biter colonies. So far only tolerable option has been clearing biters with commands. PVP gamers have to mod game for their needs in any case. They or deathworld extremists can mod spidertron as weak as they want but in my opinion game needs fast and straightforward method to clear biters in masses at end game when biters have become resource sink instead of threat. I like rockets because they need resources to build. Solution to artillery problem would be take spidertron away form automatically targeted objects.

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Re: Spidertrons need to be damaged by explosions

Post by Kyralessa »

Goose wrote:
Sun Aug 23, 2020 9:32 pm
Along with this, spidertrons can't actually proc enemy landmines or be damaged by shotgun shells.
What is wrong with the word "trigger" or the phrase "set off"?

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Re: Spidertrons need to be damaged by explosions

Post by lois lane balancer »

Hannu wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 10:57 am
game needs fast and straightforward method to clear biters in masses at end game
Yes, that's called artillery. If it's not fast enough for you, bring more artillery or research more shooting speed. If it doesn't clear enough space, research more range.
Or bring more spidertrons. It's trivial to put half a dozen remotes in the shortcut bar and direct the actions of six PLD-machines from the other side of the world. Give them normal rockets and they can't hurt each other, or just cram more spiders with more lasers in the same area and melt the bugs.
Or pilot your own spidertron full of tactical problem solvers and aim them instead of having a seizure on the mouse or letting auto-aim drop rockets on your feet.

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Re: Spidertrons need to be damaged by explosions

Post by MEOWMI »

I imagine one good reason for spidertron legs not taking collision is to prevent you from utterly dying to trains, unless they already get around this by not allowing it to path onto rails.

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Re: Spidertrons need to be damaged by explosions

Post by Hannu »

lois lane balancer wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 7:52 pm
Yes, that's called artillery. If it's not fast enough for you, bring more artillery or research more shooting speed. If it doesn't clear enough space, research more range.
I do not like artillery. I have to build massive defenses around artillery base and move them always I move the cannon because it can not hit biters. It would be excellent defense gun to keep neighborhood clear, but I want to have bases near my walls to keep defense logistic active.
Or bring more spidertrons. It's trivial to put half a dozen remotes in the shortcut bar and direct the actions of six PLD-machines from the other side of the world.
Good luck to you if simultaneous controlling of six units is trivial to you. For my skills one is enough.
Give them normal rockets and they can't hurt each other,
Normal rockets can not hurt behemoth enemies too.
or just cram more spiders with more lasers in the same area and melt the bugs.
I do not like personal lasers and never use them. In my opinion defense must cost resources in logistic game. Free overpowered laser defense is completely no brainer solution. If I want easy no brainer solution I use commands. They are much more effective.
Or pilot your own spidertron full of tactical problem solvers and aim them instead of having a seizure on the mouse or letting auto-aim drop rockets on your feet.
I do not want to be actitve combatant. If I wanted, I would play war games instead of Factorio. Automatic firing is necessary if I have to kill tens of thousands of enemy units. I have also some wrist problems and could not click 10000 times in on evening.

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Re: Spidertrons need to be damaged by explosions

Post by lois lane balancer »

Hannu wrote:
Fri Oct 23, 2020 9:47 am
snip
If you don't want to use the highly effective tools the game provides to you for the express purpose of the thing you desire, you shouldn't be complaining about the difficulty of the thing you desire. You are doing it wrong.

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Re: Spidertrons need to be damaged by explosions

Post by jodokus31 »

lois lane balancer wrote:
Fri Oct 23, 2020 6:56 pm
Hannu wrote:
Fri Oct 23, 2020 9:47 am
snip
If you don't want to use the highly effective tools the game provides to you for the express purpose of the thing you desire, you shouldn't be complaining about the difficulty of the thing you desire. You are doing it wrong.
He just wants spidertron to remain like it is instead of clearing bases with command. Valid opinion. Nothing wrong with that in a sandbox game

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Re: Spidertrons need to be damaged by explosions

Post by ptx0 »

lois lane balancer wrote:
Fri Oct 23, 2020 6:56 pm
Hannu wrote:
Fri Oct 23, 2020 9:47 am
snip
If you don't want to use the highly effective tools the game provides to you for the express purpose of the thing you desire, you shouldn't be complaining about the difficulty of the thing you desire. You are doing it wrong.
hello mr. i-have-ten-posts, you're discussing something completely unrelated to the thread, can you go somewhere else?

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Re: Spidertrons need to be damaged by explosions

Post by AmericanPatriot »

ptx0 wrote:
Sat Oct 24, 2020 5:52 pm
hello mr. i-have-ten-posts, you're discussing something completely unrelated to the thread, can you go somewhere else?
The number of posts he has should not affect your evaluation of his ideas.

This thing is related to the thread.

Even if you or I disagree with him, we should degrade him in a way that doesn’t contribute to the discussion.
:D

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Re: Spidertrons need to be damaged by explosions

Post by AmericanPatriot »

lois lane balancer wrote:
Fri Oct 23, 2020 6:56 pm
Hannu wrote:
Fri Oct 23, 2020 9:47 am
snip
If you don't want to use the highly effective tools the game provides to you for the express purpose of the thing you desire, you shouldn't be complaining about the difficulty of the thing you desire. You are doing it wrong.
He isn’t complaining about the difficulty of the game, he is advocating for a system he likes to not be nerfed.
:D

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Re: Spidertrons need to be damaged by explosions

Post by AmericanPatriot »

Hannu wrote:
Fri Oct 23, 2020 9:47 am
Have you considered a tileable expanding wall blueprint? You just place wall/artillery modules one after another to expand and can remove it when you are done.
:D

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